IDEAS FOR RYZOM

I got your point and i don't argue the fact that, when numbers on battlefield are even or close to it, launchers provide huge advantage. They are indeed a force multiplier and you can beat 100 with 50, if you got a lot of them. But at some point it's not enough to overcome massive heals. Besides, "train for launcher ASAP" is not a tactic and neither training ele magic or 2H melee. Getting levels and gear it's preparation for PvP. But when it comes to actual battle there isn't much tactic in use of big guns. Shoot guards if you can get in range, shoot mages if you can't. That's all. I won't call it a tactic.

And how "get as much launchers as possible" is differ from "pile in as much 250's as you can". It's the same, but instead of brute force you have to bring as much force multipliers as you can. It's not a tactic, it's extensive use of some OP'd feature. Nothing stops bigger side from using this multiplier even more extensively. In the end we'll get 100 launchers vs 50 launchers. Guess which side is going to win?
Enchants can be resisted, they drain HP and sap, that means more work for your healers and if you don't have enough of them... Well, we are back to the numbers factor. Whatever you do with enchants, you can't beat the importance of sheer DPS or healing, can you? If everyone from Side B in my example (50 people) cast an offensive enchant, say stun spell, and all the enchants land... They have disabled 50 opponents at best. Doesn't matter, there is 50 more that will either crush them, while they hold the links, or heal up the stunned. Again, numbers win. If Side B casts elemental enchants, that increase their DPS for a bit, but not much. Casting high damage enchants will drain them a lot, surely it's better they'd cast "real" spells and swing their weapons instead, isn't it?

Nevermind. Lets say Side B somehow managed to crush Side A, thanks to Super Secret tactics. To trigger Defense stage at relevant OP they have to win 6 or 7 rounds. That's 30 and 35 minutes respectively. IIRC, the longest runs between respawn points and Outposts are about 10 minutes tops. Make it 15 minutes. Side A still got 15-20 minutes, plenty of time to respawn, heal up and come back to crush Side B. Surely their awesome Super Secret tactic will help them to kick out bigger force for second time in a row? Not to mention that for now Side B gotta deal with NPC as well?..

My point is - due to OP battles design smaller force can't beat bigger force. Of course, there are exceptions. Half of bigger force is low level characters, getting killed with one nuke, or they all wear choice gear, or half of them went AFK, or they scatter around every freaking time, picked out one by one, or something else. But you can't beat competent bigger team with smaller team, can you? Even if the bigger team is clueless, you can win against them for how many times? Two, three, ten?.. Surely, bigger force won't get smarter a bit and come to defeat smaller force? 

Now, i don't care what faction win or lose atm. However i do care about mass PvP getting boring for every side. Bigger team comes for a battle - they roflstomp opponents in first round and then all they have to do is killing NPC. Smaller team gets wiped every time, and eventually people start quitting and don't come at all. But again - turning OP battles into WoW battlegrounds isn't an option.

Training launcher is a valid tactic that will increase your wins at OPs. If the side of 50 had 30 launchers how do you think a battle would go? Its funny some people work so hard farming mobs for boosted gear yet don't train a simple skill that is extremely effective.

You miss the point. If a healer uses a bomb heal and then enchant bomb heals in between they double up in power. This can keep up with the increased sap usage from nukers doing enchant nukes with normal nukes. This turns one team into two. Also turns 50 into 100.

And 100 in 200... we're now 100 vs 200... your point is?

As you keep adding people, you don't end up with a linear increase in power, but below the theoretical maximum. That is obviously because the pool for masters is limited, and you start bringing in people with levels way below that. Also, a loosely knit group reacts with more difficulty than a group that's constantly communicating during the battle.

As an example, kami has miserably failed before when 4 OPs were attacked simultaneously (some months ago), getting all of them to phase 2. As another recent example, when Loria+Ginti were attacked, the defender force split to check out Ginti, and failed to come back in time when called; both OPs went to phase 2 because of mistakes.

Hence Virg's (and Casy's) point: the smaller group can overcome odds, up to a point. Attacking with 20 launchers and making full use of enchants is something the larger "side" will not be doing with the same efficiency, because of the more varied spread of gameplay skill and toon skil.

Hope I managed to translate english-english well.

Thanks, makes more sense but, I still believe quantity super-seeds quality the way it is right now.

I'm sorry but I don't understand the meaning of these posts.

The issue is to find a way to have a nice battle around OP for both of sides.

The fact to have launchers is great and all. Though for me, it´s just waste of time. I don't want to explain a Non-adequate subject.

Many of Maras were 250 launchers but they can't keep with kamis number.
This issue is to open a way for fun battle. I don't think kamis are very happy to don't have challenge with us. They book a evening for and we withdraw when we see impossibility.

I believe some tactics like lure the enemy then kill him could work but to lure some enemies, you need to loose some. If we loose 6 people, and kill 30. It will be 19(with 4-5 healers) so 15 people to crush 50 ^^
Dragging aggros Will keep them busy for 1 round at most. We can't kill 80 people anyway.

The fact that karas+kamis+neutrals isn't bothering me in idea, it's just meaningless. If you want be allies and don't fight eachothers, why doesn't create only 1 faction? It seems it is the easiest solution to win against people without being disliked by relatives in others guilds. Seems like that. And because we play bad guy, we don't create issue between guilds/faction.

I never see since merge a GvG. The impression is some fears to be hated or misunderstood because of that While it´s just a fun time.

We don't give a fuck for your ally (us marauders) , but that kill the game without for some being happy to this peaceful settlement. Well, we could for both of factions to just delete them xD

Another thing for Virg : don't generalise Toak with the faction Maras. It is sad to see this accusation for us. While we are talking about dozens of people or more for yours.

We are here to find a solution for both sides to go through fun battles. One side is tired to be crushed (us Maras) and other is bored.

We(CSN , I believe evrybody know) are currently talking about this on french server. And for once time, they aren't fighting ( omg I'm surprised myself) but are agree with this situation and try to make interesting suggestions and talking to résolve this.

You should for the unique time take example on them (^^) because they are the worst usually :p

The point is that there are tactics that can even the scores. Its up to you guys to think of them and use them- I am only pointing out some tactics to prove such things actually exist.

I read through all, and can say that the proposal made by Yricl sounds sensible. It would give the outnumbered factions and alliances a chance to win an OP and get some OP mat, at least for limited time, and increase the variety of OP mats and owners. That would be favorable for all players, be they involved in PvP and OP fights or not.

Whether or not the higher skill or the higher number decides, could then be tested in the field. It is therefore not useful to speculate before having evidence.

Generally, I tend to agree to those who think that in outpost battles, the higher number gives significant advantages. There are, for example, excellent healers, even guilds of, who are not PvP elite, but can provide a constant stream of healing to their PvP experts. They do not need to try doubling bomb heal spamming by enchants but keep them to handle emergencies such as a fallen alliance member. Such a line of fencing is ways more stable and robust than one of a handful healers working at highest exertion to emulate a double number, and that for two hours in an outpost battle. Similar with attackers of any kind, by the way.

However, proving the pudding is eating it. I would welcome the proposal to be implemented, and be it experimentally for evaluation. The recent situation seems to be frustrating for everybody.

No it wouldn't. Where is your evidence for this? Don't presume to speak for all players. Limiting OP numbers would turn OPs into elitest events and prevent many people from being introduced to PvP in a fun and friendly environment.
The evidence Daomei has been presented many times by smaller numbers beating bigger numbers, some examples have been mentioned in this thread.
Of course more numbers give an advantage but the fact is smaller numbers can prevail with the right tactics. I disagree with you that they shouldn't try new things- they should new things like doubling bomb heal or any other tactic they haven't tried because their current tactics aren't working. Marauders have won in the past with smaller numbers. Now other factions have better tactics they need to up their game in reply.

Virg: You must admit that an argument "numbers do not matter" would be more credible when uttered by one of the factions with the lower numbers.

My argument stems from observations in military history as well as observation of OP battles here. Smaller numbers may be made up by tactics and training level for a while, sure. But at some point, the adverse side will have learnt and adopted the more effective tactics, or developped methods to counter them. The game of sword and shield, what strategy is all about, since millennia.

And from that point on, numeric and resource superiority will count and be decisive. No matter whether it is a superior production and recruiting base in RL wars or 20, 30 or more healers of all levels thrown into the battle for support, here. Numbers matter.

As to the proposed solution: It will reduce the battle to the elite fighters only once, afterwards, the numerically superior side is free to carry her full weight and value to the battlefield. If really tactics matter, the tactically better side will prevail even without mass support.

But such a scheme would even out chances. No defeated attacker could claim to have been outnumbered. Attacks would be encouraged and the number of OP battles increase.

And I would be ranting again everytime when they are clashing with NPC boss rounds :)

Well the marauders used to love telling me that I missed the battle where they won we far fewer numbers. "Numbers do not matter"- did I say that? are you putting words in my mouth? I say they are an advantage just like decent tactics.

Yes the other side have learnt better tactics, now it is time for the sides who aren't winning to produce some counter-tactics.

If you don't cap the number every time then whats the point?

My apologies if I misunderstood. The point of the proposal is to bring more movement into the OP battle scene. An attacker would have the chance to limit numbers once. In case of success, the attacker would become the defender next time, and the now attacking side may choose any number of participants, probably a much higher or even unlimited one.

One might see then whether better tactics or numbers are the key to success.

Hm I am not sure either. However looking with a first phase cap and second phase no cap I still don't see the point. Firstly players are limited from the first phase and if the OP doesn't go to second phase then many players will have no involvement at all. Secondy people believe the OP situation currently is due to numbers and nothing to do with tactics, so having a second phase "no cap" would not change the OP ownership.

As I understood, the cap should be valid for the whole conflict. In case the attacking side wins, it is up to the former owner, or another attacker, to choose different numbers for the next battle.