Increase the rotation of OPs to add content - IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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#41 Added by Gkr 1 decade ago [en]

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Virg (atys)

Well not a fan on naming but here are two examples of kara/marauder co-operation:
Last kara attack Toak fought for karas
Last marauder attack Izir fought for marauders

Contacted to attack the marauders? For 2v2 PVP I am assuming. Many people don't RP beyond wanting to kill the other factions- and they dont care who they team up with to kill enemies.

I believe my comments were constructive. Does seem a bit of a crying post but if that wasn't what you were doing then I apologuise. You want to make the kami and kara "actually fight each other". Well this happens in void when the kara come pvp and when we fight at OP wars.

I wont drop names, but I was contacted by kamis during season change after marauders wiped them. Basically we were fighting kamis, they were beating us, then when marauders came and wiped them, they asked us for help.

Heh, you're talking about 1 player really? you call this an alliance or a faction helping the other? I dont.

I think there's more a faction can do to the enemy faction.. but I'll stop here as we go off topic. :-)

Cheers

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#42 Added by Virg 1 decade ago [en]

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You are talking about a situation where 1 player asked you for help. Unless of course the whole kami faction agreed to ask you for help. If that were the case then you wouldn't worry about naming the 1 person.

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#43 Added by Gkr 1 decade ago [en]

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Last edited by Gkr (1 decade ago)

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#44 Added by Tumbleweed 1 decade ago [ru]

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about your tacktics thumbleweed well there are quite alot like lure ppl away from their healers (one kami are really bad in at time), so you can sloughter one by one then when a healer tries to get close enough to heal that person then kill the healers (I've seen this be used alot and don't understand ppl still falling for it) => a 50player faction could easly kill a 100 player faction this way.Another one as a defender defend away from the guards and hope the attackers forget about guards and just wanna kill the defender (great tacktic used loads of times with success)=> There are alot more that can give a smart small group the upper hand at op's (don't forget an op is not about killing ppl at all it's about getting treshold you don't need to kill a single kami/kara/mara you only need to kill guards or keep them alive)

That can work one or two times. Maybe even a couple of times. What smaller team in my example could achieve by this? Winning several rounds? OK, but each battle has 24 rounds. If Side A derped and lost some, they'll be back in 10-15 minutes, roll over Side B - and we are back at start. Only now Side B has less time to kill NPC and Side A won't be fooled again by their tactic.

Good luck finiding an q50 op atm

If some people are greedy over pixels, or use poor excuses to be greedy, that's different problem that has no relation with bad design of OP wars, don't you think? Your guild could ask someone who doesn't care much about RP to attack one of those Outposts and then transfer it to you, for example.

What I heard is that they are greatly outnumbered still they won OP battles. So even if they have millions of alts but during OP battle they are greatly outnumbered. As what you said during those time that they use 3rd party software to coordinate/manage toons to achieve one goal. I believe this coordination/manage toons can be done among actual players to achieve one goal without using 3rd party software.

They weren't *greatly* outnumbered. Numbers were about equal or with slight advantage at opposing side. But their opponents' levels varied between 250's and low-level toons like 150's and such, while their force consisted of 250's only, including alts. The benefit granted by use of third party software is impossible to gain without it. Try to kill a melee toon, that has five Celestial Guardian automatons healing him at once. Every CG heals up to 3k hit points with one spell. That's 15k hit points healed every three seconds or so. So if you want to kill said toon, you gotta have at least six AoDs nuking him in similar fashion to beat the healing, that's before you even count magic resists, which actually makes it ten AoDs. And if said character is killed, next second he's up, because his bots cast heals non-stop, with person behind the characters pressing just one or two keys. You can't achieve that kind of coordination, with every character acting like one, casting same spell within a second, if you don't have some software transmitting signals to multiple clients at once.

Firstly Side B should sort their lives out and train launcher- its not hard to do. When Asylum began our campaign for the OPs we trained hard, dug mats and organized all the kami launchers in a combined effort. Both sides used to be very equal. Secondly launchers aren't hard to deal with. Get tanks on them firing madness enchants, get a master affy linking them- whatever floats your boat. Adding more tactics Side B should focus on just killing the guards not wiping the other side depending on the phase. I could go on and on. There are a lot more tactics going on during OP wars than meets the eye.

So, in the situation i've described, Side B have to give up and come back a month or two later, when they'll have enough launchers?.. Lets assume, they managed to neutralise Side A's launcher team for a while. They still have about 90 other players to deal with. What they have to do, given said 90 players ain't gonna stay still and watch them killing their Bombardiers?.. Do i get it right - in described situation Side B can't win? And even if they win, their success gonna be completely nullified by Side A returning to the battle few rounds later? What tactic might allow outnumbered Side B to win every encounter against bigger side during two hours? Please explain.

To get it stright - i 100% agreed that current OP battle mechanic got to be revamped somehow, but the proposal to implement any limits, be it numbers or anything else, is just wrong.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Tumbleweed (1 decade ago)

#45 Added by Virg 1 decade ago [en]

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tumbleweed

So, in the situation i've described, Side B have to give up and come back a month or two later, when they'll have enough launchers?.. Lets assume, they managed to neutralise Side A's launcher team for a while. They still have about 90 other players to deal with. What they have to do, given said 90 players ain't gonna stay still and watch them killing their Bombardiers?.. Do i get it right - in described situation Side B can't win? And even if they win, their success gonna be completely nullified by Side A returning to the battle few rounds later? What tactic might allow outnumbered Side B to win every encounter against bigger side during two hours? Please explain.

What I was originally stating but not very clearly is that all factions should have high level launchers- it doesn't take an awfully long time to train and they give a huge advantage. Having balanced the launcher numbers we can just look at a simple 50v100. There are many ways to turn 1 team into the worth of two. Having said this I don't really want to stick up all my tactics for everyone to read.. I don't mind talking about the worth of enchants. If you have a team who every time in between using a skill, fire an enchant they can effectively double their power. This can turn 50 people into 100. Looks like a much fairer fight then.

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#46 Added by Suboxide 1 decade ago [en]

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Tumbleweed (atys)

If some people are greedy over pixels, or use poor excuses to be greedy, that's different problem that has no relation with bad design of OP wars, don't you think? Your guild could ask someone who doesn't care much about RP to attack one of those Outposts and then transfer it to you, for example.

Yup that isn't what cookies was about. Sookies didn't want to rage war if ppl don't like it at all sides then there isn't a way to do this. (cookies was a group of same minded ppl that want to make the game better for all with help, gear, events, ... => atm it's kind of silent in there but lets hope we can restart it)

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#47 Added by Tumbleweed 1 decade ago [en]

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What I was originally stating but not very clearly is that all factions should have high level launchers

I got your point and i don't argue the fact that, when numbers on battlefield are even or close to it, launchers provide huge advantage. They are indeed a force multiplier and you can beat 100 with 50, if you got a lot of them. But at some point it's not enough to overcome massive heals. Besides, "train for launcher ASAP" is not a tactic and neither training ele magic or 2H melee. Getting levels and gear it's preparation for PvP. But when it comes to actual battle there isn't much tactic in use of big guns. Shoot guards if you can get in range, shoot mages if you can't. That's all. I won't call it a tactic.

And how "get as much launchers as possible" is differ from "pile in as much 250's as you can". It's the same, but instead of brute force you have to bring as much force multipliers as you can. It's not a tactic, it's extensive use of some OP'd feature. Nothing stops bigger side from using this multiplier even more extensively. In the end we'll get 100 launchers vs 50 launchers. Guess which side is going to win?

I don't mind talking about the worth of enchants. If you have a team who every time in between using a skill, fire an enchant they can effectively double their power. This can turn 50 people into 100. Looks like a much fairer fight then.

Enchants can be resisted, they drain HP and sap, that means more work for your healers and if you don't have enough of them... Well, we are back to the numbers factor. Whatever you do with enchants, you can't beat the importance of sheer DPS or healing, can you? If everyone from Side B in my example (50 people) cast an offensive enchant, say stun spell, and all the enchants land... They have disabled 50 opponents at best. Doesn't matter, there is 50 more that will either crush them, while they hold the links, or heal up the stunned. Again, numbers win. If Side B casts elemental enchants, that increase their DPS for a bit, but not much. Casting high damage enchants will drain them a lot, surely it's better they'd cast "real" spells and swing their weapons instead, isn't it?

Nevermind. Lets say Side B somehow managed to crush Side A, thanks to Super Secret tactics. To trigger Defense stage at relevant OP they have to win 6 or 7 rounds. That's 30 and 35 minutes respectively. IIRC, the longest runs between respawn points and Outposts are about 10 minutes tops. Make it 15 minutes. Side A still got 15-20 minutes, plenty of time to respawn, heal up and come back to crush Side B. Surely their awesome Super Secret tactic will help them to kick out bigger force for second time in a row? Not to mention that for now Side B gotta deal with NPC as well?..

My point is - due to OP battles design smaller force can't beat bigger force. Of course, there are exceptions. Half of bigger force is low level characters, getting killed with one nuke, or they all wear choice gear, or half of them went AFK, or they scatter around every freaking time, picked out one by one, or something else. But you can't beat competent bigger team with smaller team, can you? Even if the bigger team is clueless, you can win against them for how many times? Two, three, ten?.. Surely, bigger force won't get smarter a bit and come to defeat smaller force?

Now, i don't care what faction win or lose atm. However i do care about mass PvP getting boring for every side. Bigger team comes for a battle - they roflstomp opponents in first round and then all they have to do is killing NPC. Smaller team gets wiped every time, and eventually people start quitting and don't come at all. But again - turning OP battles into WoW battlegrounds isn't an option.

#48 Added by Virg 1 decade ago [en]

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Training launcher is a valid tactic that will increase your wins at OPs. If the side of 50 had 30 launchers how do you think a battle would go? Its funny some people work so hard farming mobs for boosted gear yet don't train a simple skill that is extremely effective.

You miss the point. If a healer uses a bomb heal and then enchant bomb heals in between they double up in power. This can keep up with the increased sap usage from nukers doing enchant nukes with normal nukes. This turns one team into two. Also turns 50 into 100.

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#49 Added by Gkr 1 decade ago [en]

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Virg (atys)

You miss the point. If a healer uses a bomb heal and then enchant bomb heals in between they double up in power. This can keep up with the increased sap usage from nukers doing enchant nukes with normal nukes. This turns one team into two. Also turns 50 into 100.

And 100 in 200... we're now 100 vs 200... your point is?

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Gkr (1 decade ago)

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#50 Added by Mjollren 1 decade ago [en]

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As you keep adding people, you don't end up with a linear increase in power, but below the theoretical maximum. That is obviously because the pool for masters is limited, and you start bringing in people with levels way below that. Also, a loosely knit group reacts with more difficulty than a group that's constantly communicating during the battle.

As an example, kami has miserably failed before when 4 OPs were attacked simultaneously (some months ago), getting all of them to phase 2. As another recent example, when Loria+Ginti were attacked, the defender force split to check out Ginti, and failed to come back in time when called; both OPs went to phase 2 because of mistakes.

Hence Virg's (and Casy's) point: the smaller group can overcome odds, up to a point. Attacking with 20 launchers and making full use of enchants is something the larger "side" will not be doing with the same efficiency, because of the more varied spread of gameplay skill and toon skil.

Hope I managed to translate english-english well.

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#51 Added by Gkr 1 decade ago [en]

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Mjollren (atys)

As you keep adding people, you don't end up with a linear increase in power, but below the theoretical maximum. That is obviously because the pool for masters is limited, and you start bringing in people with levels way below that. Also, a loosely knit group reacts with more difficulty than a group that's constantly communicating during the battle.

As an example, kami has miserably failed before when 4 OPs were attacked simultaneously (some months ago), getting all of them to phase 2. As another recent example, when Loria+Ginti were attacked, the defender force split to check out Ginti, and failed to come back in time when called; both OPs went to phase 2 because of mistakes.

Hence Virg's (and Casy's) point: the smaller group can overcome odds, up to a point. Attacking with 20 launchers and making full use of enchants is something the larger "side" will not be doing with the same efficiency, because of the more varied spread of gameplay skill and toon skil.

Hope I managed to translate english-english well.

Thanks, makes more sense but, I still believe quantity super-seeds quality the way it is right now.

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#52 Added by Alric 1 decade ago [en]

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I'm sorry but I don't understand the meaning of these posts.

The issue is to find a way to have a nice battle around OP for both of sides.

The fact to have launchers is great and all. Though for me, it´s just waste of time. I don't want to explain a Non-adequate subject.

Many of Maras were 250 launchers but they can't keep with kamis number.
This issue is to open a way for fun battle. I don't think kamis are very happy to don't have challenge with us. They book a evening for and we withdraw when we see impossibility.

I believe some tactics like lure the enemy then kill him could work but to lure some enemies, you need to loose some. If we loose 6 people, and kill 30. It will be 19(with 4-5 healers) so 15 people to crush 50 ^^
Dragging aggros Will keep them busy for 1 round at most. We can't kill 80 people anyway.

The fact that karas+kamis+neutrals isn't bothering me in idea, it's just meaningless. If you want be allies and don't fight eachothers, why doesn't create only 1 faction? It seems it is the easiest solution to win against people without being disliked by relatives in others guilds. Seems like that. And because we play bad guy, we don't create issue between guilds/faction.

I never see since merge a GvG. The impression is some fears to be hated or misunderstood because of that While it´s just a fun time.

We don't give a fuck for your ally (us marauders) , but that kill the game without for some being happy to this peaceful settlement. Well, we could for both of factions to just delete them xD

Another thing for Virg : don't generalise Toak with the faction Maras. It is sad to see this accusation for us. While we are talking about dozens of people or more for yours.

We are here to find a solution for both sides to go through fun battles. One side is tired to be crushed (us Maras) and other is bored.

We(CSN , I believe evrybody know) are currently talking about this on french server. And for once time, they aren't fighting ( omg I'm surprised myself) but are agree with this situation and try to make interesting suggestions and talking to résolve this.

You should for the unique time take example on them (^^) because they are the worst usually :p

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#53 Added by Virg 1 decade ago [en]

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Gkr (atys)

And 100 in 200... we're now 100 vs 200... your point is?

The point is that there are tactics that can even the scores. Its up to you guys to think of them and use them- I am only pointing out some tactics to prove such things actually exist.

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#54 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago [en]

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I read through all, and can say that the proposal made by Yricl sounds sensible. It would give the outnumbered factions and alliances a chance to win an OP and get some OP mat, at least for limited time, and increase the variety of OP mats and owners. That would be favorable for all players, be they involved in PvP and OP fights or not.

Whether or not the higher skill or the higher number decides, could then be tested in the field. It is therefore not useful to speculate before having evidence.

Generally, I tend to agree to those who think that in outpost battles, the higher number gives significant advantages. There are, for example, excellent healers, even guilds of, who are not PvP elite, but can provide a constant stream of healing to their PvP experts. They do not need to try doubling bomb heal spamming by enchants but keep them to handle emergencies such as a fallen alliance member. Such a line of fencing is ways more stable and robust than one of a handful healers working at highest exertion to emulate a double number, and that for two hours in an outpost battle. Similar with attackers of any kind, by the way.

However, proving the pudding is eating it. I would welcome the proposal to be implemented, and be it experimentally for evaluation. The recent situation seems to be frustrating for everybody.

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#55 Added by Virg 1 decade ago [en]

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Daomei

That would be favorable for all players, be they involved in PvP and OP fights or not.

No it wouldn't. Where is your evidence for this? Don't presume to speak for all players. Limiting OP numbers would turn OPs into elitest events and prevent many people from being introduced to PvP in a fun and friendly environment.

Daomei

Whether or not the higher skill or the higher number decides, could then be tested in the field. It is therefore not useful to speculate before having evidence.

The evidence Daomei has been presented many times by smaller numbers beating bigger numbers, some examples have been mentioned in this thread.

Daomei

They do not need to try doubling bomb heal spamming by enchants but keep them to handle emergencies such as a fallen alliance member.

Of course more numbers give an advantage but the fact is smaller numbers can prevail with the right tactics. I disagree with you that they shouldn't try new things- they should new things like doubling bomb heal or any other tactic they haven't tried because their current tactics aren't working. Marauders have won in the past with smaller numbers. Now other factions have better tactics they need to up their game in reply.

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