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#48 Added by Lacuna 1 decade ago [en]

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Soulflyn, sorry if I gave you impression that I was accusing you of anything. I rushed the reply and that comment was aimed at to the tone of debate that stereotypes pvp and pve players as such and such.

This thread is about a compulsory event. This is sandbox game and if people want to promote PvP, good on them. But if in doing so they want to appeal to non-pvpers you need to offer something more than a stick.

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#49 Added by Lacuna 1 decade ago [en]

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Virg (atys)

is killing suboxide a good enough reason? :)

Virg I think an event centred on killing Subox would be extremely popular, and yes maybe it would be a good reason.

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#50 Added by Jarnys 1 decade ago [en]

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Here are some things I've noticed regarding PvP here in the past.

Yes, the devs planned to have PvP from the start but right after release it only existed in the form of the Matis Arena and the duel.
Then there came Areas with PvP enabled (roots, nexus, temple war regions) which drove away a lot of people who had become accustomed to the original way.
Then outposts where added as another PvP option but this was a good addition to PvP even though there were some screams (not too many though) because it's not always war and you can SELECT to participate or not.
Then the PvP flag was added but the way it was implemented gave a big uproar from the PvP hating ones among the RPers (I know that NOT all RPers hate PvP) because they wanted to show their allegiance but didn't want to flag for PvP.

Seeing those past developments there are some conclusions that I've come to:
1) adding PvP later on is a VERY BAD idea because the existing players might be playing the game exactly because there's NO PvP
2) if PvP is changed the change has to be voluntary for all parties involved (as far as possible) otherwise there'll always be some big part of the player base that doesn't like it.
3) new things that are changed it should maintain a balance between PvP and non-PvP (I'm not saying PvE here on purpose)
4) if there are many people doing real RP there has to be a RP reason in addition to the changes if they involve a great portion of the player base (this should be the case for any mmoRPg!!)

So here are the reasons why a PvP week(end), in the way it's proposed, would be a bad idea:
1) the entire server (except for some tiny areas) would be PvP - no balance at all
2) what would be the RP reason for this? I can't think of any.

Here's how the suggestion could be modified to make it more PvE friendly:
Make only a single or few regions forced PvP for a predetermined time.
The last event in hidden source could have been used as an example for this... with the first announcement of the "war" between the Fyros and Marauders Hidden Source (and maybe the Savage Dunes as well) could have been made the same type of PvP region as the Umbra/Nexus.
Yes, it would have made tracks harder for a while but there's a RP reason for it and the PvPers would have a big region that's very much used to get some non-PvPers to try it out.
After the event the region(s) would be back to normal of course.

Some other things that could be done to promote PvP would be the following:
1) Finally implement the spires that were announced a long time ago (the concept doesn't contradict my points above) and it might lead to some additional RPers using the flag because they don't want faction X in their region. But balancing has to be kept in mind regarding teleport-restricions.
2) add new regions that are PvP only (should have happened together with the introduction of the kitin nest though as that's a nice PvE region to maintain the balance)

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#51 Added by Avvy 1 decade ago [en]

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Jarnys (atys)

Here's how the suggestion could be modified to make it more PvE friendly:
Make only a single or few regions forced PvP for a predetermined time.
The last event in hidden source could have been used as an example for this... with the first announcement of the "war" between the Fyros and Marauders Hidden Source (and maybe the Savage Dunes as well) could have been made the same type of PvP region as the Umbra/Nexus.
Yes, it would have made tracks harder for a while but there's a RP reason for it and the PvPers would have a big region that's very much used to get some non-PvPers to try it out.
After the event the region(s) would be back to normal of course.

Unless the event is very short like a day, I wouldn't say that's a great idea.

If people want to try out PvP they can always flag for it.

But my experience of these kinds of discussions (in other forums) is that PvPers don't tend to be that flexible, the more targets the better where they're concerned.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Avvy (1 decade ago)

#52 Added by Avvy 1 decade ago [en]

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Continued from my last post as it's not letting me post too much. (moderator limiting post maybe?)

PvEers (RP and not) can occupy themselves with the game content, the problem for PvPers is that they need other player characters to kill which is why they usually prefer everyone to be PvP.

Last edited by Avvy (1 decade ago)

#53 Added by Suboxide 1 decade ago [en]

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Avvy (atys)

Continued from my last post as it's not letting me post too much. (moderator limiting post maybe?)

off topic: if you use the ingame client for the forums then you are limited in the amount of text you can post, using the out of game website you aren't

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#54 Added by Jarnys 1 decade ago [en]

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Avvy (atys)

Jarnys (atys)
Here's how the suggestion could be modified to make it more PvE friendly:
Make only a single or few regions forced PvP for a predetermined time.
The last event in hidden source could have been used as an example for this... with the first announcement of the "war" between the Fyros and Marauders Hidden Source (and maybe the Savage Dunes as well) could have been made the same type of PvP region as the Umbra/Nexus.
Yes, it would have made tracks harder for a while but there's a RP reason for it and the PvPers would have a big region that's very much used to get some non-PvPers to try it out.
After the event the region(s) would be back to normal of course.

Unless the event is very short like a day, I wouldn't say that's a great idea.

If people want to try out PvP they can always flag for it.

But my experience of these kinds of discussions (in other forums) is that PvPers don't tend to be that flexible, the more targets the better where they're concerned.

The Announcement was 48hrs before the start of the fight so my proposal above would have led to the region(s) being forced PvP for ~50hrs which IMHO is still tolerable.

(PS: You should fix the quote in your post - a ] is missing)

Last edited by Jarnys (1 decade ago)

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#55 Added by Avvy 1 decade ago [en]

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Suboxide (atys)

Avvy (atys)
Continued from my last post as it's not letting me post too much. (moderator limiting post maybe?)

off topic: if you use the ingame client for the forums then you are limited in the amount of text you can post, using the out of game website you aren't

Ok thanks, wasn't aware of that.

#56 Added by Binarabi 1 decade ago [en]

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Avvy (atys)

Continued from my last post as it's not letting me post too much. (moderator limiting post maybe?)

If you post from outside of the game it can be as long as you see fit

One reason for me supporting this is that when homins like pvp and they know there will a regular pvp period of time, they they will have a reason to log in at that time and keep paying their subs. We all know homins who have left game because of a lack of pvp excitement

The other reason, as stated before, is that the game has Lore and a notable Aniro homin once said - if you do not have Lore - you have nothing and the game will die ...
I did not agree with him at the time - but on reflection, seeing the population decrease yet again, I do believe he was right

And I am trying to put my dappers where my mouth is by being tagged and must say it makes me nervous ... but give it a go

Maurauders deserve a lot of respect for taking their role - they have an extremely hard life, cannot take missions to earn dappers, cannot take rites to get for example extra 100 focus, cannot even change their hair/tattoo. I think regular RP events where homins can voluntarily tag for a purpose might be the way to go and homins who just want to dig & craft can do so, but we need to cater for our pvpers more thoughtfully than just tag up and go and attack mauro in their own city

Quote from Jarnys: Yes, the devs planned to have PvP from the start but right after release it only existed in the form of the Matis Arena and the duel.
Then there came Areas with PvP enabled (roots, nexus, temple war regions) which drove away a lot of people who had become accustomed to the original way.

Actually homins left in droves before pvp areas etc were introduced - at the time of the 1st patch, which nerphed homins considerably (some of you may remember those old days), at the same time as the nerphs WoW was released and 1000's left Atyss, an unfortunate timing

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Binarabi
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. (Bill Hicks)

#57 Added by Avvy 1 decade ago [en]

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Binarabi (atys)

And I am trying to put my dappers where my mouth is by being tagged and must say it makes me nervous ... but give it a go

I've done PvP in this game in the past. It's fun at higher levels in events like outposts but it's not much fun at lower levels. At lower levels I'd prefer to just watch, end result is about the same as you would more than likely end up healing poorly anyway.

Binarabi (atys)

Maurauders deserve a lot of respect for taking their role - they have an extremely hard life, cannot take missions to earn dappers, cannot take rites to get for example extra 100 focus, cannot even change their hair/tattoo. I think regular RP events where homins can voluntarily tag for a purpose might be the way to go and homins who just want to dig & craft can do so, but we need to cater for our pvpers more thoughtfully than just tag up and go and attack mauro in their own city

I'm all for more RP PvP events as long as there is an option where you don't have to join in. What concerns me is that as PvPers leave the game, the remaining PvPers are likely to get more desperate as their gaming experience becomes less. I've never really seen this game as a great PvP game mainly due to the long skill levelling and the fact of the low population level. Would be interesting to know what percentage of the current population are PvPers.

But after all is said, more should be done for PvPers if possible, but that shouldn't include annoying the PvEers. So by that I mean, whatever plan people come up with should take into consideration all types of players.

Last edited by Avvy (1 decade ago)

#58 Added by Jarnys 1 decade ago [en]

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Binarabi (atys)

Quote from Jarnys: Yes, the devs planned to have PvP from the start but right after release it only existed in the form of the Matis Arena and the duel.
Then there came Areas with PvP enabled (roots, nexus, temple war regions) which drove away a lot of people who had become accustomed to the original way.

Actually homins left in droves before pvp areas etc were introduced - at the time of the 1st patch, which nerphed homins considerably (some of you may remember those old days), at the same time as the nerphs WoW was released and 1000's left Atyss, an unfortunate timing

Oh... I missed the "patch 1" issue because I joined shortly after that had calmed down.. (just heard about it from others) and it's not really related to this thread as I just wanted to list all changes that were made regarding PvP ;-) please let me know if I forgot some other PvP related change though :-)

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#59 Added by Tumbleweed 1 decade ago [ru]

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Aside from trolling, the original idea is terribad for many obvious reasons. Spicing the game for those who don't want it to be spiced would only turn them off, making them either not logging in game at all or sitting in GH's and around altars chatting all day long. Very exciting. Thinking that people, not interested in PvP, suddenly would love it if you impose a PvP event on them, is naive, to say the least.

Let's be honest, Ryzom ain't a PvP gem and hardly gonna be that in forthcoming years. No PvP events whatsoever can change it and attract PvP crowd from outside of the game.

There used to be lots of PvP-oriented guilds and players back in the past. Do you ever ask yourself why did all these people quit? Had they all have stayed in game, the population would be few times bigger than now. Why PvP corporations in Eve, founded back in 2003-2005, still exsist and active ten years later, while in Ryzom all the old dedicated PvP groups vanished and the new ones, if they ever appear, don't stay for long?

My answer is that PvP in Ryzom is meaningless in general, way too ultimative about the whole "get the best gear or die" thing, has no risk of loss involved and miserable rewards. It's meh at best, especially when compared to other games, and simply not enough to attract and retain PvP players.

if you do not have Lore - you have nothing and the game will die ...

That made me chuckle a bit. Oh really? Warhammer Online has great lore. Whether you like it or not, you have to admit that it has well developed and polished lore. Yet the game has been closed in last December. Somehow the lore didn't save it from failing. What about SWG? Same story. What about SWTOR failing so bad at retaining subscribed players, despite the lore, that EA turned it into f2p? And LotRO?.. No matter what kind of lore your game has, if the game itself is crap, no lore in the world gonna save it from closure or degradation.

Last edited by Tumbleweed (1 decade ago)

#60 Added by Suboxide 1 decade ago [en]

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about the lore thing true, I loved the rules on aristople alot more where I didn't have to know what a certain tribe did and stuff was alot more fun using the simplified rules we got (all are friends and if it's an event just choose a side kill some friends and after team up with them and have fun), the only reason I'm debating to leave the game atm is all the new lore and rp rules ingame. wich are borderline crazy (some ppl really need professional help in this game like little kids saying you can't be friends with that person or you'll get karavan coodies and such)

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#61 Added by Avvy 1 decade ago [en]

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Suboxide (atys)

about the lore thing true, I loved the rules on aristople alot more where I didn't have to know what a certain tribe did and stuff was alot more fun using the simplified rules we got (all are friends and if it's an event just choose a side kill some friends and after team up with them and have fun), the only reason I'm debating to leave the game atm is all the new lore and rp rules ingame. wich are borderline crazy (some ppl really need professional help in this game like little kids saying you can't be friends with that person or you'll get karavan coodies and such)

I don't care about the lore much, just treat people like people regardless of race, lore or anything else just like in RL.

As that saying goes
Lores are made to be broken (hehe)

#62 Added by Irfidel 1 decade ago [en]

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Please allow me to bring up two points that people have brought up before (skill level and events) and look at it from a different angle.

What's the intrinsic difference of PvE versus PvP?

PvE is something folks can do alone and due to the fact that players usually choose their (NPC or mob) enemy, they choose the weapons and the level of skills. Players thus regularly choose a balanced, probably challenging, but doable enemy setup. _If_ PvE players feel like going at endgame PvE content, they choose to team up. The point here is: Everytime the player logs on, she has full choice of how and what to do in PvE. And players can participate from any skill level.

PvP is something you need at least two players to do. Often, the more, the merrier because more players involved means there's more room for tactics such as different weapons, skills, groupings, changes in combat style over time, etc. (1st difficulty)
To make it both challenging and rewarding, the fight has to be somewhat balanced on two scales: The level of the skills in use by the homins _and_ the ability to make those work best by the players. (2nd difficulty)

With that in mind, forcing PvP flag on everyone is very tough. Because I cannot choose the skill in use, I cannot choose the level of my opponent, I cannot choose the time and place. This will not be rewarding for me. It also won't be challenging. I would just be dead. Even if I'm not ganked today, eventually I will be. And I simply don't want that. Not even a single time. If I decide for myself to have a quiet evening digging near Dyron, I'm having enough trouble as it is with stray Kirostas or wandering Ocyxs. But I do see the point that PvP folks would like to have more fun and I can relate to that. Contrary of what has been said before I don't believe it's a matter of the number of targets available. Just having "victims" does not mean fun for the PvP folks. And I believe this is mutually agreed upon, too.

A few pages ago, several players already pointed out that the Nine Mektoubs event was quite a success (even if we can debate on the level of PvP or PvE this has been). For me (a partly RP player who prefers PvE) it was fun because it had a nice fit with the current storyline, because there was at least a theoretical chance that the outcome was open and changed the way the camps were or were not built, and there was no reason for _players_ to begrudge the attack. For me it was the first ever PvP activity, even though it felt mostly like PvE to me because I'm just a mid-level healer right now.

Also, several players pointed out the potential of scheduling events in general to support PvP. Looking at all the points in this post, I would like to emphasize that to the active PvP community: Like the Cookies did (and lots of others probably, too - remember I'm not active in PvP) - come up with a good idea for an event, and just do it. I would hope that if it fits into the storyline, the event team helps you with the setup (and we get something like the Nine Mektoub event). If it doesn't fit, maybe you can organize it by doing a cross-language post and calling to arms.

We have had so many threads on what new features in the game we need to make PvP more attractive. We probably won't get them because of dev time. Like we probably don't get new PvE features. The fun comes when we organize ourselves and be creative and work with (and sometimes even without) the event team to create content ourselves. We don't have the ring anymore to create landscapes and scenarios, but we can still create stories. It's a lot of work, though.

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