discussion about the 3 histories, and things related to making change. - English

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should each of the 3 rp history be merged into a single history for unity

yes
Atys: Anzhanto, Arfur, Bitttymacod, Fyranna, Jarnys, Manra, Marceline, Naema, Saphron, Tarbu, Wazkin

11 (3)

29.7%

no
Atys: Beepe, Daomei, Rasaya, Zilon

10.8%

yes and i'm willing to help
Atys: Anzhanto, Bitttymacod, Fyranna, Naema, Seternulon, Suboxide, Sygmus

7 (1)

18.9%

yes but i'm not willing to help

yes but i'm not willing to give anything up from my history
Atys: Stitch

1 (1)

2.7%

no because i'm not willing to give up anything from my history
Atys: Meagon, Rasaya

5.4%

yes and i'll give up parts of my history
Atys: Anzhanto, Arfur, Astarth, Bitttymacod, Fyranna, Naema, Rashan, Suboxide

8 (1)

21.6%

Other
Atys: Aleeskandaro, Bitttymacod, Fyranna, Zhoi

10.8%

Abstain

#35 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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In my opinion the persistent history is one of the attributes which makes Ryzom special and different. For me as a new player now nearly 3 years ago it was an amazing experience to read all the names of guilds and players from a then about 7 year long history, for example at the memorial steles for the crafters and fighters of the temple wars. So many of these players had vanished, some of them we even lost in RL as I was told by their friends. And a couple of them was still around.

Meeting those people and reading these memories - on the planet and in the forums and archives - was a great experience making this game unique in comparison with mainstream stuff with its pre-cooked storyline where the player circled in a closed time loop.

While the steles and inscriptions are gone (maybe one should think of a place to let them reappear, kind of Aniro, Arispotle, and Leanon museum), it would be cruel to wipe the memories as well. And it would deprive us of something valuable.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#36 Added by Fyranna 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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Yet you had no problem telling me that my near to 6 years of Ryzom history count for nothing. And that I'm distorting Leanon's History.

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#37 Added by Jarnys 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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Now that everyone is using their character age as an argument... I'm here since 2004 and have seen a lot of ups and downs both in RP as well as regarding Ryzom as a game and the company behind it.

I'm not and have never been a very active RPer but I participated in lots of events and other RP ocassions over the time up to now and even I am seeing the need to merge the histories.

Some things are easy to megre others will be very hard though:
Smaller events with little impact could just have been overlooked by those from the other servers (as they were by other players on the same servers as well in some cases) so they could be mashed together nearly blind.

Some big events like the temple wars can be merged with a little bit of effort (foundation already laid in this case as none of the temples survived the 2nd swarm) so we have all been hard at work, Kami- and Karavan-followers fighting each others and lots of homins disappearing from Atys.

Some Big events will need a lot of discussion though and I have faith that the event team will find a viable solution for this (eg. the nearly or full scale war between Matis and Fyros) though some recent events lead me to the conclusion that the internal communication inside the event team needs to be improved as well.

Finally some small advice that everyone could take to heart:
- Try to avoid names that were only used on one of the servers eg. instead of "TENNANT" (Aniro) use "our previous contract"
- Results that were only part of only one server could be described in another way eg. instead of "The Kami managed to get 3 sanctuaries and the Karavan only 1 temple" (Leanon) use "the Kami gave the Karavan a hard time" or "the Kami had the upper hand during the temple wars" (the final result was 2+2 on the other servers but close to nobody remembers how hard it was for each side in reality so even if the kmai had the upper hand the karavan might have been able to use their finesse to get at the materials as well and still get enough mats for their temples)

(note: I avoided topics where I'm not sure what happened on other servers)

Here a few big events that happened on all servers:
- Kami/Karavan War in Nexus (champion titles for participants)
- Kitin Invasion that lead to opening the portal Fyros <-> Zorai
- Assassination of Still Wyler during the signing of the contract basically removing the government influence on the outposts making them a guild-only matter

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#38 Added by Anzhanto 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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Also been around for a long time (title from a long ago server and I can show you a special dance, I remember the days when only Zoraï and Matis wandered the server, the Fyros and Trykers had not yet been born). I tried bringing my original character into the new server and then I started to realize some things but among them, I realized something very important:

He was born in 2519 and wandered a couple of decades before reaching Silan but that was the second time I started playing that character (I wiped him and restarted). His original birthdate back in 2004 was in 2490. It is now 2575, if I had kept the original time line for that character, he'd be 85 years old now!

Yes, time on Atys is different but that alone made me start thinking that it was time for him to either die a good death or simply vanish. He's done both over the years since 2004. :)

How OLD are your characters homins? Do you role play them old or do you fudge that bit? If you fudge that, how much else can you fudge?

Anzhanto began so I would not have to fudge so much. Also, it's nice to meet homins again for the first time. ;)

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An'Zhanto, Jeweler
Blessed by Ma-Duk
Guardian of the Theocracy
Eldest, Order of the White Lotus Guild Info

#39 Added by Fyranna 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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Well said Anzhanto.

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#40 Added by Bitttymacod 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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Well, Mabreka Cho was born in 2485 and is still capable of leading the Zorai, so it would appear that active ages of up to a century or more may be possible or even probable if the homin manages to avoid excessive wear on his Seed due to exposure to Goo or too many resurrections from violent injuries. In the case of Mabreka Cho, of course, there may be extra strength loaned to him by the Kamis.

We do know that some homins' Seeds are more fragile than those of other homins. That some of us have lasted to a significant age is simply a selection factor -- we all know of homins who have fallen by the wayside.

(Bittty was born sometime around 2530 and came to Silan in 2546 so he is somewhere around 45 JY old. His father was born some 20 JY prior, but has not been seen since the Second Swarming, but he had retired to Dyron many years before that. Bittty is beginning to feel the years, but can still beat down kitins. It takes him longer to catch his breath, though. He is also risk-averse, as any adult with experience tends to be.)

I'm still in favor of the "Budapest" solution, but wouldn't mind an "official" history merger for homins who have just arrived in the New Lands.

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#41 Added by Salazar 1 decade ago Report | Quote [de]

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Bitttymacod (atys)

Well, Mabreka Cho was born in 2485 and is still capable of leading the Zorai, so it would appear that active ages of up to a century or more may be possible or even probable if the homin manages to avoid excessive wear on his Seed due to exposure to Goo or too many resurrections from violent injuries.

Muang Hoi-Gi, the evil Zorai who initiated the assassination of Still Wyler and most likely had more exposure to Goo than any other living homin, is quite a bit older than Mabreka. He studied in Zoran under Nung and then was taken under the wings of Hoï-Cho, but broke with him when the Zorai during the First Swarming left the Old Lands, for Muang decided to stay and fight the Kitins. He's still able to give you a run for your money, this Muang.

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Salazar Caradini
Filira Matia
Royal Historian
Member of the Royal Academy of Yrkanis
First Seraph of the Order of the Argo Navis

#42 Added by Zhoi 1 decade ago Report | Quote [de]

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Anzhanto (atys)

Yes, time on Atys is different but that alone made me start thinking that it was time for him to either die a good death or simply vanish. He's done both over the years since 2004. :)

How OLD are your characters homins? Do you role play them old or do you fudge that bit? If you fudge that, how much else can you fudge?

Well, since you are with Ryzom for that long you might remember that there was an interview once with Vince about what had been planned for the aging of characters back in 2004:

A few snippets:

Dev chat : 040304

<Vince> I am Vincent D, and I am in charge of Customer Support at Nevrax amongst lots of other things
<Vince> first I want to make something clear about descendacy
<Vince> It won't be available at release, but you will get it via a patch a few weeks after
<Vince> descendancy, permanent death and growing older are all linked together, they are dependant on each other
<Vince> when you agree with your partner to have a descendance, you and you partner will start to grow older
<Vince> this will last a few months, then your character will die permanently.
<Vince> you will get one child per person
<Vince> But the child is not a noob character with 0 skill ;o)
<Vince> he has a certain percentage of his parents' skills
<Vince> the children will also have a 'special power'
<Vince> the powers also go from parents to children, so if the first child then makes his own child
<Vince> you are not forced to have a child
<Vince> you can play and live forever if you wish ;o)
<Vince> The face of your character will get older indeed
<Vince> you do need a free character slot at that time. But we might change that into a specific slot. And yes, for a while you will have the father and the child on the same account. However you cannot play both at the same time

Later on this whole idea was dropped though, and after release the FAQs on the homepage stated:
F: Altern die Charaktere?
A: Nein, die Homin sind sehr langlebig und verweilen immer im selben Alter.

(roughly translated:
Q: do characters grow older?
A: No, homins are very long-lived and stay at the same age forever)

There was also another statement by Nevrax somewhere mentioning that homins age "only very slowly".

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Zhoi (1 decade ago)

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#43 Added by Zhoi 1 decade ago Report | Quote [de]

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Now, back to topic:

Many of our roleplayers have been aware of getting into problems because of the three different server's pasts even before the server-merge. We were told back then by our Event-Team (translated from German to English by me):

Limai

Everyone knows that the events went differently on each Server/Shard. There is no perfect solution for that. The players from Aniro wish that all roleplayers should deal with the individual stories/history of other characters with tolerance and respect. Nobody shall accuse others of their stories being "wrong"/lies. We can only trust in the mutual consideration of roleplayers that they will tolerate little differences.

Nobody wants to sacrifice their character's personal past. Roleplayers want to play with respect for others and expect the same respect for themselves. The alternative would be to define an official past which would force many players and lead to disruptions of personal storylines of characters, instead of just avoiding details of specific events.

Ever since then many of us have been trying hard to avoid mentioning too many details of our specific pasts or phrase it like "in older times/in our part of the world/in our city this and that happened". Using these terms most of us were able to get along quite well I think :)

Unfortunately some players have often insisted that their own ex-server's past has to be accepted by everyone as the one and only past that should count and even should be known to everyone... This has lead to OOC-fights and players calling each other inconsiderate - you can find a number of discussions like that here in these Arispotle-forums. I remember the first argument about the war between Matis and Fyros starting on February 24th 2013 during the first Assembly of the Akenak in Pyr after the symbolic incineration of Emperor Dexton.

We political representatives also argue about the lore-differences in the texts of the 3 languages now and then, trying our best to find compromises and interpretations that will suit everyone somehow... And sometimes we need the Event-Team (playing NPCs like the respected leaders of our nations) to sort things out and tell us their current decisions and directives concerning different topics, which will at least make all of our different informations up until now not so important any longer to be a bone of contention.

So some of us are totally used to these conflicts and difficulties with ironing things out like this for a long time already as you can see.

It's okay with me to "fight it out" as long as people respect each other OOC and are doing their best to find solutions and compromises instead of selfishly demanding of everyone to just change the memories and knowledge of their characters (since the lore in the three language is STILL different if you care to compare) to what happened on another server. And how are we players even supposed to know OOC about everything that happened on other servers in detail? It's immensely hard to find out and even Google-translation sometimes cannot manage to translate some parts. Sadly some people are still trying to force other players to agree with them on "their" past only...

Sure, I would also be okay with a new history for everyone "ordered by above" just as well.

BUT in this case the Event-Team would have to work this one history out! Because I can assure you that whenever we players try to come to terms and work out compromises it hardly ever works without the interventions and decisions of the Event-Team. As I mentioned there are still those players who are not willing to accept that other characters made different experiences and even had different consolidated knowledge (lore).

And here's the major problem. We were told that some Event-Team-members have already started to take a look at the differences in the lore of the three ex-language-servers since... well, it should have been since the server-merge... which started September 29th 2012. More than one year ago. But there's still no "solution" in sight. Some Event-Team-members even do not know anything about the most obvious and biggest lore-differences when we're talking IC about such topics during political discussions...

Considering this I cannot believe that the Event-Team will be able to manage the giant heap of workload to put all three different pasts together in a compromise that everyone could be happy with. Instead the most likely solution would be to let all of us adapt to the past of one ex-server. And like Salazar I fear this "one" server could be no other than the one that had the largest population and provides the most roleplayers up to today: Aniro.

In conclusion: if you want this "one single history", you will have to learn and accept Aniro's past. Or else start all of our characters all over in RP basing them on the lore with no history at all ever since 2525.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Zhoi (1 decade ago)

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#44 Added by Anzhanto 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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Thanks Zhoi for the reminder about the long lived Homins, I forgot about that.

Zhoi

Ever since then many of us have been trying hard to avoid mentioning too many details of our specific pasts or phrase it like "in older times/in our part of the world/in our city this and that happened". Using these terms most of us were able to get along quite well :)

Now THIS presents a very real possibility to let all three histories be accurate. It would still need some form of official stamp to become LORE but that's the case no matter what.

Consider this

After the Great Swarm, the first one, homins scattered across Atys. Three large groups formed far away from each other. These groups settled back into the old nations of Fyros, Matis, Tryker and Zoraï and lived out the three different histories we all know. This was something of a Kami/Karavan scheme to try and save at least one of the three groups but, to their surprise, all three grew and flourished.

The kitin, however, felt quite threatened by three large bodies of homins and so came about the Second Swarming. The kitin drove all three groups back together. Everyone brought their histories with them. Yrkanis that we remember becomes, City/Capital of the Matis. Mabreka Cho becomes simply the Great Sage. It's not perfect because homins are so long lived that Mabreka and other NPCs have been influencing all three histories and are still alive today. It does, however, give another possibility for how the three histories might be preserved.

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An'Zhanto, Jeweler
Blessed by Ma-Duk
Guardian of the Theocracy
Eldest, Order of the White Lotus Guild Info

#45 Added by Tamarea 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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Hello,

An official answer to this topic has just be written, it will be published as soon as translated.

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Tamarea
Ryzom Team Manager
(FR / EN / ES)
tamarea@ryzom.com

#46 Added by Talkirc 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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very excited to see the reply tamarea.

i hope that this new single lore (if that's the plan) will do it's best to support parts of ALL servers, i'm not selfish enough to say ONLY aniro or ari or len's history is the one, as some players have here in this discussion. i'm say make one out of three, or for the better of the game and with the future in mind make a new history, anyone that's not willing to accept it is just out of luck, because if they make one lore, that's what you've got to work with, so like that idea, or don't like it, but that's the best way really, no options, just "here it is" because so long as this muli-history is around the new players won't become a part of the action, and may in fact just not play at all. (i already know of 2 players that i suggested ryzom to for the RP, but after they learned of the 3 histories and the conflicts of them, said they will not play until there's a single history, because as long as there's a conflict, the game is basically broken for NEW rp players.)

no one want's to make a compromise it seams, so i think the dev's should do what they do best and use FORCE. then we'll stop fighting with each other over who's history is right or wrong. for those that don't want to adapt to the new server, i'm sorry, i'd rather give up my little history for the better and the future of the game over all then be selfish and help doom the game because of it.

like it or don't but best thing would be the dev's make new history for the new signal server, because there's only one server now ppl, get used to it, and adapt to it, or move to another game, i honest am really tired of seeing everyone be selfish and demand that they're right and other's are wrong, i say your ALL WRONG, simply because your all too stubborn to adapt to a ever changing world we call ryzom.

that's my final rant on this, i've tried and tried to show that we can work together, but there's a few ppl that just are not willing to, and it's that stubbornness that's killing ryzom's rp, keeping so many that might join in away to start with.

enlighten yourself, be more flexible, bottom line is your all promoting the death of ryzom RP when you can't see past the nose on your face and work together in a game we all love together, for the better of the game, not one's personal history.

ok i'm done wasting my keystrokes.

PLEASE RYZOM DEVELOPERS CREATE A SINGLE NEW HISTORY THAT EVERYONE MUST USE, OR THE ROLEPLAY IS DOOMED, SINCE THE PLAYERS CAN'T AGREE TO WORK TOGETHER, THIS IS THE ONLY OPTION LEFT TO EXPLORE. (anyone that doesn't like that doesn't have to RP on the new server, because this is the same selfish point of view some of you display, i can start over, it won't kill me, in fact that will give my RP a whole new life)

sorry tamarea, didn't mean to go off on a rant, but it seams to me that there's really only one option left at this point to settle all issues, create a totally new history for the new server, and rp will start over new as well.

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Remickla (atys)

Other games - they give you a cookie whether you succeed or not, in fact you don't even have to participate. Ryzom takes your cookie, eats it in front of you, and slaps you 2 or 3 times for bringing a cookie in the first place.

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#47 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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Talkirc, I disagree to such a solution. It reminds me to the proverb that for every problem a solution exists that is obvious, simple .. and plain wrong.

I would not say that I would stop roleplay altogether when our past will be genocided in favor of a unified history. But much of the fun will be gone when much of our experiences will be nullified and in effect banned.

I am living in Germany where people experienced an imposed (though by most initially enthusiastically welcomed) unification of very different cultures. Nowadays not few are pretty fed up. Forced levelling will most probably not do much good.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#48 Added by Suboxide 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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only 1mil dappers if you wanna buy talkirc's rant about this in teamspeak. The file can be delivered as an *.wav *.mp3 *.ogg ...

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#49 Added by Talkirc 1 decade ago Report | Quote [en]

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now you see the point i'm making daomei, you don't like my idea, joe doesn't like bob's idea, tim doesn't like alex's idea, and so on and so forth.

i'm not saying you have to like it, but i just wish they would do it, so everyone could stop fighting about it, since YOU are one of the players not willing to change, you are one of the players that's the reason we need a forced history. be more flexible and then we won't need a forced history, but since that will never happen, the only option left is to force a single history, if that means that you stop your RP, i'm sorry you feel that way, but it just further show's that your unwilling to yeild to the greater good, for you "the needs of the ONE out weight the needs of the many" i guess.

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Remickla (atys)

Other games - they give you a cookie whether you succeed or not, in fact you don't even have to participate. Ryzom takes your cookie, eats it in front of you, and slaps you 2 or 3 times for bringing a cookie in the first place.

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