IDEAS FOR RYZOM


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#1 [en] 

one thing i have noticed in game is that the particle system and the sound associated with an effect often (in my case always) degrades the FPS of the game...in fact there is such a burst of memory usage that the game "lags" terribly when i am casting spells alone, and it is even worse when there is a group of people all casting at once...

my question is, would it be too much to ask if an option for less intensive particles or a more efficient particle system were implemented? this is possible, but it is largely due to (in my opinion from experience) textures in the particles being too large, or the particle model being too messy (such as duplicates being rendered for the same spell effect, or way too many particles per effect being rendered) and possibly in the coding of the particle systems...

i could be wrong, but i have seen particles systems go from nightmares to WOW in other games before...i was on the dev team for the "freelancer" (a space flight sim) mod "free-worlds" which is now called "free-worlds: tides of war" which merged two communities and both teams of devs to make an entirely new mod...one of the goals of the mod was to streamline the particle system so it would not be as resource intensive, and the difference was very very noticeable...it went from the heavy "lag" to almost no noticeable resource/memory drain at all... which allowed for more people on the servers and much larger battles, so realistic looking that it was almost like being in one of the star wars movies...and the particle system was still very awe inspiring...now most of it was in the coding, but some was due to texture tweaking and some bloom effects being better implemented...(like tweaking the exe to fully use the features of dx9 or the equivalent in other operating systems), now im not a coder, and i know that is a lot of work, but it might be worth taking a look at...i do understand particles systems though, and i think that may be also something worth looking at to keep the game resource usage to a minimum...the rresults will be very pleasing if improvement can be achieved...more participation, realistic no lag rendering...and just more immersion into the world of ryzom...

the second part i noticed was that the sound for effects such as spells is very resource intensive, and might be due to several sounds being called at once...which would explain a lot...and im convinced if this is the case that the sounds could be merged in a DAW (digital audio work station) cleaned up and re-combined in the multitracker, and then re-introduced so that only one sound file is played per effect...that is if this is truly the case, i dont know becasue i have not had a chance to look at the code in the scripts to see if there is more than one sound per effect being called...but its just a hunch...if this is the case then i can definitely help on that end, since i have the tools to re-master sounds right here...all it would take is for someone to share those files with me, i could combine them and remaster them, send them each back as a single file per action, and then if there is any changes to what is called in the scripts, those changes could be made one by one until each one is optimized...just an idea...

anyway, thats just my $0.02 on the particle system and room for improvement in the sound effects(if there is nothing i can do to change it from my end in the game settings)

sooo...now that im done explaining my observations, and suspicions, i want to know...am i correct? or is there a way to tweak the graphics and sounds on my end instead? if i am correct, and there is a need to clean both areas up, then im offering help to clean up the sound files for these effects, but i also understand if it is not needed, and there is already someone who is in charge of that...

#2 [en] 

Take a look at http://www.ryzomcore.org/ there might be someone who's already working on this (I know e.g. that dfighter is working on lighting right now)

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#3 [en] 

Since both the particle effects for spells and the sound for same are clientside based as far as I can tell, it is probably something in your system that is interfering.  Even other people's animations are client based, though there is a download trigger to tell your client to invoke the effect. (Particle effects for things like fog involve downloaded triggers so there is an effect on bandwidth there.  Ditto for mass battles where the server has to update the actions of many many players and NPCs.)

I found, for instance, that I couldn't get good sound if I was running a streaming radio station or any other use of my sound codecs.  (Streaming radio had two effects, one related to bandwidth and one to resource usage but even local music interfered.)

Ryzom is a memory and cpu hog, pure and simple. The single biggest thing you can do to improve performance is have at *least* 2GB of memory. By default it assigns itself to Core 1 (or core 0 if you count that way). If you have a dual core processor you can make things much better (especially for dual clients) by assigning one to each.  If you have some other application that also works "badly" (i.e. forces itself into core 1) that will cause a problem, but most modern programs are better behaved than that.

You can set the graphics settings down a bit lower in game by reducing cutoff distances, turning off "bloom" and reducing groundcover and some other stuff.  Also, you can try changing your mouse setting from hardware to software (or the other way) and try either hardware driven or OpenGL settings.  There are also some sound settings, but they are pretty minimal.

As for changing the actual coding of particle effects to reduce the load, I agree that it probably is a good idea.  However, along with reducing the greediness of the client,  new models for mobs and the like, I doubt that it is going to happen with the current apparent lack of lots of dev team people.  It does sound like something that might be attempted by the Ryzom Core people.

Hope this gives you useful information.

Bittty <<-- not a CSR or a Dev but has been around for a while.

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#4 [en] 

ok, i did look at this and there were some tickets there for working on the particles a bit, but im not sure if they apply to the server or the client side...obviously for them to work better the client needs to be updated as well as the server...so im under the impression that most of what they are doing is related to comaptibility for more systems and drivers on the server side mainly and on the client side as a secondary, and not necessarily fine tuning the particle system for each individual effect to run better overall...

the newest article i could find on particles (an announcement of the system being introduced) is about a year ago, and so im sure that nothing new has been done to the client to account for this...it was more like they were announcing the addition of new particle effects to buildings in certain areas...but they did admit that they did not fully understand the particle system they were using yet...so this admission means there is a learning curve, and not everything is ironed out yet...

im not sure if i can contact the dev team there or not to adress this issue, but i will try and put a note there or a ticket there

#5 [en] 

Bitttymacod (atys)
Since both the particle effects for spells and the sound for same are clientside based as far as I can tell, it is probably something in your system that is interfering.  Even other people's animations are client based, though there is a download trigger to tell your client to invoke the effect. (Particle effects for things like fog involve downloaded triggers so there is an effect on bandwidth there.  Ditto for mass battles where the server has to update the actions of many many players and NPCs.)

I found, for instance, that I couldn't get good sound if I was running a streaming radio station or any other use of my sound codecs.  (Streaming radio had two effects, one related to bandwidth and one to resource usage but even local music interfered.)

Ryzom is a memory and cpu hog, pure and simple. The single biggest thing you can do to improve performance is have at *least* 2GB of memory. By default it assigns itself to Core 1 (or core 0 if you count that way). If you have a dual core processor you can make things much better (especially for dual clients) by assigning one to each.  If you have some other application that also works "badly" (i.e. forces itself into core 1) that will cause a problem, but most modern programs are better behaved than that.

for the very reason that windows was a resource hog, i moved to a linux OS, and now i only use (with several memory intensive programs running at once) at most 1.9 GB of a total of 8 GB memory...i also have a dual core CPU, and i have a decent video card...so this is really frustrating...now, i dont run anything but ryzom when i log on to the server, so its not a matter of cpu or memory conflict, i really do think it is an issue of too many effects or sounds being called at one time, and im sure some fat being trimmed would not be a bad thing...it only happens during spells, other particle effects dont have the same problem, and there are many particle effects running all around even just on Silan...its only the spells cast by my PC, or spells cast by enemies that casue this burst of resource hogging...it eventually dies down again, but it can completely render movement impossible if several spell capable mobs attack at one time...this has caused me to die on a number of occaisions because i could not move at all...

#6 [en] 

You can get the attention of the dev team by posting here, or in Support thread in the forums or by sending an email to support@ryzom.com. We are assured that they do read the forums, and I know from experience that they read their email.

Don't expect instant response, however.

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#7 [en] 

no, i dont expect an instant response, just really want to make them aware of a potential problem...on a brand new system, this may not even be noticeable...but im surprised that even with my box, this is happening...i dont usually have this issue with games at all...and im talking things like assassins creed...

#8 [en] 

Grimoire
for the very reason that windows was a resource hog, i moved to a linux OS, and now i only use (with several memory intensive programs running at once) at most 1.9 GB of a total of 8 GB memory...i also have a dual core CPU, and i have a decent video card...so this is really frustrating...now, i dont run anything but ryzom when i log on to the server, so its not a matter of cpu or memory conflict, i really do think it is an issue of too many effects or sounds being called at one time, and im sure some fat being trimmed would not be a bad thing...it only happens during spells, other particle effects dont have the same problem, and there are many particle effects running all around even just on Silan...its only the spells cast by my PC, or spells cast by enemies that casue this burst of resource hogging...it eventually dies down again, but it can completely render movement impossible if several spell capable mobs attack at one time...this has caused me to die on a number of occaisions because i could not move at all...

Hmmm... That's weird. I'm on Win7 (Inspiron 570 AMD Athlon IIx2 250 with Nvidia gtx 560 Ti) and I see some slowdown for mass battles, but none when I'm zapping things solo, even multiple cratchas. This sounds like it may be a Linux client issue rather than a general issue. That being said, I would recommend escalating this to a real bug report.

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#9 [en] 

I have very few of the problems you are describing, except some lag during an OP battle or similar.  To counteer this I turn off Micro Veg and that helps considerably.

I am playing on a Mac and so I know memory etc works differently.  I have noticed that cpu usage is maxed out when playing Ryzom, but If I start another app Ryzom makes room for that.  I am very often streaming video (sometimes multiple sources) in the background with almost no ill effects.

My ping is around 200 which I know is not as good as some, better than others.   Maybe your connection is part of the problem.

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It's bad luck to be superstitious . . .



Palta e decata, nan nec ilne matala.

When one goes on a journey it is not the scenery that changes, but the traveller

#10 [en] 

I would doubt a connection issue here. Like Grimoire and Bitty I have similar, but slightly different issues: The lags usually do not hit me during battles (just returned from the Marauder Boss hunt and did not have any lags whatsoever, with about 35 homins casting spells). But I do have serious lag issues when walking or running through the streets of Pyr. Sometimes I get a fifth of a second movement, then Ryzom halts for 2 seconds or longer, then another very brief movement. This is a nightmare to work with and stopped me from doing more than the occasional visit to the Ceriakos gate and the trainers right behind it.

I had similar issues in Yrkanis when getting near the street lights there. But this has improved a lot recently. The problems in Pyr appeared maybe about six months ago on my desktop machine, but not on my laptop. Both machines were running fine before. And when I do have the problems in Pyr, the wife can still run through the town without issues - and she's on the same internet connection.

#11 [en] 

Sometimes the effect hits me in Zora as well. For me it seems realted to how many street lights (noticed the particles in their lighting?) can be seen at the same time. It get's better if I run looking at the ground or stick to dark alleys.

Speaks volumes about my character, doesn't it?

#12 [en] 

Irfidel (atys)
I would doubt a connection issue here. Like Grimoire and Bitty I have similar, but slightly different issues: The lags usually do not hit me during battles (just returned from the Marauder Boss hunt and did not have any lags whatsoever, with about 35 homins casting spells). But I do have serious lag issues when walking or running through the streets of Pyr. Sometimes I get a fifth of a second movement, then Ryzom halts for 2 seconds or longer, then another very brief movement. This is a nightmare to work with and stopped me from doing more than the occasional visit to the Ceriakos gate and the trainers right behind it.

I had similar issues in Yrkanis when getting near the street lights there. But this has improved a lot recently. The problems in Pyr appeared maybe about six months ago on my desktop machine, but not on my laptop. Both machines were running fine before. And when I do have the problems in Pyr, the wife can still run through the town without issues - and she's on the same internet connection.

so it seems that this problem is indeed particle related, and perhaps different operating systems are in different stages of update concerning the cleaning of particle systems to optimal performance...in your case it seems that group particles are running fine, and stationary effects are giving you problems, and on mine, it is the opposite...stationary particle systems that run all the time are handled correctly by the game and system, and the individual spell effects are not handled very well...

i would really be interested in finding out what is going on, or if there is indeed work being done to the particle systems in question at this time...they may be releasing incremental updates and this is why not everything is working as well as it should...

#13 [en] 

To my knowledge spells are implemented as animated geometry. You can also reduce poly count in game config and it has visible effects on the spell animations. Many other effects are implemented as shaders.

If you are having a problem with the shaders, check if you diabled some or all of them in client.cfg. There are some troubleshooting instructions that include disabling shaders. Find out if the fix is really necessary.

For you, Grimoire... you can find out more by reducing effect poly count and/or turning off sound. Turning off sound is not a mixer mute thing in ryzom, it actually disables the sound engine.

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Casy * Foreign Secretary * Alliance of Honor
Intensive Care Bear

#14 [en] 

Grimoire (atys)
one thing i have noticed in game is that the particle system and the sound associated with an effect often (in my case always) degrades the FPS of the game...in fact there is such a burst of memory usage that the game "lags" terribly when i am casting spells alone, and it is even worse when there is a group of people all casting at once...

Platform? Video card? Driver version? If you're on Linux are you using the latest proprietary driver? Don't use software or Nouveau. My hunch is that you're on Linux with Software-based Mesa or the Nouveau driver. Ryzom may have been developed in the days of the fixed pipeline but the particle system in particular does have some accelerators that are absolutely essential to perform up to standard. It sounds like you're in full software and not utilizing the GPU at all.
Grimoire (atys)
my question is, would it be too much to ask if an option for less intensive particles or a more efficient particle system were implemented? this is possible, but it is largely due to (in my opinion from experience) textures in the particles being too large, or the particle model being too messy (such as duplicates being rendered for the same spell effect, or way too many particles per effect being rendered) and possibly in the coding of the particle systems...

The particle system in Ryzom Core is fairly superb, especially considering its vintage. I don't think many of the particles implemented in-game are too intense. Maybe when you have a large number of systems running nearby (other players casting a in a large battle.)

That being said the particle system and the landscape system use a woefully small amount of the GPU due to the fact of the reality of technology when it was developed. We're attempting to upgrade the driver to a more modern OpenGL implementation and in the process hopefully begin offloading a lot of this complexity to the GPU rather than the CPU. But it's a lot of work and there's really only one person working on it part time (dfighter.)

Last edited by Aajay (1 decade ago)

#15 [en] 

Aajay (atys)
Platform? Video card? Driver version? If you're on Linux are you using the latest proprietary driver? Don't use software or Nouveau. My hunch is that you're on Linux with Software-based Mesa or the Nouveau driver. Ryzom may have been developed in the days of the fixed pipeline but the particle system in particular does have some accelerators that are absolutely essential to perform up to standard. It sounds like you're in full software and not utilizing the GPU at all.

linux mint 15 cinnamon olivia (x86-64) 1.8.8 (basically ubuntu 12.04 i think) it is a dual core system

specifics are it is an hp pavilion dv7 notebook, intel core duo 2 cpu...t6400 @ 2 GHz x2

i also have 8 GB of memory installed

my swap file is set up to be 10 GB, but only usually use around 10 MB...so its not the operating system or the capabilities, because everything native usually runs very smooth and light weight...

the driver i have in place is the proprietary Nvidia driver, (310.44 the one recommended in the proprietary driver settings from the control center) not the one that it installed at first, but the latest version compatible with linux...i have a Geforce 9600M with 32 CUDA cores, 512 MB memory, and it is set to run off of the GPU not software...im not sure if there is a hidden setting i can check to make sure it is forced to use the GPU instead of the CPU, but whatever would be better is desired...so if there is a hidden setting i could tweak i would really like to know about it...

Aajay (atys)
That being said the particle system and the landscape system use a woefully small amount of the GPU due to the fact of the reality of technology when it was developed. We're attempting to upgrade the driver to a more modern OpenGL implementation and in the process hopefully begin offloading a lot of this complexity to the GPU rather than the CPU. But it's a lot of work and there's really only one person working on it part time (dfighter.)


i get this, which is why i am boggled...now dont get me wrong i like the game, just dont understand what could make it get all choppy and bottlekneck when i cast a spell solo, or when i am in a team battle and several of us are casting spells, but this is consistent whether or not i am with a group, and only with spells...nothing else...the other particle systems dont put a heavy load on the system like spells do... and overall the game runs really smooth when i dont cast spells, but i have to level those up at some point and i cant ignore magic any longer if i want to continue my quests...

i will double check my settings, but im pretty sure they are set as optimally as possible...i can handle the highest settings, so its frustrating to bump them down just to have a hope of staying alive through a battle...

Last edited by Grimoire (1 decade ago)

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