English

Thanks, Feylin, for explaining the theories that homins have had on Aniro :)

Still I somehow cannot consider all of these IC-explanations as "logical", and I've already explained why. Just throwing Goo elsewhere (at the rims of the Witherings) even though the Zorai know that fire is able to destroy Goo and have promised the Kami to fight Goo, but still are reluctant to use fire - where's the logic in that?

"Cleansing the Land" is not about the meaning of "cleaning". In the German Lore it's even called "FREE the Land from the plague". How can one understand "The Land" as only a small area like the cities of Intuition? Shouldn't it be the whole of the jungle instead at least; including the rims - or even all of the nature of Atys that the Zorai respect?

Yes, there are tribes living in the Witherings today, so the meaning of "Nation" and "the Land" might be vague and questionable right now. But in the Old Lands it seems like the tribes have not been separated from the Zorai-people at first, only later on, at least the Lore indicates so.

I cannot believe that chieftain Cho had been a liar nor a trickster who would call relocating Goo from one place to another "cleansing" or "freeing" or "fighting", as that would still pollute the nature that the Zorai have sworn to respect.

The Zorai know that Goo does not just rot, transform, dissolve or vanish by itself. And the Zorai respect nature, which is the reason why they even are reluctant to use fire as the lore states - although it is one method known to all homins to destroy Goo...

So as the Zorai did not build forges as a relatively safe way to burn things like the Fyros did (which IS well-known to the Zorai for decades now) but still are sworn to fight the Goo, there MUST be another method known to the Zorai since older times to destroy/heal Goo.

This method (I still think it is some kind of magic like the Lore of 2004 had indicated) is viewed as not sufficient enough though; otherwise the Circles (on Leanon and Arispotle) would not have been told to search for other methods to heal the Goo.

The problem with the Goo is that it wells up from the bark, seemingly originating from the roots. Or is this part of German Lore also different from that on former Aniro? Well, even if homins CAN destroy Goo and will do so for the Kamis repeatedly, it is not really much that one homin can do.

And new Goo will still spread again after that from the ground. So this should explain why the Goo at the rims of the Witherings could and can not be destroyed - and why the Goo-tribes have their Goo-sources guarded (!) and fenced in ;) On Leanon we did not "know" about the magnetic wooden stones at the rims of the Witherings holding back the goo - but I think we can very easily integrate it :)

Please do not relate modern human society to homins too much. We as people don't know magic on earth, we cannot teleport, can't be resurrected, and so on. Homins on Atys do NOT have nuclear waste and they do NOT have vacuum cleaners - I think the Kamis might kill off all homins even before they can develop technology that would ruin the environment of Atys like we do on earth :D

How did players on Aniro explain IC why the Kamis ask homins to "clean" the land by digging out Goo-materials - and then will not tell anyone what to do with it?

Well, you have to destroy the materials game-mechanic-wise sooner or later, as it would otherwise fill all your storage-room soon :D Has this been just ignored IC on Aniro, as if the Kamis all over Atys at the altars did not ask homins to dig up Goo at all?

Magic that homins use CAN definitely be different from the magic that the Kamis use, even if the basic theories are the same. Some animals and plants "spit" magic, which homins cannot for instance. But this also is some kind of Atys-magic.

Magical effects and boosts of items are another kind of Atys-magic. We can consider that magic put onto items was either told to homins by the Kamis originally too (as the Karavan most likely didn't) or homins have found a way how to do this by themselves (not very believably)... If they did, they might have also worked with the basic knowledge of magic and over time found ways how to use magic to destroy Goo :p

But why should the Kamis not have been able to teach something that they themselves cannot use in the same way? Trainers can teach athletes how acrobatic moves are done in theory without doing them. The Kamis might very well have considered the bodies and sap of homins before teaching the homins how to use magic in the homin-way. Kamis could have taught the theory and watched homins experiment with it, finding out together what works well for homins and what does not (like spitting fire).

So as a conclusion I really don't understand why anyone could think that homins and Kamis HAVE to weave the same kind of magic in the same way? There is no logic in that, sorry.

All of this is what led me to the idea that Homins must be able to destroy small parts of the Goo with a kind of magic that works differently in homins than in Kamis. Still it can't be sufficient enough to cleanse large areas like those at the rims of the Witherings, where also still new Goo is seemingly seeping out of the ground from below; so better methods to heal the Goo are still being sought.

A Sage on Leanon once said that the bodies of Kamis "consist" of sap - hinting at that they have no flesh nor bones. Well, there are bones and parts of carcasses in the Goo on Atys, that have not been vanished for many, many Atysyears. So this led me to believing that homins don't dissolve in Goo - just like (some?) animals don't.

We also know players who worked or are still working on theories about the Goo; the most important known scholar of today being Filira Kilor Tasmatican. His theory is based on Goo being fungal - similar to mold. :) There are also some who believe that the "demon" that/who is described on the sign-board of the outpost Demons Crossroads Diplomatic Outpost has been a Kami...

Allow me to tell you that you are loosing yourself. How can you say there is no logic in that (and underline it like that), as if you were keeping the very truth of the world. Surprising coming from you.

There is a logic that is not yours, that's all.

I said it this way because I was slightly put off by YOUR way of phrasing things:You seem to overlook that you have often enough phrased your personal theories as "facts" - not even IC but also OOC. Still you're always very keen and quick to criticize others even if they make small mistakes like one misphrased word (remember the "enraged" inhabitants?)...

Wow. I'm sure that Lore say Kami learn magic to homin. In french, so maybe in other too, no ?
And for me, if they learn that, they can use it. Parralel with trainer is good : "Trainers can teach athletes how acrobatic moves" in general, trainer are old athletes... they can make movement in youth.

It's fact in aniro that kami and homin use same kind of magic. I think it was little spoil, one day, but everybody in aniro says it's the same... Can we re-write this ?

Parralel with dust or nuclear waste is maybe modern, but good... just for that : we can "clean" without "destroy". Kami are very strong, but goo is the only weakness : they don't act in them, it destroy them. Homin are protected, a little : so kami use homin for that.

History of goo is connected to story of all atys, in particulary secrets of kami and karavan. So, we can gather element for anim team, but they have secret lore with more info and ultimately they're only to can say "this is possible way to destroy goo". In aniro, three way attested by anim in event : natural fire, tryker's box, and magic of Marung Horongi.

Hehe, but doesn't seem to make sense is slightly different from doesn't make sense :p

Yes I always notice each detail, and point it out. Even if felt too criticizing, at least I try to leave no place for confusion.
Let's go on with the topic.

Well, Laofa: the German Lore does not state that the Kami have the same kind magic as homins have! Does the French Lore claim that? However I already confirmed that the Kamis have taught homins magic mentioned "in general" in the German Lore just like in the French Lore.

Believe me: many trainers really CANNOT and also were never able do the same moves as their trainees, sometimes outstanding world-record-setting athletes, can do. Trainers might know how it should work out in theory, but the athletes are the ones who can make it an reality with a flexible well-trained body :) Also: you should about people bringing up birds and "teaching" them to fly, or training dogs to sniff out illegal substances, or teaching pigs to find truffles and so on? As Kamis and homins are completely different races, this shouldn't be such a bad comparison, no? ;)

"Tryker's box" - now that sounds interesting! :) On Leanon I don't believe we ever heard of Muang Hoi-Gi / Marung Horongi ever "destroying" or "healing" Goo. And I do know a lot about it. We had troubles with animals he had altered, some changed to giant size, others to very small, plaything-like size though. Muang/Marung is considered by most homins as a very evil character after all; except for Marauders and their sympathizers - we even had a "Muang-fangirl" on Leanon :D You might want to try asking Neira about her "Muang-beach fashion-calendar" ;) And yes, she's a Tryker - somehow obviously.

Yes, it is possible that the theories that our characters, the homins we play, have had for a long time will prove to have been wrong assumptions or lack of (secret) knowledge in the future. Maybe even parts of the Lore in our chronicles might prove wrong; as these have been written too by homins IC; and homins can be wrong, they don't know everything... And yes, the Event-Team will have to decide about this.

For some parts the German Lore will have to be changed, for some parts the English one, and for some parts the French Lore will have to be changed. Just please do not expect YOUR Lore as the only "valid" one like Icus tries to impose IC on others as often as he can - some of us Non-Aniro-players are really fed up with this!

And by the way: Icus was never "corrected" by Feylin, neither OOC nor IC, neither ingame nor in the forum, whenever he said things that were clearly "going too far" (except one time when saying something IC about the Kamis); especially towards other characters/players from Leanon. :(

Can you, Feylin, really not imagine what kind of impression this makes?

I would first like to thank all who contributed to this thread with informations showing different as well as common historic traditions on the different worlds. And I agree that we have to find common grounds especially where either informations or their interpretations are different. We should do this without polemics and with due respect for any of the different traditions.

And I think that we should forget about past conflicts, but in the future strictly tell off fools blaming homins from other worlds that they had not read or known the Lore. This should be especially the case when it deals with buddies from the own old world.

About the Kamis, I know that some homins, e.g. Taliar Luth McFay, even contradict the notion that the Kami brought to the homins the ability to use magic, he considers that as kamist propaganda and believes that magic is an inborn property of all homins. This may sound shocking or even blasphemous to Zorai, anyway it is a perception based on the Lore, too.

Undeniably the Kamis are a powerful force, yet they have susceptibilities homins lack, at least to a wide amount, especially against Goo and fire. So I do not see a contradiction in the notion that Kamis are able to teach homins things they cannot do themselves, even those they will never be able to do. As an example: I may train a monkey to climb up a steep wall to a partially opened window, stick his tail through the opening and switch off the light or something else there, even though I would never be able to climb such a wall and lack a tail to reach through a narrow opening. In the same sense Kamis may train homins things they cannot perform themselves. This is a difference compared to an old athlete training younger ones.

Why not, magic kami and magic homin is not the same. But in that event, this changes lot of things, either past and present. This theory explains lot of events in atys, like comportement with kamis and goo, but others too... and I don't want spoil more, because we are in secret of lore and I prefer people discover it in game, or only if they want spoil.

I'm ok with that :It is for that we discuss here, no ? For compare version and find mutual lore. Like I say in my first reply here, english is very hard for me, so if what I said could means the opposite, please, forgive me.

But what Icus are cited ? He has a big knowledge of Lore, but he's not an expert on goo and he didn't speak here... If he talks in the last zorai meeting, it's only like toon, with generic knowledge. And, ok, I could not follow all your altercation this day (not translated, too fast). But I'm chocked by this new attack, in this post, to Icus. He's not perfect (my little loved troll ^^), yes, but Feylin is not his mother (I think his mother doesn't play ^^), I'm surprised that you asked she has to correct him. One day (but not here, it's not the subject), I want serious discussion about relation around Icus : I think primary misunderstanding contamine good relation. If it left you, no problem, but your disagreement is often found to disrupt meeting with off topic. "You" is not "you, zhoi" but "you all".

To return to the goo, I'm sorry because link in my first reply is in french, but I have no idea how translate this (hum, like me... f.. automatic translator ^^" ). You have story of the tryker's box and text where Marung seems destroy (and create) goo.

I would suggest to all to leave the things around the last Zorai meeting out of this discussion. I admit that I was also angry about Icus' shit and disappointed about Feylin's spineless reaction. But to discuss it here would taint this interesting discussion.

Well, in my discussion with Nung, arranged by the Aeden gouvernment - and that was a meeting I really treasure, not just because I'm on the heels of Muang since his first appearance (apart from the day Wyler was shot) - he clearly stated that Muang is much more talented than him and knows much more about Goo than he, that Muang has a special affinity to it. He said, though, that he "discovered" Muang as a kid at the Zoran Academy and told him everything he knew about Goo, until Muang was taken away from him and brought to a place where the Zorai scholars close to Mabreka (while Nung as a Horongi was hardly accepted) educated the highly talented Zorai children. Nuang, so to say, had him "infected" with his philosophy by then, so it seems, so Muang did not become a proud follower of Ma-Duk, but like an ill tree sprouted eccentrically. If they are family, almost everything the dying Zorai told me was a lie - especially the important bits, which in fact tell us something about education in Zoran. It also fascinates me because it suggests that these madmen - the boy taken away from his family for education and the old, bitter loner - developed some kind of affection for each other, probably the closest kind of affection both ever felt, which gives the whole thing a human, a somewhat touching dimension. One almost like the father, the other almost like the son. That this all is/was for nothing, for Hekuba - that thought, indeed, is endless frustration to me.

Pardon me, but aren't you making a mistake talking about Mabreka here ? You talk about Zoran Acadamy, Zoran ! Meaning from before the First Great Swarm, Mabreka is only born during the swarm. I think it's rather the Sage Hoi-Cho in your story, am i right ? In Aniro, Muang Horongi was known as the apprentice of Hoi-Cho before the Swarm, while Mabreka became the apprentice of Hoi-Cho after the swarm.

Exactly, Feylin. But I'm old. I'm allowed to be confused with names. ;)

If you were Zorai, you would have been punished for this, but i am patient with underlings :p

Well, since this is OOC, I think it's safe to discuss the Ryzom bible, if that document is still in use as a guideline.

Regarding magic: The kamis are supposed to be a manifestation of the nanotech engines used to terraform the planet, a sort of AI (artificial intelligence) which gained consciousness. This is what gives them the ability to know everything that happens on Atys, for instance.

The bible specifically says that "kamis are working to integrate hominkind into their nanotech world". This leads me to think that while kamis have control over all other life-forms of Atys, they do not fully understand the genetic mutations that were done by the Colonists to the homins. Since the homins are able to live on Atys it must mean they fit, which also allows them to learn some kami magic.

However, to me it is very possible that homins could possess or develop powers unknown to the kami (and vice-versa, kamis could have powers that homins cannot learn).

Regarding goo: The bible says at some point in the kami history:

2525 - 2550 V.1.0 – The New Beginning

The Kamis know that the biological clock will soon be tolling the end of Atys if nothing is done to check the virus (the Goo). They transmit their fears to the Zoraïs.

To me, it seems like the original developers wanted to make the goo a sort of illness, curable through great effort and only if the planet is not exploited (which of course contradicts the karavan interests). If goo is considered a virus, then over-exploitation of resources would make sense to "destabilize" the planet in that particular spot - the sap doesn't flow so freely, and in its absence goo is free to attack anything.

And now I'll go back to reading your arguments which are actually supported by lore, so much more informed :)