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As many are aware there was an option to obtain cheap non-tradeable tools at the tool merchants in the capitol cities.  One clicked on the Info button, then selected the Free Tools link and bought a q250 tool for 1000 dappers instead of the inflated retail prices of anywhere from ~20,000 to 70,000 dappers for the equivalent tools.

Last night the pop-up window said "CLOSED".  I wrote a ticked and submitted it an got back this answer:

Given that the cheap tools were never publically announced in the first place, this is a bit on the disingenuous side. 

However, those of us with advanced skills should now be prepared to sponsor at least picks to help our new people dig in the higher level areas. The problem is that if you have a q150 pick (still expensive but marginally affordable) you cannot dig in a q200 or q250 area *at all*.  It is not that you are limited to the quality of the pick, or your level, whichever is less, you can't do anything at all! (*)

This means that some of the prime digging areas are now closed to an up and coming harvester because he/she cannot afford to buy the pick to allow them to advance their skills.  (i.e. if digging at level 140 in a q250 area you need a q250 pick, not a q150 pick, but you can't sell q140 mats for enough to pay for the q250 pick and make a reasonable profit.) 

In my case I can probably make a small profit on my digging in q250 areas at level q250 by crafting the result and selling the results on to the merchant (or to the people when I happen to have dug materials that make the results worth marketing), but I certainly could not do so if I was actually paying for any of my armor and weapons, and if I was selling on the materials at a reasonable markup I would barely break even.

Of course *I* can make oodles and gobs of cash by running Overseer Missions and I can run (14x~450,000 - 3,500 (for tp's)) ~6,300,00 dappers in Overseer Missions on a single pick.  That's not the point. The average new player can't do that!

When the Tool Hawkers were put in just after the merge, I thought that the devs had realized that the pricing structure for the tools was out of line. When they disappeared but were replaced by the under-the-counter cheap (not free) tools, I felt that was a recognition that this was the case but that they were giving hard-core players an option of doing it the hard way or an easier way.  (Certainly the tranferability of the retail tools was a point in their favor in certain circumstances.)

Now it appears that the devs don't have the slightest degree of care for the new players, but expect us more senior players to take up the slack for "fixing" the broken pricing scheme by buying our apprentices the q250 picks and by sponsoring our desire to make items for our friends by running Missions.  *pfui*

I doubt that the devs will listen, but I am planning to put a suggestion in the Ideas Forum for at least allowing people to dig in higher level areas up to the level of their pick.

-- Bittty

(*) I am not sure (but suspect strongly) that the limit on digging also applies to care-planning.

Can't a low level player just dig in a low level area? The low level areas were meant for low level players to train in. You seem to think that its a god given right that a new player should be digging in a q250 area. You don't see a lvl10 tank leveling melee in void. (Yes you do see some healers but its rare.)

the q50 zones used to be way more awesome, more mats all over, now? no way. in forest you move from crappy 50q zone to crappy 150q (towerbridge) unless you run mek from yrk to GoC (which is really great)

without the q250 zone pick it would be a big hassle

i dont see why you cant just limit the Q you can GET to Q100 with a Q100 pick IN a Q250 zone etc etc max Q you can GET out of Q100 armor tool is a Q100 armor, right?

edit- bittty, indeed selling mats on merch to other players at low Q cant really keep up so yes it does force people to dapper-mission which ofc many hate

at best we can follow homin eks' in his bazzar thread post and offer to do dapper missions for other homins they dig mats accept mission bring mats to overseer for you and we craft them out- we can take the blunt of the cost to replace our own tools being higher level already

i have been doing this for some weeks now. the low level mission in thesos is one of those good missions for picks even the 33k missions in pyr are easy. but forcced

PS theres also new horizons with all its faults even at a low level you can make enough on that to recoup a few tools thankfully though for the patient, there is a 350k turnover per day more than enough for tps and tools

still i dont like the forced nature of it, even with my 100 cheap tools saved up i will still have to go do dapper missions now and sure i can do the higher level ones but it doesnt mean i have to like it

we already do enough things we dont like off atys because we "have to" i dont really enjoy the prospect of doing that here :P

edit- and yes bittty, forced nature of "team play" purposely shoving oldies and newbies to help each other, yay right? we all know the built in disavdantage of a solo homin,

just hope that the newbies start in PYR for the easy dig and easy missions and easy access to the three capitals via NH, starting elsewhere is harder these days especially the place with all the doggies

newbies quitting is bad news this will further that im sure

First's first: I agree with Tixi that the free tools had to go away. Getting a q250 tool for 1000 dappers is just silly.

That being said, there needs to be a much more differentiated pricing structure if the cheap tools are now taken away. A q50 pick should cost little more than the dirt, while a q250 one doesn't matter if it's a couple thousand dappers.

Agree that the low level regions needs to explored more. I've seen lots and lots of "young" desert diggers jumping in Dyron as soon as they hit 60, with Oflovak being very seldom used. Same for Kami circle in forest, or WoM in lakes. Nice spots to dig, little aggro, yet very underused ... overall, this might be a good decision if the prices are adjusted a bit more.

Edit for Bittty: imho, once you're out of your level 50-60, you're best off digging solo anyway. First because you need mats to craft, and second because your xp is very close to what you'd get by CPing. Digs are, largely, a solo activity.

I agree that you shouldn't need a q250 pick to CP.

Mjollren --
  The problem with that is that it is directly *opposite* the thrust of the game to encourage team play.  A high level digger is not going to help someone dig in OO, but they might in FF or in Dyron.  They certainly aren't going to help in q50 areas.  There's no benefit to them.

If you are capable of earning 6mil of 1 pick bittty then whats wrong with forking out for a new player? I don't know much about digging but I'm told even a CPer at level100 is of great benefit to a master digger.

New players can't craft q250 items, I don't see why they should be able to buy them.

its not that many of us do not help out, hell anyone in forest needs donations there are guilds who hand them out

my issue here is that a newbie starting with a handful of dappers especially in the harder starting captials may well quit very soon before anyone can get to them and help them out

there is no direction offered from atys as to, go to overseer take low level 33k missions in pyr, go dig. etc with the other missions

besides when did atys become mission DEPENDENT? its not mission oriented, its not mission possible, its dependent. at this point even i must do dapper misions to buy the Q250 tools

we need some newbie retention safeguards and some npc dialog to include overseers in welcomer missions

are they already included? been a while since i did that so i do not remember.... can check

still.... the danger is not of losing older players with higher levels it is losing potential income from lower level ones before someone has a chance to "fix the system" etc.

No, the overseers are not part of the "visit" section of the Welcomer.  They are also not part of the "I want to find someone in the city" for the gate wardens.

overseers messengers corporals all of those need to be bundled into a part of how to make money on atys tour in welcomer missions, newbies are not going to know and we cant reach them all in time sometimes

if you can think of anything else "missing" given the changes after merge maybe we can throw up a new idea thread for welcomer dialog

I will derail this thread a bit and attempt to make a case for what I believe is going wrong with practically all post-Nevrax content, not just "Tool Story 2". Short version: They nixed the important gameplay designers.
PARENTAL ADVISORY: STRONG OPINIONS

The current devs don't know what Ryzom was about; or was supposed to be; and consequently failed to keep additions true to the spirit of the game. (Right! Because I'm an expert on spirits of games and part time Exorcist. No kidding.) *hands out little packets of salt*
On top of this the thing Ryzom is about; or used to be; has always been difficult to manage:
Freedom combined with interaction. Freedom of interaction, too. Maybe some interaction with freedom. *suddenly, salt everywhere*

Ryzom presents you with many options at all times; and everybody else, too - and if you start interacting with people options multiply like rabbits.
You ran out of Sap? Harvest or fight until it regenerates? Craft instead? Maybe the Boss respawned? Find a Healer maybe? Event going on? Et cetera ad infinitum aeternam? You have the options, at all times.
Other examples are the craft system. Did I mention options? The way harvesting works. Or Sabrina, the stanza system. And there was the Ring. Options!
The key is providing options without overload, catering to as many playstyles and interests as possible along the way, and keeping all the options viable.
Most other games that try to provide many options fail in critical ways:
It might feel bulky; overloaded (then the so called feature creep took its toll) or some options are a not competitive enough (or no longer, after the fifth expansion) - things Ryzom avoids through great streamlining, integration and the uniform stanza system. But back to the issues....

Three underlying game changes or additions come to mind:
The new economy.
Occupations.
Silan.

SILAN
Replaced the four racial newbielands where you did whatever and left for the mainland to do whatever. Suckling Yubos, for example.
On Silan you run a bunch of questlines and earn xp and dappers, then you leave for the mainland and are pretty confused. Quit, for example.
Benefits of this change: Less population issues in newbieland. Newbies are slightly better educated (but also get the wrong impression, unless Silan is some future vision of this game that will be realized, which it will not be.
Even then: it should be clear that Silan failed its previous mission and cannot win a fight in the age of Free2Play.

ECONOMY
[I will be talking about faucets and drains here. Don't be alerted. The economy is of the Faucet-Drain type: The game gives you the money (faucet) and also takes it away (drain).]
Old
Near non-existent. You got good dappers for most things you did. Prices were low to average.
The Faucet was too big, drain too small. If you expended any effort you were super rich quickly enough.
By no means optimal.
New
The faucet got restricted to "one activity" (not truly, but for arguments sake let's settle for "missioning" being the singular activity and all other income stream being totally negligible); especially since we have to discount trading with other players:
They probably ran missions to get those dappers or used another faucet, rendering such interaction irrelevant to the economy.
To make matters worse: The faucet is still too big - just much more restrictive.
If you expend some effort now - on one prescribed activity that you have the skills for - you will be super rich quickly enough, still.
Otherwise you'll pretty much be poor, with practically no income beyond Silan.
Additionally: The drain is quite a bit larger.
The situation certainly wasn't improved. I doubt I could have done worse had I tried.
We just have a greater divide between poor people and rich people.
I will not go as far as to call the old Eco better. It was also dysfunctional - but in a less destructive way...
Suggestion
Sell prices closer to old levels, but reduce value gained from quality (mat, too) significantly. Occupations could be a drain instead of a time sink (that would have been pretty clever).
Scale porter ticket cost with zone level on a squared formula. lvl*lvl/2?
Is: lvl50:1250 100:5000 150:11250 200:20000 250:31250 (Roots like lvl300: 45000. Ouchies)
By far and wide, medium and high ql crafting was the biggest faucet, and given the amount that has to be crafted in the long term many dappers are created.
Reducing value gained from quality will help, a lot, but not fix this issue due to sheer amount of items. My ideas:
-Add a button to the crafting results window to disassemble the item, retrieving some mat (1/3?) and destroying the item.
-Allow donation of items to whatever to gain something. (Just fill in the words)
Nice alternative to missions, but the reward shouldn't be dappers or fame, just some dumping of items for... lottery tickets... where you have a 1/1000 chance to win... some crap. It's okay.
Endgame porters can be expensive, especially if people don't have to worry about dappers too much.
The tool prices as they are should work fine under these conditions.
But these are just some thoughts, not a proven system.

OPs and Tool quality has been discussed at length I think - so I'll just skip that part of the Eco. And about Occupations I have nothing to add.

In closing, not all was bad: just many of the actual game changes or additions feel.. wrong.
Free Accounts, subscription cost and subscription benefits align quite well.
Ryzom App does its thing... more integration! Good job.

Finally: I'm willing to accept if they want Silan continued on the mainland, but to me this is not the mission of, ahem, The Saga of Ryzom. Not the direction of a game I want to play.
I can do waaaayy better quests elsewhere if I felt like it.
If you need a reminder: The only purpose for missions in this game, apart from minor rewards, should be Fame.

Some clarification would be great but I don't want to turn this into a "The Direction of Ryzom" thread in any way. We can keep it Eco... I just think some buildup and background is necessary to tackle this issue in depth.


Darn, basicly: a colossal (I upgraded this word twice now) whine post about "my Ryzom" being violated. Thank me later.

We should take any substantial discussion of microeconomic systems to another thread. To be brief, I feel that you have ignored several very Large "faucets" and several "drains", as well as conflating the word "economy" with the word "money."  If you  search back-threads you will find a lot of discussion in the EN channels and find my philosophy there. See, for instance:

 http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/14429/51 #51,

http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/15709/6# 6

http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/15096/43 #43

Respectfully,

 -- Bittty

Virg... I don't think you understood the thrust of my complaint/argument.  It's not that I can't support a new player.  I can, and have, and will.

However, I cannot do so unless I run bloody-be-damned stupid missions for a quality-blind Matis overseer in Natae.  I can't do it, as I used to be able to, on the income from my master-class skills.

Yes, a cper at level 100 can be of great benefit to a master digger.  But the way the system is currently set up, the level 100 cp'er *cannot* help the master digger in a q250 area without a q250 pick!

Given that we cannot craft "normal" tools, only OP material enhanced ones, I think your comment about (not being able to craft => not able to buy) to be totally missing the point, and wrong besides.  A level 225 elementalist may not be able to craft q250 jewels or an amplifier, or light armor, but she can sure as heck *use* them.

The prices of tools makes the OP tool mats interesting at any lvl : craft a tool = free tool.
Just have a market for low level tool mats that are disdained by high level faction players because under lvl 200, there is no real interest nor stake.

Another thought :
Once some peoples have made enough missions to have millions of dappers, if they just begin to spend them in trades with players, then those dappers are available to players inside an economic system. If peoples just acccumulate dappers to contemplate them... well they have their own fun at least.
My advice : make better use of the Bazaar to sponsorize low level diggers. I'm sure some peoples want to train low level craft skills and have no forage skill to improve anymore. There is absolutely no need to dig lvl 250 mats to train a lvl 100 skill.

I think the prices of the current system are not a problem, and I'm glad those cheap tools are removed.
But the game need a new feature : an order NPC that you can pay to find mats (brought by players) for you.
That would make player trades easier.