English

This is a translation from a post writen by Laofa, readable here : http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/112932 

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I know that Ryzom is full of good people.

I know that many of them never speak in public. We don't hear from them, despite their great wisdom, or maybe because of it.

I also know that among those who speak there are also many good people, even some of the ones who speak clumsily and are then viewed as bad people (sorry, but I won't be using the harsh vocabulary from the comic^^).

The words choosen are sometimes clumsy or really hurtful. Even so, I don't think that harming is their intent because it's their love for the game that creates their "passion".

But even the strongest passion must not obscure the respect others deserve. When someone disagrees with us it doesn't matter whether they are "right" or "wrong". We still have to respect them as an individual giving their opinion.

In the previous sentence, all of the words are important.

- First: Opinion. Debates are based upon ideas, sometimes preconceived ones, but all are just "a view one has of the world". The other person is may be wrong, or they may be right. Nevertheless, one must not forget that they may have ideas too. Each opinion we express might be wrong, whatever our   conviction. 

- Then: The individual. If someone express an opinion, it's their own opinion, not that of all their people, even if they claim to represent others. They could have been elected in a democratic manner, but even in that case, they are but ONE person. We can suppose that his opinion might be shared by others, but we have to avoid any easy confusion with the group they belong to, whether this group is a faction, a linguistic community, or based on a geographic location. To forget this, is to fall into the trap of xenophobia. 

-Finally: Respect. It's a complex concept and I will not prolong my essay on this subject, but respect is essential for a healthy atmosphere. A good atmosphere, more than any rule carved in stone (or written in a code of conduct) allows us to enjoy living in a community. This is as true IRL as IG.

There have been a lot of harsh words spoken in the past weeks. It does not matter what caused these disrespectful debates to occur. What matters is that ill words were spoken and people did not seem aware they were doing so.

It is one thing to disagree about how people overcome gameplay problems, and speaking calmly about it would be welcome. But it's an entirely different for one to shout "Germans are this, French are that, English play like this", that is UNACCEPTABLE.

Communicating with others is always difficult, because even when a there is a common language, it is sometimes hard to understand each other. When we have to talk with people we don't know, in a language we do not master, we must take exceptional care with what we think we say, as well as what we think we understand, and strive never, never to cause confusion.

I see dangerous confusions appear between the behavior of a minority of players and their inclusion in a cultural or any other kind of group. That one English-speaking person used a bot doesn't mean all "English" use them. One French speaking person behaving like a boor doesn't mean that all "French" are boors. One German-speaking person not giving a damn about roleplay doesn't mean that all "Germans" despise the game's background. And so on, and so on.

There are plenty of ways to play the game. None are "good" or "bad" as long as each one respects the other. There are many different individuals. The acts of one of them do not allow us to judge all those who share his language or are part of his group of friends.

When someone begins to insult peoples because they don't speak the same language, or share the same timezone, the concept of respect has been bypassed.

I hope that each one of us will take care to moderate they words, be it in the forum, in the channels, in Ryzom facebook groups. I am not throwing stones at anyone in particular; many people have displayed bad behavior, in each language. I do think it was the result of their passion and that result can change. No one is perfect ;)

About the "problems" that initiated this virulence, there are many possible solutions and more than one way to consider things. That is not the subject here, but I will finish by saying this: in these problems, I see nothing to prevent us from playing together, each one with his very different way to play, but still in good understanding. That is, providing we don't forget repect, moderation, courtesy and discussion.   

This is a translation of the answer from Yumeroh, available here : http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/112932 

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Hello

You see me intervening from time to time on the forum in order to, alas, play the cop who has to moderate some words, ideas which are hurtful, racist or out of context... but this is not one of those times. Here is a topic for your reading that is well formulated and full of good sense, that, I must admit it, I am secretly jealous of.

This subject deserves to be a sticky topic, because it is a call for understanding and peaceful conflict resolution. Thus I want to thank Laofa for taking her time to share her ideas with us, endowed with a very correct discernment about how the community should behave in order to discuss things and move forward.

However, I will take this opportunity to emphasis what Laofa said, and to add an "official" touch; I know how much you like official things. :)

Some among you might think, incorrectly and sadly too often, that it should be the role of a CSR or the Ryzom Team to "ENFORCE" a game style or integrate "new" rules with our motley player community.

Alas, or perhaps fortunately, it is up to you; a long time ago we chose to give everyone freedom of action to a large extent. This freedom is mainly driven by Role Play, because it's makes sense for a game universe to have it's development driven by Role Play. This freedom is sustained by an active volunteer events team, comprised of players like you. This may have lead some of you to think "there is only one way to play because we are officially helped by the events team", but that is wrong. There is not only one way to play Ryzom, and there are even more ways and styles ever since the merger.

Aside from a player's preferences on faction or nation play, role play or not, PvP or not, Ryzom is and will remain a multiplayer game only. You are the players and you decide whether things are good or bad. You have to coexist with people who are different, be it socially, culturally or of a specific playing style. This requires that you master a major skill in your behaviour: Tolerance.

Atys is the only server at the moment and it is comprised of people who have or will have a totally different view of Ryzom than yours. These people desire as much as you to play Ryzom with their friends, meet new people and enjoy the game, without being afraid every Monday morning to stumble upon a new rule that would hinder or limit their game style. Of course, all cases are checked and evaluated to judge the consequences for the players and we can always enforce a rule if there is real abuse.

Aripostle no longer exists! However, I hope it will remain in your hearts and that you will remember it as the server that saw you start playing Ryzom and grow to what you are now. The same goes for the French players on Aniro and German players on Leanon.

Therefore, outside of some basic ethical rules, the charter we enforce is only common sense. Anarchy is not the best condition to fully enjoy playing a game, but we have no right to impose a global mode of thought on some players rather than others, as long as everyone abides by the basic rules. Thus, one who initiates or involves himself directly or indirectly, in an insulting manner, in polemics, even if it is hidden by so-called humour or formal speech, and in doing so targets a group of players defined by their geographical location, religion, color, age, etc ... (non exhaustive list), should expect CSR intervention. This is in no way a new rule, it derives simply from what already exists in the Ryzom Terms of Service. The mode of enforcement will remain, as always, at the discretion of the Ryzom Team.

To conclude and sum up this comment; when you find yourself in an impasse, you must get out of it by speaking in a reasonable manner with the players involved. The Ryzom Team can't solve all of the problems and ethical conflicts. We strive to do our best to satisfy the greatest number of players, but you must also share responsibility for the resolution of intra-community problems.

I hope I have convinced you of your importance and the power you have in your hands. I'm not a politician and having to intervene on such a small matter as self-respect and tolerance for differences is rather unexpected. This is especially so since we know that Ryzom has the best "mmorpg-ing" community! It just could become even better by adding a bit more open-mindedness, a bit of wisdom and a lot of tolerance.

I thank you for having read this and hope not to cause disappointment or confusion in this intervention that aims only to be friendly. I wish you a very good gaming experience.

 Thank you for reading. I hope I have not created uneasiness or misunderstanding by this action which is intended only to be friendly. I wish you a very good game.

This is a translation of an answer from Tamarea, available here : http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/113297

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Hello,

Normally, the Event Team does not get involved in an OOC disagreement within a faction; this is not its role or purpose.

However, in this particular case, it seems that the context of roleplaying has been exceeded and it is turning into an OOC confrontation between communities. So, we decided that it was important to communicate the point of view of the Event Team on the situation, as a  commentary to players about the game between different nations and cultures.


The consistency of Roleplay is being called into question.

The roleplaying habits of the different communities are suffering from a problem of image. This is simply because two different conceptions of roleplaying exist since the server merge and it appears many are focusing solely on these differences without understanding or knowing how to integrate them in their own way to play.

Thus, according to French-speaking players, English and German speaking players are viewed as completely OOC players because they focus on mutual assistance (hunting, forage, marauder boss and trading) between characters from Karavan/Kami factions.

On the other hand, according to English-speaking and German-speaking players, French-speaking players are perceived as extremist roleplay enthusiasts, and subsequently they begin to form a very negative picture of  roleplay in general, roleplay becoming a synonym for extremism and intolerance. Here, the focus is on the prohibition of open cooperation between homins from Karavan/Kami factions.


Roleplaying is experienced and expressed in different ways by the different communities.

In order to solve the current conflict, it is important to understand the reasons behind these different roleplaying modes.

The German-speaking and English-speaking players often consider Roleplaying as projecting themselves inside their characters (we can compare this to Jake Sully activating his avatar Na'vi in the movie Avatar). This results in a behavior of their character that is easily social-friendly; leading, by extension to other's roleplay being perceived simply as being the player's real character.

Additionally, in these two communities, roleplaying is generally reserved for certain specific moments of the game: events and outpost battles. Outside of those "shooting" times (to resume the cinematographic metaphor) during which each one acts according to roleplay only, each actor turns back to "himself". Going on a hunt with his enemy from the "scene"  is considered as normal, since two actors in opposition during a shooting scene can obviously, between two scenes, go have chat and drink together.

On the other hand, French-speaking players consider roleplaying as being puppet masters: they infuse life in their character, but it is "from a distance", without projecting themselves inside and identifying with them. This results in a roleplay which is more theatrical, allowing them to play roles easily that are well outside of (modern) social standards. According to them, the behavior of a character is obviously not reflecting the thoughts of the player controlling him.

In addition, French-speaking roleplayers consider everything happening in the "surroundings" as being part of the "shooting" (not only events and outpost battles, but hunts, foraging, treks, trades, etc); the camera is continuously working. According to them, there is no break between two events, everything played in surroundings is part of the movie

This results in a mutual misunderstanding and mutual discomfort when it comes to reacting to the behavior of another.

Imagine a movie in which two rival tribes would struggle against each other. Nobody would object if, between two shootings, actors portraying these tribes would sit down at the same table and have fun with each other, because it wouldn't be part of the movie. On the other hand, if it happened in front of the camera it would make the filmed scene completely illogical. Now, this is exactly what is happening in Ryzom: some of the players  consider everything happening in the game as roleplaying, while the other part do not. This leads to OOC actions of some people being understood as IC actions, with IC consequences, and calls into question the consistency of the whole .

In addition to this, the language barrier contributes greatly to amplifying misunderstanding. How does one explain his own way of playing when one is not fluent or cannot speak another language at all? How is one to pass a would-be diplomatic message when the words and grammar are approximate and the final text is just giving a dry and truncated version of things? How can one understand fully what the other means when one understands only a few words in a sentence and a bad translation alters the meaning? The language barrier makes neither IC discussions, nor OOC discussions, easier.

Even so, the solution seems so simple. All that is necessary is that each community demonstrate the richness of its roleplaying package. It seems wrong that we have an OOC community on "one" side, and another of too much IC on the "other" side. The Bark has known many years of amazingly rich roleplay on its different servers; a constructive and extremly diverse roleplay, and there has always been enough for each taste. We have seen players whose avatars lived only for the military glory of their faction, others making everything for the cultural and commercial expansion of their nation; mercenary roleplay, Atysian UNO, neverending discussions at a bar or campfire, merciless treks, ambushes, mysteriously poisoned sources, alliances building and breaking, poets, story-tellers, linguists, craftsmen at a market, homins seeming to live with their pick in their hand, improbable friendships, Karas, neutrals and Kamists united inside their Nation ...


Solving this conflict lies in listening to each other and in mutual respect.

The reasons for the current conflict are simple : different cultures, years of the game played in a different style, different understandings of the Lore, the barrier of languages...

Which way to play is the best? Which understanding of the Lore is true? Who is right? Who is wrong? It is not we who have to judge it. Every way to play has to be respected and not be pointed at as being a "bad way to play". However, any way of playing has to respect other's ways.

What course of action can be taken when two means to understand and play the game collide? When each one interpret the Lore differently? What can be done when some people start to view others as egoists, willing to  impose their way to play to the detriment of the other's way?

The solution is simple: put the problem back at the right level. Cease trying to solve an OOC problem using roleplay, and vice versa. Sit down and discuss, try to understand each other without trying to convince the other. And especially, try to find an OOC agreement.

Ryzom  is a game in which antagonistic actions are possible thanks to gameplay, and encouraged by the Lore, in which avatars can fight with words as well as weapons, and this opposition brings one kind of wealth to the game. "One" because it's not the "only" source of wealth, but this is another topic.

You have to manage to solve the current conflict. First, OOC, because you cannot let any kind of intolerance solidify between your different communities. Mutual respect must always come first, both between players and between communities.
Then, IC, because it is about the roleplay balance of the game. The Factions game is important un Ryzom, as well as the game of Nations or third party Factions. The Event Team is currently preparing the  Temple Wars 2 event, which is shaping up nicely and which should have some new features.


Some paths to solution of the conflict

Here are some suggestions on how to solve the conflict, which are paths that you can look at, but not the only possibilities.

First, you should resist the desire to quit your faction. don't forget that every one of you have a major something in common: you like Ryzom, you like to play your faction. Do not deprive yourself of this in vain, there is always a solution.

Then, look for a compromise between your respective ways of playing, so that none of you harm the other.
For example, currently some of the players like to hunt down the marauder NPC within an OOC alliance. This is bothering other  players because they see IC the stuff earned this way worn by their enemies on the battlefield. A possible compromise would be to turn the OOC alliance into an IC alliance against the Marauders: a gathering of neutrals and moderate members of both religions, allied against a common enemy: the Marauders. In practice this wouldn't change anything in those expeditions, and thus would be fun for participating players. This would restore the roleplaying consistancy which is essential to part of the players. Thus, the conflict coud be moved strictly to a roleplaying context.

Finally, try to solve the IC conflict in order to lead to a long term unity of your faction. The role of the Event Team is not to interfere in your roleplay habits to resolve this conflict, so it is up to yourselves to find the path. Be sure anyway that we keep watching all this, and we are available to assist if needed. The Event Team is the keeper of the Lore, and will lead the players, step by step, to a common end converging, particularly through upcoming events.


We wish you a good game on Atys,

Your Event Team

Wow, Thanks for the nice explanation Tamarea. I think there is ample room to mingle the two styles of play. For Example: Some like to view all Atys as IC as you say, no trading or helping any in the other faction, while some on the other side may work 'Underground' on the 'Black market' to subvert that perhaps for more sinister reasons, lol, well, enough said......

I think you do not address the real problem. And such your idea of a "solution" will not work out. If you believe that players can solve things amongst themselves and that you members of the Ryzom-team (especially the Event-team) can "stay out" of the current conflict, then you are deceiving yourselves.

Do not think you can "avoid" conflicts - because you are already part of it. You have already added to the conflict by letting things happen and by what you have said and done. Your silence already had and still has just as much impact and consequence as your actions do. It's already too late to refuse taking responsibility for that. If more and more players should leave the game, you will be co-responsible.

Lately there is a rather large group of players of some guilds on Atys who have banded together and deliberately try to force other players to change their playing-styles. It is not about roleplaying, it is not IC. It is about dominating and even about griefing other players which seems to give these aggressive players some personal satisfaction. The mocking way they even talk OOC about this strongly indicates so.

Newcomers to Ryzom were shocked when their characters were not resurrected but offended instead for reasons they could not possibly understand. We all know that Ryzom needs new users to stay alive.

Also players who know nothing about roleplaying at all have been insulted. It is most confusing for them. They just want to have fun by playing a nice MMORPG in their free time after a hard day's work - and they are paying money for that. Money that Ryzom dearly needs. Nobody can be forced to play in a different style - a style that they do not enjoy, and might not even be able to understand. Instead these players will feel griefed and leave.

There is no war going on on Atys; no forum-thread and not even the lore can explain why total strangers are being called "enemies" by these aggressive players and guilds. Many do not view it as "roleplaying" to be insulted by guilds of their own nation and faction for hunting together with so-called alleged "enemies", when there has never been any roleplay-reason for their own characters to see others as enemies at all.

Hunting together peacefully is definitely not OOC by the way. Roleplay-wise our characters have lived for 8 years in peace in Exile together and could have very well become closer there. And many players already know that on Leanon no war between Fyros and Matis had happened. So it is perfectly logical roleplay for Leanon-players to be friendly with each other; it's not OOC at all. Still this repressive group of players claims it to be "bad" or even "wrong" roleplaying. So you can clearly see that this is just a whitewash to justify their striving for domination over others. In reality they themselves do not act because of roleplaying-reasons at all.

At least some players should know about the Universal Declaration of Homin Rights: http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/16969/17 #17 While Marauders might ignore that, no other homin should claim "roleplaying" as a reason to not resurrect others. And they should never attempt to force others to follow their example, which sadly they do. Homins who have political functions should even be forced to step down from their political seats when being caught breaching this declaration/charta as far as roleplaying-logic dictates. They same might go for not accepting existing peace treaties.

Now you are talking about "tolerance"? Are you saying that these people causing other players to leave the game and are abusing "roleplaying" as an excuse to dominate other players should be "tolerated"? Are you saying that newcomers who did not have the time yet to get accquainted with Ryzom-RP and also OOC-players have to "tolerate" having their gaming-fun being reduced for reasons that do not apply to themselves in their eyes?

You suggest to talk to each other. We players already did that. We pleaded for more tolerance towards other players and gaming-styles ingame and outgame. But these aggressive players refuse to be considerate. They still try to force their playing-styles on others, they still do not respect other players, they still use unfair means to achieve their goal to dominate other players, OOC and yes, also IC.

It's true that also during roleplaying-events some players have been - and still are - trying exactly the same: to dominate other players. They try to impose their own roleplaying-style, their interpretation of the Lore and also their specific server-past on others. They try to make their server-past into the new reality for everyone in the current game - unfortunately by using all means possible, even unfair ones.

They try to win RP-arguments by abusing OOC-tricks that show disrespect towards other players. They try to exclude players of different language-groups ("dialects") than their own by only talking with their own language-group of other Nations about national political matters. They abuse the use of their own languages and lack of translations to take advantage of others, like at votings of Assemblies. They repeat what happened on their own server as the one and only "valid" past again and again, ignoring all objections.

All of this has happened in the presence of members of your Event-Team, who were letting these players do what they wanted unopposed, which encouraged them to continue in their ways. And sometimes you have even supported them with what you said. Sadly up until now Event-Team-Members only very rarely reminded these players to be more considerate, like to take different server-histories into consideration.

We players are at a loss, because as players we don't have the means and competences to force these repressing players to be more considerate in any ways. You have both, means and comptetence. These players do not listen to us, but they listen to you. So we need you. We need you to do your job in your RP-roles as rulers and officials of our Nations. And we need you to do your job as game-masters of sorts, as vigilantes who should preserve order and shall help with preventing players being griefed out of the game.

Do not refuse to make use of the responsibility you were given. Do not abuse your positions by passively letting players dominate others in your presence, which has already been seen as an approval. If you want to claim now that your inactivity was not meant to be seen as acceptance - then how naïve can you be? How would you interpret things if your boss at work said nothing when your co-workers started to mob/bully you in his presence? Try to imagine that. Don't play innocent now, don't feign ignorance, don't try to "stay out" of your very own business.

You have powers, you have responsibility. Be aware of that. And act responsible-minded.

They are doing their job. By adressing the issue, they did. The also are right; they can't ban people for refusing to rez people from another faction, nor can they force them to stop roleplaying on a roleplaying game.

You are implying only one of the groups is guilty of everything. You are not talking about many other major issues -the ones that make it so the other group is inflexible.
You wanna solve that problem, well, don't ask mom and dad to solve it for you because big brother is being mean. Right now, all you're doing is try to make mom and dad feel guilty.

Instead of pursuing this on this thread, I suggest you drop me a line and we'll talk about that particular problem and how we can solve it. There are some obvious angles by which you've not been watching the problem. Why not have a look as those neglected angles? And why not try to regroup many guild leaders of opposing groups around a single table and try to negociate some conditions favoring the new players?

Umm, Ingfarah, the CSR's and the Event team only "addressed" the problem in response to a posting by a player; they did not initiate this response.  I give them full credit that they responded at all, but I do not give them credit for seeing the problem and acting pro-actively.

I read Zhoi's message as a criticism of actions of the Event Team during such things as the various assemblies/gathering/meetings of the Nations.  The Event Team members in these cases play a high official in the government and I think that it is Zhoi's contention that by allowing certain actions to take place they were not being neutral, but were condoning and supporting those actions.

It is said, and truly: "Even if you choose not to do something, you have made a choice. Even inaction is an action."

I am interested in finding out about "...many other major issues -the ones that make it so the other group is inflexible."  This probably needs to be transferred to another thread, but I have not seen ANY of the competing sides laid out in clear terms.  I'm not even sure what all the sides are -- because no one seems to be willing (at least in English) to come out and make their statements.

Tamarea proposed an analogy for two different sides.  Are those the correct "two sides"? Are there more than two?  What are they?

I do a fair amount of low-intensity roleplay.  I'm also of the "side" that turns off the cameras from time to time, but not as often as some people might think. 

(IC)I have studied the tenets of the various Nations and the words on the stele's of the two Higher Powers back before the Second Swarming destroyed them, words attributed to the priests of Ma-Duk and Jena.  This has led me to being what might be considered  a "secular hominist". I do not deny that the Powers exist - that much is self evident - but I do not think that following either creed justifies cruelty or contempt for any homin.  I will work for the good of any homin. Credo.(/IC)

I think the reticence of the official team to step in is quite understandable. If they did step in and drew a line that favors any side over another (RPers vs non-RPers, PvP vs PvE, etc), those on the other side might leave the game, not finding satisfaction in it.

Consider that other games implement PvP and PvE on separate servers, for very good reasons. Ryzom can't afford that. While the game was designed with PvE in mind mostly, it has to offer a form of PvP in order to attract a more diverse player base; at least that's what appears to be the official line of thought.

Now, as any anthropologist will tell you, the chances for cooperation are epsilon to nil - if the differences are too many:

- Two nations bordering each other will trade easier, and in trading develop some relations and some sort of mutual understanding for each other's cultures; in time, the cultures might mix.
- Two nations first meeting each other may or may not trade, but surely they won't adapt their culture to each other; either the settlers encroaching new lands are eventually killed, or the local tribesmen are slaughtered.

We all "live" on the same server. What we're seeing now is exactly this culture clash I've described. What the Ryzom team is calling for is us working towards scenario 1 benevolently, e.g. each group defining borders, finding enjoyment within their confines, and working to accept the other group. If instead the players will choose to over-represent their side, the outcome might as well be the stamping out of the other players.

The team can't make that choice for us. The game mechanics already favor one side, PvE and non-RP. You can choose not to get involved if that's what you wish. You can avoid PvP almost entirely, you can mute insistent / obnoxious RPers. The silence of the team is just that, a waiting game to see if we, the gamers, can eventually mesh together.

After all, if one side prevails, the other leaves. If the team makes stricter rules, the losing side leaves. In both scenarios the game loses players. However, if both sides find a way to cooperate, it's a win-win-win for everyone. And forced cooperation is a contradiction in terms.

I'm sorry, I may have misunderstood because I feel Zhoi's answer is solely directed to Aniro's community -from which I come from.

As for those major issues, the thing is, I feel those issues would be best adressed live rather than on the forum. I keep on hearing the "agressive" group issues because I'm french speaking and so are they. What I would like to do here is get some people together who will adress the problem, find a solution and apply it. And not everybody reads the fora.

I know of two sides. One of them considers the Kami/Kara/Marauder conflict as a total war for which the only time for a truce is when the Kitins come in force and threatens everybody's existence. The other side considers there are areas or times of conflicts and areas or times of truce, even cooperation. For those in a state of total war, cooperation with the ennemy is impossible. For the other group, being considered traitors to their cause (or other even more unsavory epithets) is very hard to accept.

When I'm talking about major issues, I'm thinking about accusations that have been made to national guilds because they didn't get involved in battles where their nation was opposing their faction. I'm also talking about the feeling many of the "total war" guilds have that, to access some content of the game (heavy marauder armor, for example), they don't have the numbers to manage anything because a big part of their faction would rather do it with a bigger, multi-faction coalition than support their faction.


I am giving examples. What I believe is you have to get people together to talk about it. Major guilds' leaders can enforce some rules better than the animation or event team can. And if you get people together, the major issues of both sides will also be addressed, which really is the most important thing there. Zhoi is absolutely right when she says refusing resurrection to young players eventually discourage them from playing this game.

I will stop this now, but I think some kind of a UN group meeting on a regular basis to ensure measures are taken to keep the game fun and fair is just as important as the assemblies of the various nations.

Ingfarah; either you didn't read my post - might have been too long for you? - or you assume that I'm lying.

I clearly said that players have already been trying to talk to these inconsiderate players often enough, ingame and outgame. I already said that griefers refuse to listen. It seems like they view any player and guild that want them to be more considerate as "enemies" - for whatever alleged "roleplaying"-reason they can make up for that. And when "enemies" suggest something to them they will of course not listen. Not even OOC.

However it is not the "job" of players to talk other players into being more considerate so that the community will not dwindle anyway. Because players do not have the means or competences to stop inconsiderate players. I already said that as well. There are designated people to do this kind of job - CSRs.

So sadly yes - it is indeed time now to call the "police" - or parents if you will. Before it is too late and we'll see more players leaving the game.

Why should anyone want others to stop roleplaying? It's exactly the opposite that I and kindred spirits want.

Why should anyone be banned? What I am suggesting as a first step is much simpler - as Bittymacod has already assumed correctly.

It would be a good start if Event-Managers would use their roles of rulers and officials to remind as many characters as possible at our political Assemblies and at events of the Universal Declaration of Homin Rights for example. They could also remind characters to stay true to the principles/values of the Nations - and name some of those principles/values specifically that imply consideration.

They could even tell Homins IC to treat all strangers well - especially new refugees - as are they are the citizens of tomorrow and should not get any bad impressions of guilds of their Nations but the opposite instead. Even those Homins who are now "neutral" can still be persuaded to become a citizen in the future and such should not be discouraged or even scared off. For Marauders at least treating newcomers with care and help them up if in a coma could be phrased IC accordingly.

After that inconsiderate players cannot easily claim alleged "roleplaying"-reasons for their insults and their failure to render assistance any longer. At least they will have to reveal their true colours then.

I'll make two parts of this post this time :)
to be continued...

... continuation

Yes, indeed: those who act much too inconsiderate (OOC) in their attempt to dominate other players and are faking "roleplaying-"reasons to declare whoever they want as "worthy to be insulted" are in fact guilty of making other players consider leaving the game. There is no other "group".

There are some griefers who do not want to admit that they are griefing, and... well, everybody else - who is not always of the same mind of course, but is still treating others with a minimum of respect. So what "sides" should there be? I can't make out anything like that. I also do not share the opinion of the CSRs that there are different playing-styles "typical" for language groups by the way; as I know of many different examples.

I view it as a big problem that CSRs are very reluctant to "penalize" characters in roleplay, even if RP-logic would demand it. Because in reality this is not IC; it is purely an OOC-behaviour. And a typical one.

CSRs are usually trying to be fair to everyone. But as they have to deal with rulebreakers a bit too often they tend to be even more considerate towards these people - to not "misjudge" them unfairly, to not let emotions get the better of them, to not feel provoced and then go too far with punishments, to not be suspected of arbitrariness or favouritism and so on.

And while considering all that and giving their best to understand the rulebreakers, they tend to forget about all the other players who have been and still are affected by those who misbehave/d. Unfortunately it takes only very few players to make a lot of other players lose their gaming fun. By not stopping misbehaviour properly CSRs risk that players who have suffered from that misbehaviour will think of the CSRs as being "unfair" more than ever.

It's part of the job of a CSR to keep rulebreakers in check; as unpleasant as it is. It's an ungrateful job, granted; and I know that from experience. But you can grow into it, you can learn how to do it - and you can grow yourself on that, you can learn a lot from it.

Also in roleplaying sometimes "punishments" are needed. If someone breaks the "rules" of their Nation, sanctioning should be the logical consequence. A ruler who just lets anyone do whatever they want and merely passively watches, shunning to take any action, not daring to take sides, even breaking their "authority"-character and acting against the principles/values of their Nation by doing so, will soon be completely disrespected. This is also a logical RP-consequence. And if this goes too far not only this ruler's subjects will start to feel - and then re-act - totally confused; even the Lore might be reduced to absurdity.

I read it all right. I just don't think the offended party did adress the right people is all. And I don't think the CSRs can even adress a majority of those cases, because they are not withnesses to most of those cases.

Yes, CSRs can have some measure of control over the assemblies. I just don't think it's covering (or even preventing) a significant number of infractions. I think you'd better get important leaders or representants from guilds with numerous members (ideally) together, discuss the issues there are and set boundaries to their role playing. Guilds can enforce courtesy to some extent. Somebody's who's been thrown away from a couple of guilds because he's been reported discourteous or abusive too often is bound to end up learning he can't get away with it.

And the CSRs are right. There are typical -albeit not exclusive- playing styles, depending on the servers the people were on.

Sincerely, i think all this maze is only provoked by a very little number of players but we do a mountain because of them, without discerning.

I think Zhoi you should have to name the people who are the responsibles of the actions you mention.

I guess you speak about the matter in the last Fairhaven's Assembly, don't you ? Have you noticed that in this Assembly, on 25 people, 15 were french and all the french people spoke in english by courteousy even if a lot of the french people here didn't speak english (we had a french channel where we translate all for the french who don't understand english). I would love that these kinds of courtesy and harmony being oftener mentioned. But the only thing you seem having recorded is the discourtesy of Icus with his french emote. For yours, i will say that we did as nothing happened because this was a disturbance of our Assembly from invited people but a lot of people have thought this was unfair from Icus that... but you don't send a tell to none of the french or english present Tryker representants. I will love playing with you Zhoi but you never send a tell to french players i know in the Lakes.

Respect can only appear if we do the effort to communicate between us even if this can weakens our power in the game.

After, for the people who don't rez people because of the factions, i join you, it is a problem for having new players.

But, i can speak to you about comportments i discover after the fusion which shocked me a lot... but after all, these people isolate themselves by this... Sad but realistic.

And if we speak about what is a step to harmony between the communities more than what the things which split us ?

Just a thing to say :
I disagree with your assumption : some other homins might disagree with those rules, while still willing to be in their nation, and occasionally break them in purpose. This declaration is a principle declaration and says nothing about infringers. There are actually roleplay reasons for this. And actually your sentence has been trying to force peoples to follow your exemple.

Hi, Luth! :)

No, sorry, I do not want to name specific players. I have stressed often enough that I am talking about a "small" number of players indeed. This is the whole point of my arguments. I have never been and never will be blaming a whole language group for whatever. Instead you could see that I was talking about CSRs most of the time instead of players. Well, of course we are all human and tend to generalize sometimes; but even while doing so we still all know that there are a lot of nice, interesting and even admirable players in each language group. I do, that's for sure.

So this is exactly what I mean: please do not believe those people who say "the French / German / English speaking players do this and that" to tell the "absolute" truth. Things are always relative. Do not believe that specific language groups are to blame for the current conflicts.

Especially not because their style of roleplaying is like this or that. Different roleplaying-styles are just fine! That is not the real problem we are facing here. In fact the assumption about whole language groups offending others is all wrong and an alleged "roleplaying-issue" does not even exist - it was just brought up by some people as a whitewash and maybe an attempt of distraction.

When addressing the last Assembly in Fairhaven, I did not find fault in most of the players. If I had I would have said so; but I'm not the type to do accuse a whole language group for what a few players of that language group do. By the way nearly all German players have always used English too since the first four large Assemblies with the many translations. Well, at the last Assembly of the three citie's Nobles in Yrkanis it was different, that is one occurence that I was hinting at in my first posting.

In Yrkanis there was a lot of talking in French and only a few things were translated roughly. Also an open letter that would have been important for the whole topic had not been translated. So the voting about this matter was later on controverted, non-French-speaking players regretted the choice they made because of the lack of translations.

Also the request to first clear up voting-rights and that a balance of the cities should be ensured was "overheard" and just overrun by some players. And the CSR silently stood by. And so it's the CSR that I blame, not the players. Because it's not the player's job to ensure order and mutual respect. It's the CSR's.

No, I would never say "the French" do this and that. Because I cherish llively roleplay and I assume that most roleplayers are very nice people. I am thankful to be able to play roleplaying together with them. I am also grateful for the hard job of voluntary translation and I always thank players who take this on them. And I do not blame the players if they cannot manage to translate. But the CSR's inactivity is something I do critizise.

In fact if it's about Fairhaven I was also unhappy with what the CSR said at that time. The CSR said that if anyone had a problem with thought-emotes of other players s/he should use a tell to talk about that with the player it concerns. But my very first reaction when that one player suddenly changed from English to French (which he knows I do not understand) to make a comment or emote about my character, was to make a small hint at needing a translation. So asking for a translation is something "unwanted"?

I did not want to interrupt the Assembly, so at first I only used a question-mark, nothing more, as I expected that a translation would follow. I did not plan to say anything else OOC at all. But the request was refused by that player on full purpose, even though he is very well capable of writing English and has done so before and after that one emote in which he encluded my character.

That player said that my character should be unable to "hear" a thought-emote - which he seemingly stated as a reason for his refusal of a translation. The problem is that I as a player didn't even know that it was a thought-emote because I was not able to understand a word. The very rough translation provided by a friendly player sadly also did not make this clear, so I pleaded for more respect OOC. I have not been forced to make any OOC-comments during roleplaying at all for months, if not years until the server-merge.