English

It has been my experience that a percentage of players are employing pvp tactics in non pvp zone repeatedly and seemingly without consequence.

Some rudimentary examples would be

1) A team (X) is engaged with a boss hunt in a non pvp zone. A second team (Y) arrives and drags aggro upon the team X disrupting their hunt resulting in either team X dying, or a delay in the hunt as team X struggles to kill the dragged aggro and/or resurrect fallen players.

2) While team X is engaged in a boss hunt, team Y also begins attacking it, sometimes with superior numbers possibly resulting in dealing more damage and the right to loot.

3) combinations of 1 & 2.

4) A forager has just popped supreme mats and another player(s) comes in dragging aggro resulting in the death of the first digger and their popped mats being dug.

5) A forager waiting for weather to change for supreme mats repeatedly has aggro dragged upon them by others resulting in numerous deaths and with them leaving the area.

I understand that CSR's need evidence as tickets are submitted. But I would like to know why the aggregate of tickets against the same players/guilds posted by various players over time does not result in having more serious consequences being meted out? Or why new tickets for similar behaviors from players with a history do not carrying more weight? If a set of players/guilds has a constant history of irregular behavior but each new offense is treated like the first time, then the consequences have little effect. The players/guild still have the mats, a ban doesn't stretch into a new season change. In effect, there is nothing to deter such behavior from continuing.

Additionally it seems that all that needs to be done by a player is to simply profess innocence of such actions by saying things like: "I was only trying to help", "I was only running away from the aggro and didn't see them", "I was engaged in tagged RP with others and there happened to be collateral damage" and with that nothing is done.

So is there a system in place to help mitigate the actions of a few players utilizing pvp tactics in non pvp zones? Is there a graduated set of consequences for repeat offenders?

Please note this is not about nerfing pvp for those who enjoy this style of play. I actually think pvp could use some help in regards to rewards etc. But pvp has some mechanics in place to shield it from those that do not wish to engage in it as this is a sandbox game. My concern is in regards to the use of pvp tactics in non pvp zones repeatedly by a few and with obvious intentions of gaining from it despite verbal protests of innocence or ignorance.

I realize that CSR's are busy and purely volunteers but I also think that the voices of those that have been wronged deserve more than they are currently receiving.

A revamped set of Codes of Conduct would be helpful, along with consequences that have some bite. Or simply say, the game is undermanned on many levels and to simply get away with what you can by having superior numbers while employing Machiavellian tactics. Or maybe a bit of both? Because currently I see players mining the grey area of the game to their advantage at the expense of the game's integrity in regards to its fine community.

I agree that aggro dragging like that is a form of abuse (of the victims, rules and game mechanics) and repeated abbuse should result in a ban - preferably a permanent one.

I don't agree a change in the CoC is needed, this behaviour is already covered, it just needs to be applied.

There's nothing worse than minding your own business and digging away and some @#£$% drags aggro on you, even when it's accidental. I had it happen to me last week in FF, there were several of us digging, one of who was afk. A player I wont name, yet, came running through dragging a Tyrancha, it targetted the AFK player, then me, and they just kept running and left us to die. I didn't, no thanks to them, and was able to resurrect the other player too. If you accidently drag aggro, have the decency to go back and help!

I agree that those practices are unruly and should be punished. And I agree further that witnessings are a means of proof no less than a screenshot which frequently does not prove anything. Witnessings are evidence even in courtroom, why not here?

Yet I think that ban is not an appropriate method of punishment. Temporary ban is something a hard headed offender laughs about and misbehaves elsewhere in the meantime. Permaban is a lose-lose scenario, the company loses a sub, the player access. Death penalty is not very educating.

What is missing are punishments that hurt. For example, a repeatedly offending player being demoted by 1, 2, or 5 levels in one or more of the top skills. 100 or more sup mats being confiscated from apartment, packers, or guildhall. Measures that do not drive somebody off the game, but make misbehaviour painful.

So is there a system in place to help mitigate the actions of a few players utilizing pvp tactics in non pvp zones? Is there a graduated set of consequences for repeat offenders?

Yes

All reported incidences with credible evidence are investigated and behavior profiles are complied against players accounts. A series of warnings are given to repeat offenders before more serious sanctions are applied and none of theses warnings or sanctions are made public knowledge and never will be.
The same applies to guilds but typically it is the behavior of a few players that gives guilds bad reputations.

Unfortunately there are always players that will play right on the limits of rules old and new, and most volunteers find the task of regulating behavior distasteful and not really what they signed up for.

What about players who actually want to volunteer for this distasteful task of regulating players who are easily able to abuse others by standing on the line?

Go here:
http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/42977

Thanks, Mokoi, for the clear words.

Eruv, while I'm sure any volunteering is encouraged and happily accepted, any community should be careful, if not suspicious, about folks who want to sign up for regulatory positions. The problem here is that it is not obvious who would be a neutral referee or ombudsman and who would have personal interest in one side or the other. I'd rather trust folks who've been active on the volunteering side for a longer time and are thus known to the rest of the team. _Especially_ if they are hesitant to take on regulatory positions.

Back to topic, I do agree that folks fleeing and dragging aggro should watch their radar for other users on 150m range. After survival I always track back, and try to follow the aggro back to where it started to see if there was collateral damage. It's really hard to miss if the other players were active. But sometimes the aggro catches an afk player. Then it's good to /tell them and resurrect them also.

For the other cases, the on-purpose griefing I agree with Daomei on the point that in-game loss of items and skills is a much more effective measure than bans, for the reasons she already outlined.

While we don't want public lists of the actions against toons/accounts, maybe there could be an open discussion about the rough guidelines of measures against toons and accounts.

Mokoi, are you at liberty to share any guidelines? Does it make sense if the player community discusses these guidelines? I'm all in for power to the people. Especially because we're a small community, and because the volunteers applying the rules against former fellow players are part of that community.

Maybe you could take that back to the team of volunteers if we could have an official thread in all three languages to discuss measures against misbehaviour?

So do I, which reinforces the fact that if you're claiming it was an accident and not deliberate, you should go back and help. The "I was only running away from the aggro and didn't see them" excuse only carries weight to me if you help the team you've just caused hassle to. Any other action is just cow droppings and deserves everything it gets.

All I need to know is summed up in the following quote.
"and most volunteers find the task of regulating behavior distasteful and not really what they signed up for"

Well, while the volunteers may find it distasteful, it's sort of part and parcel of the job.. we dont' find the behaviour any more to our liking as players.

Not bothering to police and enforce rules is laziness that will lead some to leave the game, not something we can really afford here. Being a little bit bad guy when hiding behind the CSR avatars isn't that difficult to handle, it's unpleasant sure, but just one issue that needs addressing.

There are some that are milking your tolerance of aggro dragging, to the point it's making the environment distasteful for us players at large.

When beaten at PVP certain groups will always be counted on to drag aggro in, they get the sup mats this way all to themselves time and time again. Is that any more fair?

I think you may have misinterpreted my "distasteful " comment
At no time has this ever been a problem as these sorts of issues are typically allocated to a more senior CSR and delt with in the appropriate manner.

What I am suggesting is that volunteering to be a CSR and waving a big shiny stick around is perhaps not as glamorous as what maybe perceived at first and the retention rate of CSR's is very low as a result.

The base guidelines we work from are found here :
http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/21705

These guidelines have been around for a very long time, for those of you who have not had a read please take the time to do so.
With any dispute always try to raise a dialogue and/or discussion with the player to find out if whatever happened was an accident or on purpose etc. If there is no response from these tells then this could be interpreted as an admission of premeditation .. whatever the case screen shots of these discussions are a manditory requirement when you raise a support issue, screens showing a series of events are all to easy to be misinterpreted, whereas a screen shot of a chat screen where the response is " suck it up dude" or similar is pretty self explanatory.