IDEAS FOR RYZOM

heheh well try what i refer to as real pvp and you'll see the difference :) Shame your leaving I like hearing people's thoughts on the idea of new pvp items.

All arena-like ideas are terrible by default. Screw them all. PvP being locked up in any sorts of cages and pinfolds like arenas and battlegrounds is a trademark of theme-park games. It has nothing to do with sandbox and freedom. Do i really have to go into some kind of locked room to enjoy what i want to enjoy? It's like running being restricted to gyms and stadiums; like you can't run neither in parks, nor in streets, not even in your backyard. Everyone knows what arenas do to PvP. Basically, they kill it, turning it into competition over rewards, points, titles, ladders, whatever, with farming, leeching, preset matches and cheating of all kinds. Like there is no other way of PvP gameplay, but degrading it down to events and farming. Such a carebearish approach.

Note that all these ideas come from people that had little to none experience in PvP, yet they feel they are competent enough to give out advices and guidelines on how PvP, namely its tagged version, must be handled, treated and rewarded.

Tumbleweed --

In the modern world, PvP is restricted to Arenas: Only criminals indulge in PvP on the streets and in the fields. I admit that the possibility of "innocent bystanders" is greatly reduced in the game, but not entirely.

You complain that such restriction will turn it into "competition over rewards, points, titles, ladders, whatever,..." However, the initial purpose of this thread was to call for more rewards for PvP in game. You ignore the fact that the arena idea was put forth as a way to publicize PvP, not as the only possible venue for it.

I will ignore the comments about " farming, leeching, preset matches and cheating of all kinds," since those are altogether possible with any game system; they are not limited to arena matches.

And yes, I do feel competent to give advice; I have real-world experience and I live in the game. I also can think and speak. You may debate me, or just ignore my advice as you wish; I do not pretend to any coercive authority, nor would I want any.

With respect (really) --

Bittty.

I would like to apologise to the original poster virg who i consider a friend if i may say so. It was not my intent to swing this forum topic in this direction but many posters have very negative ideals and have forced it in this direction, if you would like, i can kindly delete all of my posts far in this topic, move the arena idea to a new post (i have been writing up a new post with some structure, it is not ready yet) i do not like when things get so far off topic from the original.

originally you were calling for new content, or rather finishing current content, tumbleweed mentioned that it is indeed true that one skirt is simply unfinished content, eruv supports finishing this content but in the mean time asked what virg's thoughts were on pvp-only armor or player made arena. virg and a few others replied positively for a few posts thereafter, the idea merits its own forum post if virg does really like the idea, virg can post it since virg has more pull than eruv at this time :P

the later on added pvp arena idea gained some ground by a few player comments and should be moved to a new post, i have since then stopped speaking about the arena IDEA (it is just that, an idea) because i do not want to steal the post but i simply had to reply further.I am too stubborn and stupid to listen to good sense and stop replying, so this will now be messy.
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there IS a difference in DIFFERENT FORMS of PVP tagged PVP is not the ONLY way to PVP , in case anyone missed it, PVP means player versus player it does not mean, i spill your blood and look down on you for your ideas or your opinions because I am better than you, oh little homin who knows nothing of "real" pvp

so this is now a philosophical and not a logical position. real is dependent on the definer and the definition, you have no claim on what real means in excess of my own claim. today we are equals here.

now you can say "standard free tagged pvp anywhere anytime" or whatever. i never disputed that teamed fights go on all over atys i see many of them and have been involved in some, thank you very much gods of pvp. i do not believe that one should ignore a part of the world. but i have a right to participate when and how i want to without being judged. i am not trying to take away attention from your grand lovely real pvp that is so much better than anything else on all of atys besides stinga rum.

Tumbleweed as virg pointed out there is a DIFFERENCE in the arena IDEA and general tagged "real" pvp. I do not stand for having my words misrepresented so I must reply. No one is saying pvp should be restricted just to an arena. on the contrary I only suggested what i did to EXPAND the possibilities. it is YOU who are imposing restrictions by pissing on a perfectly good idea

let me explain something to you, you who think you are better qualified and who judge me. You are full of negative energy and you only see the bad in the idea. i would not care if people like you do not participate in this "sideshow" so take your dark cloud somewhere else. I never said it was a perfect idea. i never said there would not be problems. in everything there is someone who will want to farm or cheat or use and abuse a system for their own selfish gain. do not blame that on me.

To make this idea a bit more clear i will state the following:

this is not to replace "real" pvp
this is not to tell anyone what to do or how to play
this is not to restrict anyone

this is to add another dimension to the world
this is to allow other players who might actually LIKE the idea to help form it (and some do)
this is to invite participation and ideas and helpful comments

and for the record who are you to judge competency of who can or cannot give advice or who has the right to do so? you are just another person, like me. kindly remember that when speaking to anyone else. i do not care what your experience or qualifications are, you do not know mine, do not presume to know me.

And virg, you enjoy being the antagonist to provoke replies anyway, we all know it and in fact, i like that part of your persona because i enjoy it too, i just don't get to let it out as freely as you have :)

I will go head to head with anyone who has something CONSTRUCTIVE to say because dear friends and homins i am a person too and i have a right to my words and my ideas and my opinions. i have a right to try to speak when it think it is something worth doing. you have a right to ignore or disagree with me but no in the current fashion of discussion. let it be. continuing to banter in this way will only result in a bad outcome.

you have your way, i have mine and you know what, i will do BOTH unlike some who will consistently believe their way is better and anyone else's is second rate. i have respect for your fun and i ask that you have respect for entrepreneurism. you have your thoughts i have mine. we do not have to agree. but i will never look down on you for what you like and you should not look down on me for trying to help add content to a world severely lacking.

be my guest and wait around until the devs have time to make your new pvp marauder fancy armors for your real pvp. im sure you will get it, the devs LIKE pvp they WANT pvp they encourage it. why do you think marauder update was high on the list in the last post about whats coming next? why do you think they wanted us to tag up during temple events? you'll get your cake and eat it but don't try to tell me how to be, what to think, what i am qualified to say, or what real is.

if it appears to you that i have taken your replies too personally then you had better consider that it might be partly your fault for presenting your own thoughts and ideas in the forceful, perhaps even brutish manner you have. Yes that's right i said brutish, you do not see me trying to beat down your idea with a stick do you? i try to see the positives in what you say. i try to support your position when i can. can you not do same?

i want you to have your new content, i want anything that will encourage new players. including player generated new content that encourages exposure to pvp. do you clearly understand my position or do i need to write 10 more pages to get my point across?

Sincerely Eruv

Any further problems with anything i say can be handled in an email or a tell, i believe this topic has done some good work and perhaps should now be left alone. Virg, again, if you liked anything here (as you have stated you did like the pvp-only armor idea) i encourage you to make a separate post as i will make another for the arena idea. there is not much left to be gained in this topic in its present form, and i hope it is locked

Eruv you have done nothing wrong topics always sway of course no matter what :) The whole reason I made this topic was to see people's views on it and the more comments the better as hopefully a dev/GM is reading this topic and *crosses fingers* liking some of the ideas. PvP attracts certain types of players- many that have left this game, but hopefully with new implementations making it easier to get gear whilst PvPing these types of players will stick around more.

I may consider remaking this topic as im sure anyone just finding it now will not really want to be reading through all these comments to see where the discussion has led :P

I don't actively PvP (apart from in OP wars) meaning I don't run around tagged.
Despite Virg's efforts to get me involved, I usually find myself watching from the side as a cheerleader.

I'll make this clear from my perspective -
I am intimidated with PvP... I know very little about it, in general I spend little time using the Master Melee I have... Virg will talk to me about this action or that and quite frankly, I have yet to even purchase Aim For Head like actions :S

I only know what I do (and I feel its so little) of PvPing because of the amount of time I do spend with Virg and because he is so passionate he will talk a great deal about it.

I read from one post that someone did not want to PvP because they simply did not find it entertaining. Thats fine.... but I believe that the majority of people who are not active in PvP are not active because they know so little about it.

Issues:
1. Culture of the players
- We are not yet at the stage where the majority run around tagged
- The culture is set from when the player enters Silan and is then welcomed in ML and follows the pace of the masses

2. Lack of information
- There is no PvP manual... you learn because either (a) someone teaches you or (b) you learn from experience because you really WANT to PvP for whatever reason
- We are able to Tag ourselves, but theres so little information to clearly state how to do this (don't expect noobs to know this...) nor what the rewards are and how they can be spent etc....

- Compare this with Ele - There is a Trainer in Silan walking you through - explaining how to set up actions and when you need to upgrade gear and ...

Solution = PvP Trainer in Silan

I did suggest this to Virg and urge him to add it into one of his previous posts, but it was never discussed further. Virg is already an adept PvPer, so I can understand why having a Trainer in Silan would not be of any use to him not other hardcore PvPers.

What would this do? 2 very important things:

1. Inform + Educate
- Just like the other trainers inform and educate I think it is very important to provide a chance for a new player to have a few missions as a beginners manual to PvPing - to make a point of saying that "THIS GAME HAS PVP!" (As an option)

2. Experience
- Enable new players to have a taste at PvPing - What its about - How to go about doing it etc...
- Theres the issue of how to implement such a proper PvP 1v1 experience but...

This is just a very basic skeleton idea... To put my views across.

I feel that this discussion just keeps losing its focus... Solve the issue by feeding its root in order to make it bloom and thrive... not trimming off the brown leaves.

That's an awesome idea :-)

And i think it could be easily implemented with one NPC explaining a few things, some missions and a silan pvp vendor:

- add missions to kami and karavan npc that dramatically affect fame after a large effort. for example a kami mission: forage 50 modified dry sap q1 around karavan camp (50 is like 500 on main land); gives +23 kami fame and -25 karavan fame, allowing players to tag up and also allows players to get neutral fame again before leaving. same for karavan.... (do something the kamis don't like or don't care for). Could also be something that has to be done in the now deserted arena.
- add pvp vendor that sells one unique awesome item for say 1000 pvp points (~8 kills), maybe the same axe that everyone got during merge. One item only to discourage ganking.

A pvp mission would be even better (gives +25/-25 temporarily and asks to kill x players) but i think there is no kill player trigger for missions yet - and missions don't have 'on cancel mission' triggers yet that could remove the fame if the mission is cancelled.

Elvanae's idea wasn't bad except that it doesn't address the fact that the stanzas required for effective PvP are too expensive for a newb to buy on Silan.

Casy -- I know you like PvP, but the point to Silan is NOT to get a head start on the game, but to train people in the game mechanics, give them a (tiny) bit of Lore and get them off to the ML. It is a tutorial area for teaching the game.

PvP is an optional extra to the game. I (almost) agree that a PvP trainer could be useful, but in my opinion they (one for each nation) should be on the ML, and they most certainly should NOT give any "uber" prize on Silan. The axe you mention is, for instance, useful up to well past level 100 (and that is the reason it is not tradeable and that it was given as an incentive to stay subscribed). There is not any item available from the Silan trainers that is useful much past level 60, and that level is only if you are a conservative player.

More importantly, why should PvP get special training? You get minimal training in how to use stanza building for dig, cast, craft and melee. You are expected to work out the rest for yourself. That is part of how Ryzom the game is built; it is based on self discovery. I am sure that you have worked out your PvP techniques based on experiment and trading information with your peers. That is how all the skills work.

Special training? May I point out there are 4 trainers to get players started on each main skill branch. Adding missions to the PvP guy (there is already someone there- he just doesn't give missions) to introduce PvP to newcomers would be roughly the same as them. If Silian is for teaching newcomers about the game then why shouldn't people be taught the basics of PvP?

The whole point of this trainer is to help people understand PvP. Elvanae's point is that PvP is difficult to get to grasps with- much more so than digging or simply nuking plants. I think missions on silian would be a great way that might get people interested in pvp- or at the very least introduce them to it.

I do like the idea of a trainer on the mainland- but if someone is interested in PvP there are many around who would be more helpful than a trainer- all you need to do is ask.

Virg --
"Special training" because PvP isn't a "game skill" like harvest, crafting, etc., and as I pointed out the "trainers" don't so much train as throw you into the deep end with hints. You don't even have to team up to beat 90%+ of the missions, even though they are set up to encourage you to do so.

PvP is an "activity", not a "skill", just like "careplanning" and "team fame runs" and "tanking."

I would not be opposed to giving the Arena dude a few missions of the same "un-training" kind as long as the rewards were not excessive. I'm not sure how they could be set up, though, because I don't know the nature of the triggers that are used for such things as the "kill yubos" mission, and whether or not they could be set up for a "kill homins" mission. It is clear (from the rest of Silan) that a "kill homins with melee" mission would not work, since there is apparently no trigger to determine the nature of the weapon used in "Kill XXX" missions.

-- B

While I agree with Bittty that there should not be an uber reward, I find the idea of a PvP trainer with PvP quests not bad at all. After all, there is already a PvP introduction NPC on Silan, that one could give the quests which ought not to begin harder than the official 4 branches.

Quite a time ago, long before the fusion, I suggested in the Arispotle ideas forum (here, in a way ;)) to create a fifth skill tree for PvP. The advantage would be that all leveling greedy homins (like me) could hardly resist such a challenge. Granted not all my ideas about were fully thought through I still think such would not be a bad idea.

In addition I think that points (if not xp in such a hierarchy) should not be given in a winner takes it all fashion, but rather one part fully given to the victor, the rest e.g. by relative damage dealt or similar. That would encourage fights with a close outcome even if one of the parties is always losing in the end.

On Silan there wouldn't be a need for special skills. I encountered some questions in uni if there was any pvp in ryzom. It just isn't clear to new players. If you like PvP you don't bother if you got the best skills already, you just start it. If you fail you will ask what your opponent did (or find out yourself which encourages new players to look into game mechanics). This is most common for beginner's PvP. This could even help new players to buy the right skills. Most are not sure what skills are best to buy first. Buy 5 stamina regen upgrades or melee protection aura? Just an example. It can help PvE gameplay too.

At the moment every main game aspect is present on silan but PvP. The arena... yes... but arena PvP is ridiculous. Noone seriously does that on ML.... Ok except us marauders haha :) But that is training for real PvP. We would not do it if there was no real PvP to train for.

It does not have to be THAT axe. Any single type of unique equipment does the trick. Maybe a Q50 faction skirt. Every activity in ryzom results in unique advantages. Every activity on Silan yields unique items. Finishing a number of voluntary PvP opponents of your level is an achievement very similar to completing chiang's missions.

I never mentioned a pvp trainer with a single word. The explanantion guy i mentioned is there to explain how to tag up, how to recognize another player who is tagged and if you need to fear him if you yourself are not tagged.

Yours
Casy without any Es

Casy --

My apologies for the intrusive "e". I have fixed it in my post above.

I would have to object to q50 anything. You don't get q50 for Chiang's mission or any other Silan activity. If PvP is a part of Ryzom activity (which it is) it is *not* a more important part than anything else and should not give greater reward. A set of pants at q45, or a q45 fancy dagger or a nice protection jewel would correspond nicely to the rewards for everything else except the Kirosta Mission (which is supposed to be the culmination of the Silan experience and an experience in "boss" fighting).

I don't see any reason not to use the Silan Arena. It may not be "real" PvP to you, but it allows both single and group combat, gives dp just the same as "real" PvP and keeps the PvPers from running rampant over Silan. The PvP dude can explain that this is just a sample and that on the mainland there are many larger areas where PvP is allowed and that once one has sufficient fame one can tag up. That gives prospective PvPers an incentive to move to the ML where they can grind fame and earn the right to tag up and run rampant across the landscape.

It also means that the dev's don't have to mess with the game mechanics to allow people to tag up in Silan, and therefore it is more likely that you might get it in an non-geological time-span.

-- Bittty

And maybe that's the difference between someone who likes PvP and someone who hates it. I just don't get why you want to spoil the PvP experience at any cost.

Why do i get to that conclusion? PvP is actually - as many stated in this thread - more challenging and need a lot more effort than hunting an easy mob like silan kirosta. And that very easy choice mob (a lot easier than a exe named, not comparable to a boss, and even bosses are easy in ryzom) even yields a full set of armor.

Or do you seriously think Kirosta is hard? :-)

Casy

Yes, I do think the Kirosta is hard, when it is undertaken by a party at the level that the devs expected people to cap out on Silan, which is to say no one in the party over 30 in magic or melee, no HA, few if any jewels. With assistance from high level "Silan welcomers", yes it's easy. ((Off topic, perhaps we should put a level cap into Silan the way there was in the old days?))

And low level PvP on Silan is *not* more challenging than PvE because the newbs don't have the stanzas and don't have even the idea for techniques. If high level PvP is challenging, it is precisely because it *is* high-level.

I cannot emphasize enough that while I dislike PvP, I am debating this honestly. Silan is meant to be a training ground in game mechanics, not in everything that the game can be. Simple digging, simple making, simple hitting, simple casting. If we add PvP to that, it should be "simple PvP", and that's the Arena. That's not a matter of "hating PvP", that's a matter of keeping things balanced.

-- Bittty

P.S. I don't hate PvP, I just dislike it very much. Hate is far too strong a word in my vocabulary to use on PvP in a game.