IDEAS FOR RYZOM

Tumbleweed: That attempt of a comparison is illogical and futile. Nobody forces a crafter to dig, to fight or to do magic. Nobody forces a fighter or hunter, be she PvE or PvP, to dig, craft, or explore. And nobody forces a PvP only player to do any digging, crafting, scouting, or hunting.

Granted everybody starting with such "only" scheme will fail. We often have new players asking whether they have to learn digging, crafting and {magic | fight} in Silan, though they only intend to be a mage/fighter. Most of them learn soon that this game is different under this respect, some leaving, some staying.

A "crafter only" will need somebody to carry the mats, and may have trouble to find such. She will as well need armor, jewels, and weapons as well. Inside guilds some cooperation and division of labor is sensible and may take place as not everybody wants to master all ecos or crafting skills, some not even a single one. And sure, specialist mages, melee, and ranged fighters have their place there as well. But a digger will have a hard time when having no fight branch up, especially in high level regions, not to speak about magic and fighting abilities and their interdependencies. That is not a flaw but a general characteristic of the game. Why should PvP players be exempt from unless they are locked up in their ghetto like in GW1?

What you call "PvE rewards" are rewards for all, not for PvE players only. What you asking for are exclusive privileges for PvP players breaking the principle of Ryzom that all parts of the game are interconnected and have
to cooperate. What you are asking for, is, in other words, a PvP class breaking the principle of a classless game. And additionally, they would always be able to use these privileges in PvE as well.

The role of PvP is not such a small one in Ryzom. Of the foraged superior materials are under control of PvP gameplay
- 100.0% of q150
- 066.6% of q200 (075.0% if Nexus will be up again)
- 050.0% of q250.
In addition, it is 100% of OP materials.

That means that all non PvP players who want access to that body of materials have to cooperate with PvP players. I do not see that PvP players are in any way worse off than diggers or crafters.

Btw., I had a look to the q250 PvP pants offered for 42k faction points at PvP merchants. The stats are impressive, compared to Dante: hp/sap (120/120 vs 100/100), only dodge (2 vs. 3) worse, Prot: 33% vs. 25%, 336 vs. 224. A complete set would probably pose a balance problem.

Ok, what Casy wrote about the bug in the fame based faction identification should be fixed soon, out of the question. Beneath that, I don't find a 320fp/kill that bad, compared to the 50-200fp for a basic occupation product at the NH transporter. That one is limited to 35mats/day, and once the bug allowing 99% civ fame for non-citizens will be gone, that means that daily gain will be capped to 1750fp/day for neutrals while remaining at 7000fp/day for full famed citizens only.

That the product may be q10 does not help a lot. I tested with a smaller char from my account, she needed longer to collect a set of 4/4 q10 water carrier certs in Fairhaven (16min) than me for 4/4 q60 ones in Loria (11min). To get 35 products it needs nearly 2 occs with 100% recipe, so let us say, 25-30minutes, additionally 10-15 minutes to hand the stuff over to the transporter, maybe doing a teleport or two to get free slots.

How long does it take to do a kill in case the purpose is winning fp? Don't tell there is no collusion, and all fp are won in hard, long, fair fights of peers. I am, btw., not familiar with the rules to attribute PvP points, yet I heard that if the faction-fame constellation fits, even a kill of a 200 lvls weaker foe does count as long as she is tagged. Is that true?

No, not true. Ryzom calculates levels of both in some obscure way. If the dead guy's levels are about 30 below the living guy's he gets nothing. If the dead guy's level are way above the living one gets a bonus (already factored in my 320pts, base is 160).

The big difference is in the preparation. While you need good gear and many masters to successfully kill people (i dont gank) and only the last hit results in points (bad for teams), the faction points stuff can be easily done by anyone. Getting an alt ready to do faction points takes one or two weeks of casual daily play (and it will automatically gain 99 fame quickly if you complete the easy civ rite). Doing 10 counting kills each day is impossible imo (roots and op pvp does not count).

Thanks, Casy, for the clarifications. Yet I do understand even less why it should not be possible to do something like an average of 5-10 kills a day, and that without attrition of precious gear in most cases. Why do PvP activists lack phantasy and talent for organization to make appointments between the factions to do training fights in training gear, with some rules (max/min level of either side, armor and weapons used etc.) with the outcome that everybody gets a couple of kills, everybody learns and has fun, and everybody collects PvP points? A good fight ought not last for tens of minutes.

If I observe it correctly, the athmosphere between PvP oriented players nowadays is ways more relaxed than it was in Leanon where the interfaction relations sometimes erupted in hatred. So it should be possible to do something like that. In a way, it would be "PvP point farming", but who cares as long as all have fun?

Ok I try to pull together what my concern is:But later:
There lays the crux in my initial point. You basically ask for a short cut for players who do not want the digging/crafting bit. We do have an ingame economy and when taking away the "existance" of players producing items, then you kind of kill the game, don't you think?
Why not empowering the diggers/crafters und thus increasing the economic flow of things?
Currently most crafters only do standard stuff for leveling... the things you love to get good at PvP, but beyond that?

Let me pose it differently for you to be able to prove me wrong:Please can you find me an equivalent armour on the same quality with "easy mats" (hence only excelent or choice)? Is that possible?
Reason for that, excelent mats are easier to obtain, hence if an armour is possible on loot/dig mats then crafting is superior and PvP players need a balance for the current system.

Alternative question if required:
What minimum quality of mats (supreme?), what minimum quality of craft item (q230?) with what tool (OP-tool?) would create a similar outcome based on stats for an armour?

You may want to compare amounts of mats, crafting procedures and time against the purchase of PvP armour (probably based on kills) and the killing of NPCs.

Jsu curious :-)

 

Indeed. It's not a person forcing the rules, it's the game itself and its mechanics. Said crafter isn't forced to dig, true. But crafting and digging are going hand by hand. It would take ages to train crafting skills using only mob loot, buying mats from market or taking mats from others. So our crafter have to dig. What if he doesn't like digging? Well, good luck mastering these jewel craft branches in next, what, ten years? What if that crafter doesn't like to fight? Well, good luck surviving all the packs of aggro hanging around when you go out of town for a sightseeing trip. So the crafter have to train some melee skill, preferably to the top. He or she could neglect magic, but it's really useful to clean up some aggro, or rez others, and the crafter goes to train magic. There is still nobody forcing him to do so. But he have to. Maybe all he wants to do is crafting and searching for new recipes. Not melee. Not magic. Just crafting. But he have to do a lot of other stuff in order to enjoy what he wants to enjoy. Because otherwise all he gets is frustration and a ton of DP, thus he forced to go some strictly predefined way - train digging, train melee, train magic, get the gear, yada yada. You still call that game a sandbox? Mkay. 

Same goes for a hunter or PvP player. He indeed could live for awhile using guild supplies. But how long that would last? "Hey you worn out that set of boss jewels our guild was struggling to collect in last half year! And you worn it fighting other like-minded jerks just because you wanted some fun? Ok, no more rare jools for you. Here, take this set of choice grade." Oops, sorry - you like PvP, but now you have to get better mats for better gear first. And there is no other way to get them, but PvE. 

PvP rewards are rewards for all in the same way as PvE rewards are. You don't need some VIP-access to get PvP rewards. You don't have to know a password, have a character of certain race, pay real life money or do a striptease for someone in order to get them. None of that. Oh wait. There is one requirement though. You have to do some PvP to get them. But everyone can do it as well, just like everyone can dig supreme mats or hunt bosses. Do i take it right - in your humble opinion PvE rewards are "for all" because everybody's supposed to love say camping supremes, doing nothing for hours and hours, apart from hitting same button every 9 minutes. And PvP rewards are "exclusive" because some people don't like PvP, hence the rewards are inaccessible for them. Since when personal preferences determine exclusivness?..

Following your logic, supremes are "exclusive" and inaccessible for me as i don't like to wait for them to pop. Yet i recently dug some after wasting about 8 hours to get 20 units of mat. I didn't like it at all, nobody forced me, but i had to do it. 

Everyone going along the same way whether they like it or not in so called "sandbox" game seems ok to you. Replace PvE with PvP and it becomes an "illogical and futile comparison". And people asking for more choices available to everyone are making "PvP class" as their choices don't fit yours.

*shrug*

Maybe I should give up.
That is what I call illogical. I can give away freely my NPC armor pieces, plan snippets, and crystals to anybody. Same goes with the complete armor. Everybody may use it, in PvE, RP, PvP. Kindly give me your PvP skirt and shield, or prove that it cannot be used for PvE.

That again is what I call illogical. You can receive sup by everybody who owns some, be it for dappers, friendship, or services rendered. Moreover, you may gladly do PvP protecting "your" sup digger at the supernodes. You get OP mat as a reward when serving as PvP merc during OP fights.

Again: What is asked for is that PvP players get exclusive privileges obtaining their gear by PvP solely. And they may use those objects everywhere in the game, with attributes far above what others are able to craft.

Haha Thumbleweed, you reminded me of some things I experienced in the past (and up to now) here in Ryzom - thanks for that :-)

But back to topic (more or less):

I'm one of those people who like crafting but don't really like digging and I can second that leveling with loot is hard (esp. because hunting non-agros is something not done too much - except for ploderos)
I know a lot of crafters that are happy to craft something for you if you deliver the materials, some will even take alternative mats and take some from their own stock instead to make a good item for you. (like you give armor mats and get some good jewels)
On the other hand: the prime roots can be dangerous in some areas so some harvesters might pay you with part of the mats if you protect them from harm (mobs and players)
This is mostly how it works inside guilds but it can be done across them as well.

You want the sup zun amber? You'll have to go in the roots and dig for it and maybe take some protection with you. Or you could ask you favorite harvester "want to dig sup zun next season change? I'll protect you if you give me a small share"
You want the sup yelk moss? You'll have to fight Yelkoo often enough to collect the amount needed.
Or you could ask you favorite fighters "If you get me this amount of yelk moss I can give you something I crafted in exchange"

This is the way I've got all my gear up to now... since 2004.

In some cases you might even be able to buy the items with dappers - but to be sincere I doubt this possibility regarding HQ mats.

But back to the PvP aspect:
If you hear of an OP fight you can always barter with the defenders/attackers (or both depending on your alignment) that you help them defend/attack their op for a slight contribution of some kind.
I said barter because the amount will depend on the fact if they your help or not AND how known your skills are. So it might be a set of jewels or just one single sup zun amber it all depends on your "real" fame ;-)
Same goes for protection in the PvP roots now that the servers are merged since a while it is obvious that there are more marauders (or just people from an opposing faction) that are attacking there - so the harvesters might want protection from them as well as the mobs and thus making it possible for you to get a share even while practicing your favorite thing in the game.
Yes you're depending on the harvesters to get the mats and the crafters to build something nice.
But the harvester is depending on you as well to dig the mats and the crafter on you to deliver some nice loot (plans, crystals)

I won't say that the balance is perfect just that the basic concept IS balanced even between PvP and PvE lovers...

Something that might be a good idea though would be to enable the setting of needed faction/civ points for items in the normal merchant:
the one putting it into the merchant could say "you have to either pay base + 10k dappers or base + 1 karavan point (base = what the player gets from the merchant)

virg is not a genius he is a very naughty boy.....ps spend more time in the casino!


pppps. pvp suxxorz.... :P

pppppps. implement the politik, make fame worth while create proper wars... not the poxy pvp / 250 kill the littleones we have....

just to add to one poster's reply there.... i've been trying to get people to trade me loot mats for dig and honestly the suggestion is open, i did not specify a 1:1 ratio or anything.... still almost no one has said yes :P

a few have, thanks to you though :)

http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/16378/1# 1

digging sups in PR is tedious for many reasons MANY reasons... and training all my combat up too to hunt with others will take some time, it is hard to do everything at once, at the moment i am engaged in recipe hunting and jewel master efforts,

if you could buy things way better than what i can get digging, with pvp points, i will happily give up digging

i am not saying this is the meaning of the poster but... i am all for content, of any kind , for any type of player... just be mindful that digging and crafting are a lot of work and they should have good rewards.

i do not enjoy sitting for hours waiting on sups hitting the track/pop button, but i do play the advantages. make use of everything that you can, ryzom has a lot of down sides, if you can do something for your advantage without stepping on someone else i say do it

i can dig my sups train my skills fight bosses and pvp all in one, it will take some time but it is the logical progression of atys. you cannot simply be "oh i love pvp lets go!!" logically you will be at an advantage if you dig+craft, level combat, and hunt, then pvp. no one likes waiting 9 hours on sups.

no one likes camping a boss all day. no one likes spending ages digging for 0 exp just to get mats to master crafts then, when crafting high end mats getting degrades or fails.

as a community we can choose to split these burdens with friends, teams, guilds, or we can compete and make things harder for others to get them while hoarding our own... both are valid choices, but if you need something hell i can find it :) for a fair trade

if pvp points can buy me advantageous things i will do it in some sort of fun way with people i like and not step on anyone else, i have never seen the pvp merchant yet because i am not ready to participate given my agenda for dig/craft/recipes taking priority over ele/melee/heals but i, like you, will support new balanced content for pvp points

cheers

Daomei > I assume some misunderstanding occured. Basically, all you want is removal of "no trade" attribute from PvP items, therefore making them less exclusive? I see no problems with it. Besides, marauder items are already can be traded, as i heard.

What i'm firmly against though is getting PvP points with farming missions or NPC's. 

As for issues with adding more items to PvP vendors. Jewels, generic mats, ammo and consumables should be relatively easy to implement. They need no models, only new icons and some coding being done. Now, weapons. As much as i'd love to see new designs, i understand that dev team may have troubles with modelling. They could use models taken from OP weapons. Duk-weapons for kamis, jen-weapons for karas and generic weapons for marauders. They did that already with post-merge refugees weapons. Refugee axe has model of tekorn one and refugee magic stick has model of tekorn staff. All that would have to be done is removing of vedice or tekorn bonus from them and adjusting stats. The only real problem is new armors.

This is considered a bug. Marauder items are removed from non-marauder toons upon request. Don't waste your PvP points on that :)

I fail to see how people can disagree PvP should be rewarded. It seems many people are driven to think this because they don't like it. I believe every skill on this game should have an equal reward for the time and effort that is put into it and this should be linked closely to real life.

Obviously the game designers agree that PvP should have its rewards otherwise PvP points would never have been implemented. Now we just need something worthwhile to spend them on. An odd skirt is no use to anyone and definitely overpriced for its stats at 42k (max points from a kill i believe is 320 and you can only get them from the same player every 5 minutes). This means at least 130 kills at its lowest, but probably over 260 for most players. This would take a huge amount of hours to do.

If you look at a PvE equivalent of getting decent armor look at dante. You kill him once, this takes 15-30minutes and isn't difficult and dante armor is better than the kami PvP skirt. (You may argue that the skirt is better but you don't wear LA for protection- you wear it for dodging/parrying and its 0 malus).

I wonder whats harder to get? Obviously the kami skirt with the poorer stats- this doesnt make sense. Oh and if anyone wants to argue the point that killing someone 260 times is easy lets not forget the people who would be open for fighting are the PvPers themselves and if you believe that to be an easy task come at me bro- i'll kill you in my tighty whities.

ps.
Get the casino up and running :D

Virg, what you write about Dante is simply not true. Sure one can kill Dante, where 15 minutes would be an excellent time, or die in the attempt, yet most times you might prevail. But Dante is spawning every 20hrs to 4 days only, like every mob boss. And you get exactly one piece of armour per Dante kill. That means that you need 45 runs with a full team until everybody has - theoretically - a full set of armor. It may even happen that you end up with excess boots, sleeves etc. and have to continue or look for an opportunity to barter.

Assuming Dante is appearing every day there will be 360 possible encounters per year resulting in 8 full sets of armour per team. Not a lot if you ask me, and it may even be less as one respawn per day seems overstated to me, probably bit less than a respawn every 2 days. That would mean 4 armor sets per team and year. Now consider that they do not last forever, there won't be a large stock.

Btw., I agree that PvP should have its faction point reward, and I agree to Tumbleweed's point that the faction store should contain the generic mats and other items it had before the fusion. Maybe the amount of points per kill could be adapted. Yet I do not see a real problem in finding some factional adversary and arranging training fights where imbalance may be adjusted by some handicap (less armor or so) to the stronger until one has some balance in kills. Then a good fight without heal may last a minute or two, 150-300 kills still being some grind, but not an impossible mission, definitely faster than getting one piece of PvP armor of Dante armor, and not a comparable challenge.

I never said it wouldn't take a while to acquire a set- I got 5 in a year or so before the merge. I said if you look at the equivalent of getting a single dante piece compared to the single kami/kara/maruder skirt that the dante piece is easier to get.

Also I didn't mention a team in terms of the odds because PvP points is exactly the same. Sure you can hide in the middle of the marauder camp and gank them when they walk in- but then 10 more port in at which point you need a team also- which reduces the points you get.

Usually the 2v2 fights I have last at least 5 minutes if not a lot more and if you want to even start killing tagged people you need to be with someone experienced or have good experience yourself.

I still stand firm in that dante is a lot easier to get than a PvP skirt- and has much better stats.