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#21 Added by Bitttymacod 1 decade ago [en] 

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I would also ask, why *shoulr* (in an abstract sense) PvP players get the same rewards as PvE players in a sandbox game whose emphasis is not PvP?

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Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
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#22 Added by Tumbleweed 1 decade ago [en] 

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Daomei (atys)
You want to be rewarded for doing PvP, why

Because of this:
Tumbleweed (atys)
PvP players are forced to do lots of PvE - digging, crafting, occupation runs, hunting bosses and even such boring occupancy as digging supremes. I don't want to do neither of these, i want to fight other like-minded players.

I want to obtain decent gear through my preferred activity and don't want to rely neither on PvE nor others doing PvE for me. Instead of the RL soldiers analogy mentioned above i like the medieval mercenaries analogy more. Those were paid for fighting, but also they had their fair share of loot once enemy has been defeated. Usually they didn't rely on a state or employer supplying them with armors and weapons, as they had it all from what they have been doing - fighting itself.
Daomei (atys)
Those who don't do PvP are excluded from OP mat, something you both liked to "forget".

I have no idea how it used to be on other servers, but on Arispotle it wasn't the issue. OP materials were actively traded and shared around. So were the Outposts changing hands on mutual agreements regularily. 
Daomei (atys)
So it was won by PvP.

So it could be won without PvP. There are options to choose from. It's not like you can't own OP until you kill a hundred of others in PvP.
Daomei (atys)
To me it looks much like spoiled brats who got the factions, the tags, the PvP areas, the Outposts, and get tired of the old toys soon crying for new toys.

New toys are welcome of course, but i understand that Ryzom dev team have limited resources and the issues of higher priority to work on. I want at least the old toys being fixed and finished. Right now there are like two sandboxes: one for PvE and one for PvP. The PvE one is full of toys and sand. The PvP one has almost no sand inside and all the toys in it are either broken or incomplete.
Daomei (atys)
What is wrong in my opinion, is attributing the crisis and stagnation of PvP to those gimmicks.

Of course, the reason of stagnation isn't the lack of proper rewards. The reason is that PvP in general is boring. The gear fetish and the distinct lack of variety in actions effectively kill the fun. Creativity, alertness, improvisation, the skill of a player rather than a character doesn't mean much. Imagine a duel of two AoDs, with one of them equipped with sup zun amps and boss jewels and another one, equipped with gear of excellent grade or even choice. I won't bet a single dapper on the second guy. As for stanzas, half of them is either useless or irrelevant, so in fact there is very limited choice of things to use. And the mandatory need to spend weeks (or more like months) on repetitive PvE for a hour of PvP doesn't help here at all.
Bitttymacod (atys)
I'm not getting these "huge rewards" that you're talking about.

But you have the ability to get them if you change your mind. They are already there and all that matters is if you are willing to get them or not. The PvP guilds getting most of the sups right now is the consequence of the bug, not flawed gamedesign or conception.
Bitttymacod (atys)
I would also ask, why *shoulr* (in an abstract sense) PvP players get the same rewards as PvE players in a sandbox game whose emphasis is not PvP?

It's a sandbox as you just mentioned. The essence of a sandbox is freedom of choice, isn't it? Having multiple ways of doing things and getting things, multiple options to choose from. If there is lack of said options or even just one of them, is it correct to call such game a true sandbox?
 

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Tumbleweed (1 decade ago)

#23 Added by Virg 1 decade ago [en] 

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Bitttymacod (atys)

In the real world you don't do it freelance.  You are hired, or employed, or serve.  Someone else provides your weapons, your food and (to a certain extent) your targets.  You are totally dependent on those arms crafters, development engineers,  even farmers if you want to think about it that way.  One of the reasons I like Ryzom is the reality connection, however fragile it may be since this is a game and all.

If you are talking about a real life connection. If a soldier kills another soldier who has better weapons would he not take them to replace his own? Or take them to sell them? In PvE you have the option of looting but not in PvP. If you could loot dead people's items this would mess up the game no doubt- im not asking for that. However there is your real life connection. You kill someone you get a reward (the objects on them). In this game the objects on them have been replaced by PvP points. The issue is that these points are worthless- there is nothing really worth spending them on. I would like something worth spending them on.
Bitttymacod (atys)
You say that you don't like PvE, but you do like Marauder NPC's and boss hunts.  Urmmm?

I never said I dont like PvE. I dont like digging. I enjoy PvE however in my opinion there is less skill involved. When you have killed everything there is to kill and you know that the tatics don't requiring changing it gets boring. When you can streak through any region and not die you loose the enjoyment out of it. That is why PvP will always be more challenging- players adapt their skills and change them. You dont see q270 bosses consistently attacking the healers- a good tank can always hold them off.
Bitttymacod (atys)
OP selection battles are strictly for PvPers and give you access to the highest value materials in the lands. 

OP battles are controlled by more than just PvPers. Most are heavily influenced by politics and so is the trading of OP mats.
Bitttymacod (atys)
I'm not getting these "huge rewards" that you're talking about.  But that's OK because I'm doing what I like.  However, he and I don't get Peace Points to spend in the Peace Shop and we can't get OP mats without "friends". 

Not attacking people doesn't require any skill, knowledge or tatics but PvP does.
Bitttymacod (atys)
I would also ask, why *shoulr* (in an abstract sense) PvP players get the same rewards as PvE players in a sandbox game whose emphasis is not PvP?

Tumbleweed has already said what i was going to say.

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#24 Added by Casy 1 decade ago [en] 

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I would appreciate more bosses like pai-ruz or dante. They should however be challenging.

The issues with PvP rewards are two in my opinion:

1) bugs! One of the biggest bugs is PvP points. Let's say i kill someone who is a 100 fame kami disciple and a burning fyros patriot that hates matis. 0 (zero) PvP points for me. Any Kami or Karavan without additional fames -> 0 Points. Same if a hominist/theist would do it. If I find someone who has positive but no negative civ fame i might get lucky and get a lousy 320 points. That's comparable to handing in 2 Quality 10 flowers (Given PvP and faction points share one reward and that one sets a worth relation of 8/10).

2) PvP content transformed into hominist content by the community (OPs) and PvP kept out of political conflict (politics, events).

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Casy * Foreign Secretary * Alliance of Honor
Intensive Care Bear

#25 Added by Elvanae 1 decade ago [en] 

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Bitty said that Dante is arguably the best LA in game.
If we take a look at Dante, it is an option for a fighter to be not only self sufficient but also to maybe provide for their guilds in the same way in which diggers and crafters do. Killing dante isn't PvP but it is the closet thing PvE has to offer. The same is said for Pei-Ruiz.

I think this discussion has developed into a predictable discussion between those against and those for more PvP. This is a sandbox game and it should be open to all types of players.

I struggle to accept how anyone can deny the fact that there is need for the extra 2 LA NPC in Forest and Desert. I think the way forwards now is to compromise upon what loot is dropped.
Virg (atys)
for example 2 options of using the LA NPC crystal. 1 method being similar to the NPC HA crafting way and the second method taking the crystal and using PvP points to trade for a piece. I am not trying to remove the point crafting/digging but I am trying to add more PvP orientated options.

I don't personally think that Virg's idea is a bad one. If the LA NPC in Forest and Desert were implemented, to equal Dante and Pei, they should be dropping 1 piece of LA. The issue is, should they also drop crystals which can then be used alongside PvP points to obtain a further piece + the ability to craft them with the plan.

Why not?
This is quite a strong way to promote PvP-ing and yet it is a method which caters exactly to a sandbox game such as Ryzom: the ability to chose!

If you want to craft ... go ahead and use the plan and the crystals.
If you have PvP points... go ahead and trade then with the crystals.
For what reason would one be against this? You have the choice in your hands. :)

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#26 Added by Arfur 1 decade ago [en] 

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There has to be room for PvP as well as other styles of play, and there should be equal enjoyment to be had however you play, as well as equal levels of gear available. Lets not forget that one of the things about a sandbox game is that you can try different styles of play before you settle on the one(s) that please you most.

To get back to the original post:

Forest and Desert NPCs
It has been said before but why not make ALL NPCs drop armour + weapons, in the same way that Cutes/Gibbai etc drop jewels? This would enable the lower level players who want to try PvP to practice on NPCs and get their gear that way.

Kami/kara/Marauder
It is true that there are not enough items of gear available to buy with your PvP points. This should be fixed.

Faction armour
Burning Fyros Boots? So you can hotfoot it from one region to another presumably. Seriously, though Fyros/Matis/Tryker/Zorai/Marauder armour provides lots of variation. Faction Armour based on Kami/Karavan/Hominist designs would be nice - any additional designs for gear would be nice - but this is one for the future.

Edited 4 times | Last edited by Arfur (1 decade ago)

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#27 Added by Virg 1 decade ago [en] 

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Elv and Arfur I couldnt agree more.
Arfur (atys)
It has been said before but why not make ALL NPCs drop armour + weapons, in the same way that Cutes/Gibbai etc drop jewels?

In terms of weapons- Its a nice idea. I'd just love to get a new NPC LA boss to kill. I'd also love for something worth spending PvP points on.
Arfus (atys)
Faction armour
Burning Fyros Boots? So you can hotfoot it from one region to another presumably. Seriously, though Fyros/Matis/Tryker/Zorai/Marauder armour provides lots of variation. Faction Armour based on Kami/Karavan/Hominist designs would be nice - any additional designs for gear would be nice - but this is one for the future.

Was a bit of a long shot but I thought why the hell not :P

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NB: Void respawn is where you can find the PVP, also willing to give lessons :)

#28 Added by Tumbleweed 1 decade ago [en] 

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The question itself of why PvP should be rewarded freaks me out a bit. Why not? I'm all up for PvP for fun and i really want to enjoy the process.But also i want PvP being self-sufficient and sustainable. It's not possible without looting or rewards. Perhaps the PvE lot have to look at the problem through the eyes of others?

Imagine for a minute that in order to dig supremes you have to kill someone in PvP first. Not only in Umbra, but in other regions too - Under Spring, Wastelands, whatever. And it's not an option. Actually there is no options. It's the must. If you don't kill, you don't dig. You could ask your friends to kill someone for you to fill up your quota. They aren't reliable though. Sometimes they busy, or offline, or they have no time, or bad luck, or maybe they want to do PvP for themselves.

Now, what about crafting? Imagine that in order to craft a q250 item of choice grade you have to kill say 5 players in PvP first. And if you want to craft item of supreme grade, you have to kill 50 of them. Again, it's not an option, it's the must. You either kill those 50 homins or you won't be able to craft the item. Kinda freaky, isn't it? Such situation would be one hell of a pain for PvE lovers. Instead of digging and crafting peacefully they would have to dedicate a lot of their time and efforts to the activities they don't like and don't enjoy. I'm pretty sure they would never accept this and the forums were full of rage threads and farewells.

But when the very same pattern is applied to PvP - as it is right now - all of a sudden there is nothing wrong about it to PvE folk. All is working as intended, because, you know, it's a PvE game and no new toys for PvP are needed. With attitude like this developers could remove PvP entirely from the game. It's better do nothing, then do something wrong or leave it undone. But they need PvP as selling point, to add another line to the list of features on Ryzom page and attract more players, so why don't complete it? At the aspect of balance between rewards for PvP and PvE even WoW is more sandbox than Ryzom, which is rather ironic.

#29 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago [en] 

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Tumbleweed: That attempt of a comparison is illogical and futile. Nobody forces a crafter to dig, to fight or to do magic. Nobody forces a fighter or hunter, be she PvE or PvP, to dig, craft, or explore. And nobody forces a PvP only player to do any digging, crafting, scouting, or hunting.

Granted everybody starting with such "only" scheme will fail. We often have new players asking whether they have to learn digging, crafting and {magic | fight} in Silan, though they only intend to be a mage/fighter. Most of them learn soon that this game is different under this respect, some leaving, some staying.

A "crafter only" will need somebody to carry the mats, and may have trouble to find such. She will as well need armor, jewels, and weapons as well. Inside guilds some cooperation and division of labor is sensible and may take place as not everybody wants to master all ecos or crafting skills, some not even a single one. And sure, specialist mages, melee, and ranged fighters have their place there as well. But a digger will have a hard time when having no fight branch up, especially in high level regions, not to speak about magic and fighting abilities and their interdependencies. That is not a flaw but a general characteristic of the game. Why should PvP players be exempt from unless they are locked up in their ghetto like in GW1?

What you call "PvE rewards" are rewards for all, not for PvE players only. What you asking for are exclusive privileges for PvP players breaking the principle of Ryzom that all parts of the game are interconnected and have
to cooperate. What you are asking for, is, in other words, a PvP class breaking the principle of a classless game. And additionally, they would always be able to use these privileges in PvE as well.

The role of PvP is not such a small one in Ryzom. Of the foraged superior materials are under control of PvP gameplay
- 100.0% of q150
- 066.6% of q200 (075.0% if Nexus will be up again)
- 050.0% of q250.
In addition, it is 100% of OP materials.

That means that all non PvP players who want access to that body of materials have to cooperate with PvP players. I do not see that PvP players are in any way worse off than diggers or crafters.

Btw., I had a look to the q250 PvP pants offered for 42k faction points at PvP merchants. The stats are impressive, compared to Dante: hp/sap (120/120 vs 100/100), only dodge (2 vs. 3) worse, Prot: 33% vs. 25%, 336 vs. 224. A complete set would probably pose a balance problem.

Ok, what Casy wrote about the bug in the fame based faction identification should be fixed soon, out of the question. Beneath that, I don't find a 320fp/kill that bad, compared to the 50-200fp for a basic occupation product at the NH transporter. That one is limited to 35mats/day, and once the bug allowing 99% civ fame for non-citizens will be gone, that means that daily gain will be capped to 1750fp/day for neutrals while remaining at 7000fp/day for full famed citizens only.

That the product may be q10 does not help a lot. I tested with a smaller char from my account, she needed longer to collect a set of 4/4 q10 water carrier certs in Fairhaven (16min) than me for 4/4 q60 ones in Loria (11min). To get 35 products it needs nearly 2 occs with 100% recipe, so let us say, 25-30minutes, additionally 10-15 minutes to hand the stuff over to the transporter, maybe doing a teleport or two to get free slots.

How long does it take to do a kill in case the purpose is winning fp? Don't tell there is no collusion, and all fp are won in hard, long, fair fights of peers. I am, btw., not familiar with the rules to attribute PvP points, yet I heard that if the faction-fame constellation fits, even a kill of a 200 lvls weaker foe does count as long as she is tagged. Is that true?

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#30 Added by Casy 1 decade ago [en] 

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Daomei (atys)
That the product may be q10 does not help a lot. I tested with a smaller char from my account, she needed longer to collect a set of 4/4 q10 water carrier certs in Fairhaven (16min) than me for 4/4 q60 ones in Loria (11min). To get 35 products it needs nearly 2 occs with 100% recipe, so let us say, 25-30minutes, additionally 10-15 minutes to hand the stuff over to the transporter, maybe doing a teleport or two to get free slots.

How long does it take to do a kill in case the purpose is winning fp? Don't tell there is no collusion, and all fp are won in hard, long, fair fights of peers. I am, btw., not familiar with the rules to attribute PvP points, yet I heard that if the faction-fame constellation fits, even a kill of a 200 lvls weaker foe does count as long as she is tagged. Is that true?

No, not true. Ryzom calculates levels of both in some obscure way. If the dead guy's levels are about 30 below the living guy's he gets nothing. If the dead guy's level are way above the living one gets a bonus (already factored in my 320pts, base is 160).

The big difference is in the preparation. While you need good gear and many masters to successfully kill people (i dont gank) and only the last hit results in points (bad for teams), the faction points stuff can be easily done by anyone. Getting an alt ready to do faction points takes one or two weeks of casual daily play (and it will automatically gain 99 fame quickly if you complete the easy civ rite). Doing 10 counting kills each day is impossible imo (roots and op pvp does not count).

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Casy * Foreign Secretary * Alliance of Honor
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#31 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago [en] 

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Thanks, Casy, for the clarifications. Yet I do understand even less why it should not be possible to do something like an average of 5-10 kills a day, and that without attrition of precious gear in most cases. Why do PvP activists lack phantasy and talent for organization to make appointments between the factions to do training fights in training gear, with some rules (max/min level of either side, armor and weapons used etc.) with the outcome that everybody gets a couple of kills, everybody learns and has fun, and everybody collects PvP points? A good fight ought not last for tens of minutes.

If I observe it correctly, the athmosphere between PvP oriented players nowadays is ways more relaxed than it was in Leanon where the interfaction relations sometimes erupted in hatred. So it should be possible to do something like that. In a way, it would be "PvP point farming", but who cares as long as all have fun?

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#32 Added by Razrah 1 decade ago [en] 

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Ok I try to pull together what my concern is:
Virg (atys)
The crafters have plenty of fun and have plenty to do. Currently the PVPers have next to nothing. A balance is needed.
But later:
Tumbleweed
Imagine a duel of two AoDs, with one of them equipped with sup zun amps and boss jewels and another one, equipped with gear of excellent grade or even choice. I won't bet a single dapper on the second guy. ... the mandatory need to spend weeks (or more like months) on repetitive PvE for a hour of PvP doesn't help here at all

There lays the crux in my initial point. You basically ask for a short cut for players who do not want the digging/crafting bit. We do have an ingame economy and when taking away the "existance" of players producing items, then you kind of kill the game, don't you think?
Why not empowering the diggers/crafters und thus increasing the economic flow of things?
Currently most crafters only do standard stuff for leveling... the things you love to get good at PvP, but beyond that?

Let me pose it differently for you to be able to prove me wrong:
Timna
Sirgio armor = +1 dodge +4 parry 60% 532 protec q200 +150hp/50stam
Please can you find me an equivalent armour on the same quality with "easy mats" (hence only excelent or choice)? Is that possible?
Reason for that, excelent mats are easier to obtain, hence if an armour is possible on loot/dig mats then crafting is superior and PvP players need a balance for the current system.

Alternative question if required:
What minimum quality of mats (supreme?), what minimum quality of craft item (q230?) with what tool (OP-tool?) would create a similar outcome based on stats for an armour?

You may want to compare amounts of mats, crafting procedures and time against the purchase of PvP armour (probably based on kills) and the killing of NPCs.

Jsu curious :-)

#33 Added by Tumbleweed 1 decade ago [en] 

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Daomei (atys)
Nobody forces a crafter to dig, to fight or to do magic. Nobody forces a fighter or hunter, be she PvE or PvP, to dig, craft, or explore. And nobody forces a PvP only player to do any digging, crafting, scouting, or hunting.
 

Indeed. It's not a person forcing the rules, it's the game itself and its mechanics. Said crafter isn't forced to dig, true. But crafting and digging are going hand by hand. It would take ages to train crafting skills using only mob loot, buying mats from market or taking mats from others. So our crafter have to dig. What if he doesn't like digging? Well, good luck mastering these jewel craft branches in next, what, ten years? What if that crafter doesn't like to fight? Well, good luck surviving all the packs of aggro hanging around when you go out of town for a sightseeing trip. So the crafter have to train some melee skill, preferably to the top. He or she could neglect magic, but it's really useful to clean up some aggro, or rez others, and the crafter goes to train magic. There is still nobody forcing him to do so. But he have to. Maybe all he wants to do is crafting and searching for new recipes. Not melee. Not magic. Just crafting. But he have to do a lot of other stuff in order to enjoy what he wants to enjoy. Because otherwise all he gets is frustration and a ton of DP, thus he forced to go some strictly predefined way - train digging, train melee, train magic, get the gear, yada yada. You still call that game a sandbox? Mkay. 

Same goes for a hunter or PvP player. He indeed could live for awhile using guild supplies. But how long that would last? "Hey you worn out that set of boss jewels our guild was struggling to collect in last half year! And you worn it fighting other like-minded jerks just because you wanted some fun? Ok, no more rare jools for you. Here, take this set of choice grade." Oops, sorry - you like PvP, but now you have to get better mats for better gear first. And there is no other way to get them, but PvE. 

Daomei (atys)
What you call "PvE rewards" are rewards for all, not for PvE players only. What you asking for are exclusive privileges for PvP players breaking the principle of Ryzom that all parts of the game are interconnected and have to cooperate.
PvP rewards are rewards for all in the same way as PvE rewards are. You don't need some VIP-access to get PvP rewards. You don't have to know a password, have a character of certain race, pay real life money or do a striptease for someone in order to get them. None of that. Oh wait. There is one requirement though. You have to do some PvP to get them. But everyone can do it as well, just like everyone can dig supreme mats or hunt bosses. Do i take it right - in your humble opinion PvE rewards are "for all" because everybody's supposed to love say camping supremes, doing nothing for hours and hours, apart from hitting same button every 9 minutes. And PvP rewards are "exclusive" because some people don't like PvP, hence the rewards are inaccessible for them. Since when personal preferences determine exclusivness?..

Following your logic, supremes are "exclusive" and inaccessible for me as i don't like to wait for them to pop. Yet i recently dug some after wasting about 8 hours to get 20 units of mat. I didn't like it at all, nobody forced me, but i had to do it. 

Everyone going along the same way whether they like it or not in so called "sandbox" game seems ok to you. Replace PvE with PvP and it becomes an "illogical and futile comparison". And people asking for more choices available to everyone are making "PvP class" as their choices don't fit yours.

*shrug*

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Tumbleweed (1 decade ago)

#34 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago [en] 

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Maybe I should give up.
Tumbleweed (atys)
PvP rewards are rewards for all in the same way as PvE rewards are. You don't need some VIP-access to get PvP rewards.
That is what I call illogical. I can give away freely my NPC armor pieces, plan snippets, and crystals to anybody. Same goes with the complete armor. Everybody may use it, in PvE, RP, PvP. Kindly give me your PvP skirt and shield, or prove that it cannot be used for PvE.

Tumbleweed (atys)
Following your logic, supremes are "exclusive" and inaccessible for me as i don't like to wait for them to pop.
That again is what I call illogical. You can receive sup by everybody who owns some, be it for dappers, friendship, or services rendered. Moreover, you may gladly do PvP protecting "your" sup digger at the supernodes. You get OP mat as a reward when serving as PvP merc during OP fights.

Again: What is asked for is that PvP players get exclusive privileges obtaining their gear by PvP solely. And they may use those objects everywhere in the game, with attributes far above what others are able to craft.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#35 Added by Jarnys 1 decade ago [en] 

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Haha Thumbleweed, you reminded me of some things I experienced in the past (and up to now) here in Ryzom - thanks for that :-)

But back to topic (more or less):

I'm one of those people who like crafting but don't really like digging and I can second that leveling with loot is hard (esp. because hunting non-agros is something not done too much - except for ploderos)
I know a lot of crafters that are happy to craft something for you if you deliver the materials, some will even take alternative mats and take some from their own stock instead to make a good item for you. (like you give armor mats and get some good jewels)
On the other hand: the prime roots can be dangerous in some areas so some harvesters might pay you with part of the mats if you protect them from harm (mobs and players)
This is mostly how it works inside guilds but it can be done across them as well.

You want the sup zun amber? You'll have to go in the roots and dig for it and maybe take some protection with you. Or you could ask you favorite harvester "want to dig sup zun next season change? I'll protect you if you give me a small share"
You want the sup yelk moss? You'll have to fight Yelkoo often enough to collect the amount needed.
Or you could ask you favorite fighters "If you get me this amount of yelk moss I can give you something I crafted in exchange"

This is the way I've got all my gear up to now... since 2004.

In some cases you might even be able to buy the items with dappers - but to be sincere I doubt this possibility regarding HQ mats.

But back to the PvP aspect:
If you hear of an OP fight you can always barter with the defenders/attackers (or both depending on your alignment) that you help them defend/attack their op for a slight contribution of some kind.
I said barter because the amount will depend on the fact if they your help or not AND how known your skills are. So it might be a set of jewels or just one single sup zun amber it all depends on your "real" fame ;-)
Same goes for protection in the PvP roots now that the servers are merged since a while it is obvious that there are more marauders (or just people from an opposing faction) that are attacking there - so the harvesters might want protection from them as well as the mobs and thus making it possible for you to get a share even while practicing your favorite thing in the game.
Yes you're depending on the harvesters to get the mats and the crafters to build something nice.
But the harvester is depending on you as well to dig the mats and the crafter on you to deliver some nice loot (plans, crystals)

I won't say that the balance is perfect just that the basic concept IS balanced even between PvP and PvE lovers...

Something that might be a good idea though would be to enable the setting of needed faction/civ points for items in the normal merchant:
the one putting it into the merchant could say "you have to either pay base + 10k dappers or base + 1 karavan point (base = what the player gets from the merchant)

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