IDEAS FOR RYZOM

Maybe I didn't express myself well enough...

Wars as in, its the main reason why people strive hard to obtain good mats in order to be able to craft gear which will aid in obtaining/protecting Outposts. Apart from this, those who PvP also use very high quality gear when they PvP.

The PvE like the Kitin Mounds you gave as an example are few.

The lack of representation argument I feel is incredibly weak, yet again I feel like your looking at this like a competition. OP wars are not regular. SN's last for a couple of hours if that (varying). PvP tagging is constant and whats more is that the rewards require a heck of a lot of PvPing.

If the Armour was not more uber, then the items should cost less in PvP points maybe. But the whole point of suggesting that was that it would possibly spur a PvP culture enabling Ryzom to thrive for the reasons I set out in my previous post.

I never made mention of Boss Hunts being ultimate. I think you confused it with the NPC Hunt :)

Elvanae --

Boss hunt and NPC hunt. Yes I did confuse them. I apologize. But even most of the NPC hunt benefit is in the crystals and plans and those need skill to use and the results are not guaranteed.

I have (in the past, pre merge) done OP battles, sometimes even on the winning side. What is this high level armor you talk of? I never had or used any. I made high level armor to protect me while hunting or digging.

I just want balance, and that includes no super-equipment incentive to do PvP vs non-PvP.

I actually agree that the current "rewards" structrure is slightly out of whack, just as the "economy" was pre merge. I just don't want to see it get out of whack in the other direction (just as the economy was/is post merge).

One last thing about good gear needed to do endgame PvE content .... :-)

With the merge and equipment wipe we had the unique opportunity to test it. And i can honestly tell you: We finished all 6 NPCs and any bosses we encountered with starter gear. Starter gear meaning that it took a few people about 3 hours of digging and crafting to make equipment for the whole guild.

Anything better is luxury. Of course we use better stuff now. But it's not required to finish that content.

This high level armor she talks of is what most guilds use their sup mats for. Every person I know well use grind gear for boss hunts. There is only one boss I can think of that really needs specific gear- and thats kinkoo where acid jewels on the tank are a massive help (even so 2 tanks in choice gear or just a dedicated healer with enchants can overcome this easily). Most people bring out their best gear for OP wars which speaks volumes- PvP is a lot harder than PvE and therefore people use better gear for it.

You don't hear anyone (or at least I havent) say "oh let me go put my PvE jewels on if we are going to PR". PvP jewels are the best jewels for a reason.

I want balance. PvP is the hardest thing in this game (you can debate this if you like- Im happy to give examples of 2masters and 2 f2ps doing q270 aggro bosses,me running naked through all PR regions and people sitting for hours waiting for a change of weather). Seeing as PvP is the hardest thing in this game why shouldn't it have its rewards?

I'm quite frankly tired of people pushing against this just because they don't PvP and they are worried it will affect their digging. Of course it wont- NPC bosses haven't affected it so why should additional PvP armor do that? They look at the number of points as an easy grind... well its not- try it for yourself if you dispute me Ill even take you into the marauder camp myself :) Kill pei 9 times and you have a great LA piece- whats hard about that?

Virg, please not again. Do the math: In case of bad luck, you kill Pei-Ruz 20 times for 20/9 boots, oops.
And "PvP jewels" are a bug exploit. I regret much that it has not been fixed with the piece of code provided by Neron. Not because I am anti PvP but because I believe the complaints of PvP participants that it kills the role of mages in PvP.

About "PvP is the hardest thing in this game" I cannot but laugh. The hardest thing probably is preparing, organizing, leading, and follow up a RP session of all parts of the community, that is damn work and exactly zero reward (be happy if not harvesting lots of critique and objections). Compared with that anything else is a catwalk.

I could name lots of other things that are "harder than PvP" and not yielding any reward (except a thankyou which is worth more than every uber gear), for example treks around the world with a group of new players. That is a burden of responsibility and may develop complexities untold.

And, beneath that. if you are a master in PvP, where is it hard to defeat somebody who is not? Tumbleweed brought up the assertion that somebody in Pei armor, with PvP jewels and 97 zun amp would always win against somebody in good dig armor and jewels and 83 amp. I, on contrary, in a case that a non PvP trained, master in ele and the afflis, with the mentioned uber gear, would stand against, say Kitane, you, Triplex, Ardaz, or others knowing the business, in the aforementioned standard gear, would bet every dapper on the PvP expert, and would win.

Therefore, PvP is only hard if you have a worthy opponent, otherwise it may even be easy or dead boring at worst. That is, and I have to hammer that into your head, what Bittty, me, and other alleged "PvP haters" are preaching: You damn need fresh blood, and for that, you have to show and demonstrate the attractivity of PvP. Creating "carrots", rewards, or worst of all, coercion, will only attract opportunists, and drive out non interested players, thus damaging the whole game. That is the only concern "PvP haters" (which, btw, I am not) hold, being concerned about balance and integrity of game mechanics.

To summarize again:
Rewards:
more offers in PvP merchant: ++
gear for PvP only: ++
gear fit for PvE too: ok, if it does not break the balance
more NPC PvE hunts: ok, but mind the workload of the devs

Better visibility of PvP gameplay ingame: +++
PvP teachers and quests on Silan: ++

What I completely oppose (not mentioned here, but in the French forums), is the annexion of further regions such as 250 surface and PR for non voluntary PvP, coerced tagging, rewards such as better foraging yield for tagging and so on.

Wow is my initial response...

If you look at what i said... i said kill pei 9 times and you have a great LA piece... PIECE not set. You do the maths.

My point about PvP jewels what that people use the best for PvP not PvE. This was to back up my point that PvP is harder and requires better gear.

I'm sorry... an RP session.. hard? Organization can be tough for some I guess but at the end of the day if you have people who want to do something it will get done.. If I want to go kill a marauder in PvP it can easily not get done- and they can end up killing me.

Treks? Oh please trekking is not difficult. If a person can solo trek a level 1 alt around atys (and yes this has been done many times) then trekking is easy- the issue you may encounter is that you don't know how to trek in which case it can be difficult. Comparing this to PvP you could be one of the best players ever and still loose to someone..

I disagree with tumbleweed. Gear provides an advantage in PvP however tatics can win out easily- I have killed players who are very good at PvP in grind jewels, grind axe and no armor whilst they had boosted gear.

The only people who regularly PvP are worthy opponents and when someone starts fighting them they tend to learn fast and become very adept themselves. I'm sorry you believe adding to rewards will damage the game? How about NPC hunts? Why do people do them week in week out? I'll tell you why... They are doing it for the rewards- yes initially for the fun but then this develops into wanting that shiny set.

I don't understand your +++ post.

Daeomi:

Before merger, Ari had a simple Roll out of 100 for NPC's like Pei and Dante for example. Regardless whether someone got 3 Boots and 2 Vests, there was always a lot of trading which would in a sense substitute for this "bad luck"

Now, a lot of people either directly use Chancey's system or else incorporate something similar whereby they attend for a number of times before they are issued with a full set.

In terms of trekking being the hardest thing, I will draw from my own experiences:
- I started to trek around Atys when I was F2P
- I have trekked many homins who have been F2P and very low level on my own
- I have also trekked a group of low level homins with the help of a F2P going from Yrk-Pyr-Zora-FH
- I have trekked around PR also, albeit it was slightly harder than ML
It had nothing to do with me being a multi-master, rather it relied on my sneaking skills and very good use of the Radar and the "safer" routes from experience. Trekking isn't the hardest activity to do once you know how, PvP still is.

Lastly, I don't think everyone who is a decent PvPer automatically turned into one... just with everything, it takes time and dedication.

There are a lot of points being brought up that have the potential to take this post way off topic (for example if PvP jewels should be allowed).

Ok, once again and first the simple topics: When I write "++" it means I am strongly in favor, and "+++" I appreciate it even more. Next: Yes you are right, after 9 successful Pei runs every team member may possess one piece of armor. Whether that is less hard or harder than a series of PvP fights may vary by the circumstances. I do not assert that the recent rewards are perfect nor were algorithm and amount of PvP points. Feel free to further utter ideas about, I already told that I am not opposed to.

As to PvP as "the hardest", again, that is nonsense. And your reasoning about treks is, too. I am not speaking about bringing a trained player from here to there, moreover not about a single player to be escorted what is always rather simple and uncomplex. Rather I speak about groups of new, unexperienced players, and a trek worth to be memorized for them, meaning adventure, showing them the beauty and complexity of the regions crossed, giving informations about geography, fauna and flora, and history. Best that was always done on our server by Chanchey, my humble attempts in this direction fell short of what he was able to present.

A trek will become even harder with players of not only low experience, but also different language backgrounds, imagine wanting to explain something, grabbing some french or spanish term you do not recall atm from an online dictionary while fending off several tyrancha, varinx, and kipucka rezing those of your team who recently fell. And you have endlessly to monitor that nobody gets lost, falls back, drags agro, loots unleashing a respawn and so on.

Different from some PvP fight you cannot simply quit or pause, because kinchers, tyranchas, and vorax will not listen to your mention of the door bell etc. while a PvP opponent probably may. And the punishment of being struck down near the marauder camp or in the PR and having to spawn (without DP) is clearly less harsh then being pushed back to the starting point (with DP) on a trek.

As to PvP needs best armor, that is rubbish. PvP takes best armor because it is there. Were there better, PvP players would take it, were there only worse, they would take that one. Any gear improvement in PvP is just arms race, it will never satisfy. That does not mean that good gear is not fun, and may open variations in combat not available otherwise, and it does not mean that I miswant you that. But kindly get real.

Dont presume to know what my treks entail. I am a very big fan of informing players during their treks. In fact, I would like to argue that it is indeed such a trek as you gave example of that is a failure of a trek, if you don't in the beginning lay down basic rules such as, don't run infront of the leader and don't loot. Otherwise, it would be wise not to take on a bigger challenge than you can handle.

As for PvP not needing the best armour, you don't help yourself with that argument. Whatever the best gear available would be, that would be what would be utilised in PvPing. Wether its better or worse than what is currently available is irrelevant.

A PvP fight is not automatically easier because you can tell the opponent that you need a 2 minute break. Its intensity is far beyond a trek, whereby, if you are trekked by someone who knows the "safer" paths, treks can actually get boring... PvP is constant, your down, your teammate is up, they have to rez you in time for you to equip amps to heal them to keep the team up etc etc.... Virg mentioned PvP which lasted for like 20minutes of players going down and getting back up and etc... far from having the best gear it all goes down to how you work with your team and utilising the correct tactics at the correct time.With a Mob, its simple, its HP goes down until it dies, there is not Invul nor MPA and the Varinx don't go round healing eachother...

Here is some simple maths for you:

1 piece of pei LA:
kills needed = 9
miniumum time taken = 9 hours of respawn time + 3 (generous) hours of killing time = 12 hours total
(Adding the probability of 1 fail (you should know these are generous odds as you yourself do pei that brings the total to 13-14 hours)

1 kami skirt/sheild:
kills needed = 125 (assuming max xp per kill which never happens fighting someone of the same level)
minimum time (assuming kills every 5 minutes) = 10.4 hours

The stats for the pei LA are easily achieved however the stats for the kami skirt are generously exaggerated. Xp is usually lower half the max effectively doubling the time to 20 hours. Winning is not 100% more like 50:50 effectively doubling the time to 40hours (I don't even need to mention the fact that even during fights kills are not every 5 minutes).

90% of the time I checked on pei I found him up. I can usually only find people to PvP about 10-20% of the time I play.


Hopefully this portrays the difficulty of getting 1 PvP piece compared to 1 pei piece.

I am sorry but i still disagree with you. Trekking new players is easy once you know how. I have done plenty of treks for new players during my time at ryzom and to be completely honest only a few times (when i was starting out) the team has wiped. Different languages brings up issues in all aspects of the game. If you have to fend off serveral tyrancha, varinx and kipucka and be rezzing dead team members then in my opinion you are not familiar with how to trek and avoid aggro.. Yes aggro doesn't pause for you but it doesn't need to if it doesn't see you or is dead before it reaches you.. Also the point with "punishment"- there is none if you simply avoid it.

PvP uses the best armor because it is the aspect of the game where people feel they should use their best armor. This is not just me- ask around at PvP wars and you will find people are wearing their best. Ask them why and the answer is simple- they dont need it during grinding skills and PvE- so they save for PvP.

With all respects I am thinking very real- I have a million and one ideas that I know will not reach the light of day however more PvP rewards I believe are deserved and would not be hard to implement.

Posted up a new Topic as this one was getting a bit long.

Hopefully see you all there :)

This thread evolved many many ideas following the initial presentation:  Some of them have been addressed in the reply to the subsequent thread posted by Virg http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/17014/1# 1.

The following three ideas have also been identified by review.

Idea 1 - Create armor with specialized looks and with reasonable stats for purchase with Civilization Faction Points.
=> Will be considered for long term implementation.

Idea 2 - Create PvP armor that can only be used for tagged PvP.
=> Will not be added because it will cause too many problems and special cases.

Idea 3 - Create Kami/Karavan missions in Silan that give temporary fame high enough to tag up for PvP and which reward PvP.
=> Will not be added because it would be too much DEV work to spend on a starting zone.

Tamarea, what about the current PvP point rewards? wll they be finished? only selling a skirt and shield :p

Check the other PvP post buc- its under a brainstorm :)