English

Daomei --

 Very well put. You are eloquent even in English. What I see as your complaints about the old economy, however, are the very things that I thought made it good.

 "You have no possibility of paying back" the gifts of the established players?  That's fine -- the gifts were gifts, after all, not exchanges for future favors.  Instead of paying it back -- pay it forward!  Be "that person" for the next newby in the line.

  The lack of things to "buy" in the bazaars?  Again, a symptom of a true trade/gift economy.  When money is worthless, nothing is sold for money. 

((An additional contribution to the lack of stuff on the market was the fact that, because of the low server populations, crafters were unwilling to put crafted items up for sale.  If you put up a good item at a reasonable (cheap) price, you want to see it sold so you know that someone is using it. If you make it for them directly you know it's going to be used.))

  All of these were symptoms of a vital, working, HIGHLY NON-TRADITIONAL economy. It was part of what made Atys different from Middle Earth or Azeroth or whatever planet it is that Guild Wars takes place on.

  Not to worry -- Dappers will be worthless again soon enough -- Atys still generates an infinite supply of raw materials.  The difference will be that newbies won't be able to afford the prices in the marketplace and they will need to take gifts in order to advance in the game.  The old economy may have been broken, but the new one is (imho) worse.

With respect

  -- Bittty

As far as paying back Master/Vet players, its very possible. All I ever wanted was help at OP wars and help with doing NPC Bandit Boss's. Even a low level Healer can be helpful at an OP battle if they really try, if nothing else they are 1 more character that has to be killed -- I did my first OP battle with a lev 40 heal skill and felt like i contributed. Certainly didn't do a lot but looked like i got just enough sap back to that high level mage so they could cast again a couple times.
Also when you get high enough level, remembering friends and inviting them to help when you find Boss's is highly valued.
I just don't see this new economy changing any of that, certainly wouldn't for me. Just too easy to get the mats for high payoff craft missions and do those missions just before logging out or just after logging on. And the good Boss Mats are still just worth way more than dappers, maybe more so now.

The new economy will put a premium on getting at least 1 craft skill to 200 so that you can take the high level craft missions. Selling mats is just not even worth the time, but saving the mats necessary to do the craft missions will save a lot of digging time. A plus is that even when grinding craft skills it prob won't be worth the time to sell the crafted items, so leveling crafts will actually be faster. The players that have the craft skills to do the high level craft missions will have to share their ability with others -- somewhere around a 25-50% cut looks about right from my experience doing the missions. For non-crafters, they will just have to either supply their looted mats to a crafter or pick up delivery or kill missions before heading out to hunt. Pure diggers could do the dig missions but I doubt many will do that repeatedly, but they sure are fun to learn and do 3 to 5 times.
A quick number to back up my feeling about selling mats -- its about 1100-1200 dappers per mat doing the high level craft missions. The New Economy is not all that bad but I don't think its what the Dev's were after.

Ok first, sorry for my english, I'm french ;)

First, I think the new economy is beter than the old. Don't forget, in the old economy, dappers are no value, On Aniro, the smallest competition was awarded several millions of dappers ...

Now, dappers are value, but for how long ?

I start with a temerar (téméraire ?) account. I take my millions for my guild, but I have already my appartement, and I don't have any problem with teleport. I have 3 mektoubs too. And I'm not the more rich in my guild.

for resume, now you can win money :

- by tribes mission (and it's good for Fame)
- by craft mission (my best LVL : 140, my best level in craft : 130, money per 2H : 70.000 dappers, I just craft shields)
- by sold my loot

Ok, but now ... I have already all I need (teleport, mektoub and appart, Guild Hall for my guild), I stop craft mission, I play tribe missions for finish my fame objective ... My play style is the same than before merge.

For me, for finish the new economy, we must :

- Delete the chip tool seller (one tool for 1000 dappers ...Ok, I have already foraging tool for my 250 ... same for my craft)
- Reduce the life of equipement (armor and weapons)
- Or create more exit for dappers

the new economy reduces the speed of creating dappers but we need more out of dappers, either by need to purchase equipment or other things.

MLy two french dappers ;)

From a low-level player's perspective, I think the new economy delivers a number of advantages. A fresh arival from Silan should have enough dapper to buy a mount, one or more replacement mounts if the first one dies, plenty of mek food, several teleports, as much player-made gear as he/she might want, and still have plenty left over. Obviously this was not the case in the old economy. Maybe this is too easy!

If the main dapper sinks for a low-level player are mek food and low-level teleports, then dappers are now worth about 10x what they were in the old economy (mek food and low-level teleports were about 10k, now they are about 1k).

Two distinct advantages to low-level players:
1. Corporal and overseer missions are now worth doing. A hunting mission that pays 2k is like getting paid 20k in the old economy. Plus you get substantial experience from the fighting (if you are low-level) and a little fame. For a new player, this should help ease the transition from the mission-driven play of Silan and the sandbox play of the mainland, which imo is a good thing.

2. Mounts are now practical for exploration and trekking, opening up many new possibilities. In the old economy, mounts were precious things (especially for a low-level player) that were not to be put into harm's way. Now that mounts can be cheaply replaced, new ways of playing become possible for the low-level player. For example, mounted solo-treks are much, much easier and faster than going on foot. I (albeit as a modestly experienced solo-trekker) was able to get all the capitols at level 40 with only one death (hint: a named gingo can kill your mount very quickly!). The old way of trekking, with a team of high-level players escorting helpless newbs, may become a thing of the past (and good riddance - that approach generally doesn't teach new players good sneaking skills, or even teach them how to get from one place to another on their own!). If a new player doesn't want to take on the challenge of finding his or her own way, then a low-level guide should be all that is needed under the new system.

Means reckless incase anyone didn't understand.

I would like to thank everyone for their comments.
First, I would like to say, My thoughts agree strongly with comments made by Bitty, Suboxide, Dinorath, Neela, Beepe, and Gaskets and maybe a couple otheres for reasons they allready stated.
Like i said from the beginning, doing the same missions over and over again for dappers is like a job. Is this really a fun game to you now? Go get a job then in RL and enjoy the fun and making real money. Spend it on a boat or something, lol. Enjoy the outdoors in RL. It has changed the game play, and i find it less enjoyable. I come here to escape RL.
As for Suboxides comments, i agree. If you dont, then what if they changed the game play to pay the Crafters pennies, while paying the hunters BIG dappers? Would you like it better? I thought so. So make the missions for crafters suck and make missions for big dappers only for hunters. Still, in my opinion, the game play would be lousy. I'm not saying the old way was better, it needed fixing, but why does everyone think a good, fun game should have an economy in the first place? There is plenty of FUN games out there that dont have economies at all! There has to be a better way.
I was hoping that Tribal missions would reward us in some other way, such as Knowledge of the Goo, or some new Technology, or a new attribute like the rites give, or something like that. I enjoy the rites, ( Not toiling for money), But that is a different thread.
As for paying 'Rent' or 'Taxes', I allready pay for this game in real dollars! I am subscribed, and for what, to play a game that makes you work to make money to be payed dappers?? Taxed twice? I dont think so, that's why i say it is like a job, and less enjoyable. So maybe i will have to go find a different game.
As for having others craft for me, No thank you, if that is the case, then why dont you just do the crafting yourself and give the money to people that need it? (Isnt that the gift economy all over again?) (Btw, others have crafted for me as i have progressed, and i was very appreciative of it, but i always intended on paying them back any way that i can) To me, when others craft for others, it wasn't for free, Guild leaders, HO's and Crafters always expected you to repay the guild some day when you can craft at a higher lvl. The goal was to make the GUILD stronger and better than the others. At least that was always the way i viewed the game. It encouraged loyalty, and for that, i am loyal to those that helped me along the way.
Finally, this 'new economy' is contrary to the game play i like to do. I like to Dig one day, Craft the next, Trek the next, do Occs the next, lvl some skill the next, Chat the next day (Stable sit), Do marauder ncp hunts the next, do boss hunts the next, play my alts in Silan the next day, meet new people the next, rez newbies the next, train my dogs the next (lol), do OP battles the next, explore Atys the next day, Mess with people in Uni chat the next, Gads! shall i go on? But now everything i do revolves around Dapper missions, basically doing only one thing. sorry but i think it stinks.

i wasn't going to read 4 pages of post so i may be repeating what others have said, but here's the bottom line as i see it, if your not a really high lvl craft/digger, you can't make dappers with missions, it prove this point, the best i've found for making dappers in zora city is around 2000ish dappers, if like me your under lvl 100 in EVERYTHING then you really are stuck, with no real way to make dappers, you want to give so few dappers for missions, then make everything in the game cost less as well, at least the npc items. this is like inflation making the price go up, but saddly the bottom is falling out of the value of the dapper, you need to be god-like to make anything, and most high lvl toons i've met gain NOTHING by helping a low level toon, so what do they have to gain from it?, cough up the dappers WG, it's a game, it's susposed to be FUN now it's more like work then fun, and i get paid at work, so pay me and i'll play hard, or make the game fun and i'll pay you.

Why would you want to buy NPC items? Crafter's are way more interesting.

I think the new economy is an improvement, but I suspect that is only temporary. I have enjoyed doing missions to regain my packers and will soon have my appartment. But after that ...? Dapper will again become meaningless and I never liked the old "gift economy". Equipment does not wear-out fast enough to be an effective sink, and if it would feel silly if it wore out any faster. TP's are not expensive enough to be a sink at the moment.

The real problem is the vast disparity between what a new player can earn and what a master can earn. No single system of currency will work for both ends of the spectrum. Perhaps the cost of tools and TP's should scale with a players total number of skill levels. A master should pay 100 times more than a refugee just arrived from Silan. Without such scaling costs only the creation of recurring costs like rent or taxes would ensure the dapper has meaning.

it's a game to start with, and it was once fun, i don't much enjoy always wondering how many hours, days, weeks, it will take me to make the dappers to buy something good, a packer, (mounts are sick cheep, but you can only have one) an apartment, ect, it'll take me a month to make those kinds of dappers now, and i sure don't want to think about how long it would take to do it with a new toon from silan, even if it had all the missions done, it would still not last long, and it's not easy to buy good items from high lvl crafters, they want a king's ransom for them. there needs to be a way to make good dappers for the low level toon, so all in favor of more dappers per lame mission say +1 lolx. let me make 10 to 50,000 for killing say 20 baddies for a mission, so the money will add up

If everyone has less dappers than before, then crafters would have to sell cheaper than before, no?
If they manage to sell for as much as before, then there has to be a way to get the dappers... If everybody is broke, then they won't have many customers and will have to lower prices... I don't understand?

It used to be good to just explore the landscape, killing and looting what mobs got in your way and selling the mats to the nearest Hawker to earn dappers for TPs etc., maybe doing the occasional digging and crafting. I played that way most of the time, with the goal of collecting all TPs (I got all but one before the Wipe). This way of playing is now impossible.

In the old economy, dappers were largely irrelevant to most players and missions that gave dappers were ignored. Now with the new economy those missions are very relevant and a player will earn more dappers for missions in the more dangerous regions. This enables players of all levels to earn dappers, however having done this for a while, the same missions over and over, it is getting boring.

Those players who do not like to play this way, e.g. explorers & hunters, now find their way of playing the game does not work. Foraged and looted Mats used to be worth gathering to sell, but prices are now so low this is pointless. The emphasis has shifted to using mats to craft armour, weapons etc. and selling those.

This means that unless you enjoy crafting you are going to struggle to earn enough dappers to pay for TPs, let alone anything else.

So for the Exploreres and Hunters among us, there needs to be a payday that fits that style of play. It needs to be available to players of all levels. The obvious existing mechanism is killing bandits. This is already used to get dappers (and fame, although I don't understand why you don't get more fame for killing higher level bandits).

If Bandits dropped armour and weapons, appropriate to their level, this would enable players of all levels to get gear to use or sell without having to dig, loot and craft. Bandits with a pistol would drop the pistol as well as their armour and jewels.

It makes sense that crafted gear is worth more than the mats used to make it.
It is good that missions for dappers are now relevant.
It does not make sense that these are the only ways to make enough dappers to play the game.

Indobi made an excellent point. For a higher lvl (in crafting) the dapper are still a minor nuisance: Easy to come buy, be a millionaire quick. It started already that I've seen higher players offering 100k for free to lower level players in- and outside of guilds.

However lower levels have to work hard. I can currently make 3 crafting missions for a total of about 50k dapper, but it takes me 3 hours to dig up the mats. Granted I may not be very good at it, but that's the way it goes. So what does someone do in lvls 20-60? It's really tough.

But the problem will solve itself: Give it another month and homins will be rich and newbiews get dappers for free again. We're going back to a time-based economy: How much time do you invest into digging/looting versus someone else to do the crafting/careplanning/protection/etc.

Since it's a very hard problem to balance out a dapper based economy I'm probably quite happy when the old status quo is reached. But I remember being a total newbie (<50) that life was hard.

Well, after almost 2 months of gameplay, I think I can change a bit the worries I expressed in other posts, at beginning of the new era.

At first, new economy appeared a bit too much mission driven, and too much oriented for crafters (tho, it's logic crafters would move economy more and better).

Now I changed my opinion and, apart of some tuning devs can do, game is much better now.

To judge it, you must forget your past years living here as a billionaire. Think as a new player.

The impression of having the game heavy misison driven is just because of the old players retaining their skills, that just needed to reach fast the dappers to buy apartments and guild halls, along with an heavy fame runs.

But, once the first wave ends, you will see that missions are not so heavy as tought before.

And when you judge missions, you have to consider the time and stuff needed to accomplish them.
In example, most armor cafting missions pay very good dappers, but you need to dig much more mats and generally you have to organize your packers.
On the other side, a jeweller seems less rewarded, but when you start doing some math, you'll soon end up doing a simple trip for jewels, just using your bag. In this way, just doing 2 cities in 2 continents and a couple of tribes, you can earn 350k dappers, already deducted by tp costs. And this is just with 400 mats, a master can dig in 10 minutes. Hunters gain less? Yes, but hunting is faster and there are tons of missions to do.

So, in general, once you got first goals, the game will be balanced and you'll not be forced to do missions forever but only when needed.

Also, now missions have a meaning, other than fame, and this is good. Also, tribes now have a meaning other than being friendly to protect you. And this is good.
I worked fo be friend of sap slaves just because their overseer have good rewards. And this is good.

For the new players, there is no MMO around where new players can earn much money, why earning 50k instead of 500k is wrong here?

As long as crafters will give correct values to their stuff, i don't see a problem for a new player.

So, at the end, I changed my mind and now i think this is the right direction.

Only thing I dislike, but it's not economy related, is the change in the food needed by your animals, now worse than before.
In my opinion, it's better to encourage the use of them around the world, for a better atmosphere, than forcing people to park them at stables (as already was in the past), and with heavy food needed, no one will move them from stables, now. But this is just something i wish to see to fill my personal taste of the world.

Regards.

I won't argue that ya can "make a living" doing overseer missions. But doing the same missions day after day after day doesn't fit my idea of entertainment. Aside fom daily diversions, I have been doing primarily dig / craft as I work to bring LA up for about a month. Right now I have a whopping 336k. I had 900+k earlier but lost a packer to a gas attack. That took out 600+k. I average abvout 1350 mats per day

I get about 39 dappie per mat selling at 250 choice. The crafted item sells for about 39.9 dapper per mat at 250QL. Seems to me the skill that I spent so much time learning oughta net some return on investment. After my tool died, i grabbed a new one and calculated the following:

128 crafts at average of 264 dapper per craft = 33.8k
Tool Depreciation of 72k x 25% = 18.0k
TP of 4k + 1k travel expense x 2 trips= 10k
Pick deterioration os 25% = 4.5k
LA / jools depreciation = Lets not count
Net income for effort = 1.3k

Seems I could earn a million doing overseer missions for the time invested.