English

Reading the contributions, many of them complaining about the new economy, I cannot but remindl my recollections from the old one. And my memories were not equally bright as others'.

There seems no contradiction about that the dapper was broke. There was an incredible amount of dappers in circulation, partially from widespread exploit of money bugs of the past, but clearly mainly from the imbalance of raw material prices.

For a newly beginning player who had strived a bit to have enough money for a packer or two, later even an apartment, it was annoying to have to fend off lots of well-meaning and helpful players who permanently tried to stuff millions into her. I took some pride in never taking a single dapper from anybody though I was nearly broke after having taken part on my initial trecks around the world. But it was not easy not to get the thrill from that spoilt by misled benevolence, and to decline without offending anybody.

Further on, it was disappointing that crafting was in vain at best and costly at worst. Crafting items from bought material meant losing money absolutely, crafting from dug oder hunted raw material relatively, compared to selling the mats directly. I know of at least one quite devoted and ambitious player who left the game in disappointment because of the shortcomings of the economic system.

While it is true that older players always were extremely generous and helpful, such a situation is in no way satisfactory for newcomers. One was always in feeling of obligation to those who provided us with really great gear, well knowing that one would never be able to give back that debt. It brought frustration and atonement when one unintentionally destroyed such stuff e.g. by selling (the grat lock feature isn't yet that old, after all).

And very seldom one had the opportunity to simply go over the markets and do some shopping, just buying some armor or weapon simply because it looked nice or interesting, just because there was not enough stuff in the traders. Crafters were used to produce on being asked for what one needed. And they usually gave it out for free, no wonder, what should they do with dappers? When I came from Silan, where a group of longtime Silan players provided really good market coverage, I was deeply disappointed about the large basars of Pyr containing quite a few things.

Yes, I also recall the bright sides, especially after having mastered some digging and crafting, becoming more and more independent and amassing some trillions of dappers. But I think that decadence, as one poster wrote, describes that situation quite correctly.

So I am not unhappy with a change in the situation. We shall see whether it will work or is already working.

Daomei, i'm glad you wrote that, since it is so close to what i experienced. Eight years ago, economy, digging and crafting where my "soap box", especially the lack of *any* cost for digging (or so low its not worth mentionning). I stopped asking and hoping for a change. Im glad it finally came. I dont know yet if the new system Will work in the long run, it probably wont be perfect, but i am vëry glad to be rid of the old system.

mmoRpg doesn't mean char builds like mine 100% fight oriented should be asking for dapper just to go rez a somebody. We have 4 skill trees atleast make all 4 of em liveable and i don't mind crafters make more then me but them making millions of dappers and me making a couple of thousand (not event 100k) in the same time is not an economy. It's telling me to move on and play other games.

This is a world where kittin are the threath and not the mats in the ground, if there are some invirimentals that want to stand up and say the oil in the ground is making the kitins strongers pls do. But as long as that's not the case kittin mats should atleast sell for a decent amount so a hunter can make enough on a hunt to pay for his teleport.

Well this game is kind of not for me anymore already unsubbed my 2nd account and chances are that I'll unsub my main aswell and go join my guildies that moved to guildwars2 already (for same and other reasons) once I get more time with work and so on. Might aswell make myself an f2p here and login now and then when i have time instead of logging in an almost full melee master with nothing to do except sitting at stables (since tping for me is to damm expencive the way it is)

Is this a goodbye to ryzom? I hope it isn't but the way they made the economy atm for me there is almost no reason to keep paying 10euro a month to do repetitive missions and the occasional outpost war or event with Suboxide.
GRATZ ON MAKING THE BEST GAME WITH A GREAT BARTER ECONOMY INTO THE WORST GAME THERE IS FOR PPL LIKE ME!!! have to congratulate all of you actually you are the reason i'm 50% more productive at work since I don't login from work anymore and my electric bill gonna be cheaper now aswell since I don't even have a

a reason to turn on my pc when I get home at 22h-23h.

Thinking about all of it maybe that's what the devs want on the new server with all the extra lag maybe they just want ppl like me gone so there is less lag?

The issue of the economy and having good equipment for sale on the vendors is really a seperate issue.

There are 2 main reasons offhand that i can think of for equipment not on markets.
First is simply the 7 days and its gone -- might seem simple enough to retrieve, log off, reput item on market but its not.
Second is that mats can make a lot of variations of equipment -- just exactly what Quality do you want for instance not to mention say color of armor, some mats are even good for multiply types of equipment.

I have no answers for those issues but that's why i typically never bothered to put much on the market.

Daomei --

 Very well put. You are eloquent even in English. What I see as your complaints about the old economy, however, are the very things that I thought made it good.

 "You have no possibility of paying back" the gifts of the established players?  That's fine -- the gifts were gifts, after all, not exchanges for future favors.  Instead of paying it back -- pay it forward!  Be "that person" for the next newby in the line.

  The lack of things to "buy" in the bazaars?  Again, a symptom of a true trade/gift economy.  When money is worthless, nothing is sold for money. 

((An additional contribution to the lack of stuff on the market was the fact that, because of the low server populations, crafters were unwilling to put crafted items up for sale.  If you put up a good item at a reasonable (cheap) price, you want to see it sold so you know that someone is using it. If you make it for them directly you know it's going to be used.))

  All of these were symptoms of a vital, working, HIGHLY NON-TRADITIONAL economy. It was part of what made Atys different from Middle Earth or Azeroth or whatever planet it is that Guild Wars takes place on.

  Not to worry -- Dappers will be worthless again soon enough -- Atys still generates an infinite supply of raw materials.  The difference will be that newbies won't be able to afford the prices in the marketplace and they will need to take gifts in order to advance in the game.  The old economy may have been broken, but the new one is (imho) worse.

With respect

  -- Bittty

As far as paying back Master/Vet players, its very possible. All I ever wanted was help at OP wars and help with doing NPC Bandit Boss's. Even a low level Healer can be helpful at an OP battle if they really try, if nothing else they are 1 more character that has to be killed -- I did my first OP battle with a lev 40 heal skill and felt like i contributed. Certainly didn't do a lot but looked like i got just enough sap back to that high level mage so they could cast again a couple times.
Also when you get high enough level, remembering friends and inviting them to help when you find Boss's is highly valued.
I just don't see this new economy changing any of that, certainly wouldn't for me. Just too easy to get the mats for high payoff craft missions and do those missions just before logging out or just after logging on. And the good Boss Mats are still just worth way more than dappers, maybe more so now.

The new economy will put a premium on getting at least 1 craft skill to 200 so that you can take the high level craft missions. Selling mats is just not even worth the time, but saving the mats necessary to do the craft missions will save a lot of digging time. A plus is that even when grinding craft skills it prob won't be worth the time to sell the crafted items, so leveling crafts will actually be faster. The players that have the craft skills to do the high level craft missions will have to share their ability with others -- somewhere around a 25-50% cut looks about right from my experience doing the missions. For non-crafters, they will just have to either supply their looted mats to a crafter or pick up delivery or kill missions before heading out to hunt. Pure diggers could do the dig missions but I doubt many will do that repeatedly, but they sure are fun to learn and do 3 to 5 times.
A quick number to back up my feeling about selling mats -- its about 1100-1200 dappers per mat doing the high level craft missions. The New Economy is not all that bad but I don't think its what the Dev's were after.

Ok first, sorry for my english, I'm french ;)

First, I think the new economy is beter than the old. Don't forget, in the old economy, dappers are no value, On Aniro, the smallest competition was awarded several millions of dappers ...

Now, dappers are value, but for how long ?

I start with a temerar (téméraire ?) account. I take my millions for my guild, but I have already my appartement, and I don't have any problem with teleport. I have 3 mektoubs too. And I'm not the more rich in my guild.

for resume, now you can win money :

- by tribes mission (and it's good for Fame)
- by craft mission (my best LVL : 140, my best level in craft : 130, money per 2H : 70.000 dappers, I just craft shields)
- by sold my loot

Ok, but now ... I have already all I need (teleport, mektoub and appart, Guild Hall for my guild), I stop craft mission, I play tribe missions for finish my fame objective ... My play style is the same than before merge.

For me, for finish the new economy, we must :

- Delete the chip tool seller (one tool for 1000 dappers ...Ok, I have already foraging tool for my 250 ... same for my craft)
- Reduce the life of equipement (armor and weapons)
- Or create more exit for dappers

the new economy reduces the speed of creating dappers but we need more out of dappers, either by need to purchase equipment or other things.

MLy two french dappers ;)

From a low-level player's perspective, I think the new economy delivers a number of advantages. A fresh arival from Silan should have enough dapper to buy a mount, one or more replacement mounts if the first one dies, plenty of mek food, several teleports, as much player-made gear as he/she might want, and still have plenty left over. Obviously this was not the case in the old economy. Maybe this is too easy!

If the main dapper sinks for a low-level player are mek food and low-level teleports, then dappers are now worth about 10x what they were in the old economy (mek food and low-level teleports were about 10k, now they are about 1k).

Two distinct advantages to low-level players:
1. Corporal and overseer missions are now worth doing. A hunting mission that pays 2k is like getting paid 20k in the old economy. Plus you get substantial experience from the fighting (if you are low-level) and a little fame. For a new player, this should help ease the transition from the mission-driven play of Silan and the sandbox play of the mainland, which imo is a good thing.

2. Mounts are now practical for exploration and trekking, opening up many new possibilities. In the old economy, mounts were precious things (especially for a low-level player) that were not to be put into harm's way. Now that mounts can be cheaply replaced, new ways of playing become possible for the low-level player. For example, mounted solo-treks are much, much easier and faster than going on foot. I (albeit as a modestly experienced solo-trekker) was able to get all the capitols at level 40 with only one death (hint: a named gingo can kill your mount very quickly!). The old way of trekking, with a team of high-level players escorting helpless newbs, may become a thing of the past (and good riddance - that approach generally doesn't teach new players good sneaking skills, or even teach them how to get from one place to another on their own!). If a new player doesn't want to take on the challenge of finding his or her own way, then a low-level guide should be all that is needed under the new system.

Means reckless incase anyone didn't understand.

I would like to thank everyone for their comments.
First, I would like to say, My thoughts agree strongly with comments made by Bitty, Suboxide, Dinorath, Neela, Beepe, and Gaskets and maybe a couple otheres for reasons they allready stated.
Like i said from the beginning, doing the same missions over and over again for dappers is like a job. Is this really a fun game to you now? Go get a job then in RL and enjoy the fun and making real money. Spend it on a boat or something, lol. Enjoy the outdoors in RL. It has changed the game play, and i find it less enjoyable. I come here to escape RL.
As for Suboxides comments, i agree. If you dont, then what if they changed the game play to pay the Crafters pennies, while paying the hunters BIG dappers? Would you like it better? I thought so. So make the missions for crafters suck and make missions for big dappers only for hunters. Still, in my opinion, the game play would be lousy. I'm not saying the old way was better, it needed fixing, but why does everyone think a good, fun game should have an economy in the first place? There is plenty of FUN games out there that dont have economies at all! There has to be a better way.
I was hoping that Tribal missions would reward us in some other way, such as Knowledge of the Goo, or some new Technology, or a new attribute like the rites give, or something like that. I enjoy the rites, ( Not toiling for money), But that is a different thread.
As for paying 'Rent' or 'Taxes', I allready pay for this game in real dollars! I am subscribed, and for what, to play a game that makes you work to make money to be payed dappers?? Taxed twice? I dont think so, that's why i say it is like a job, and less enjoyable. So maybe i will have to go find a different game.
As for having others craft for me, No thank you, if that is the case, then why dont you just do the crafting yourself and give the money to people that need it? (Isnt that the gift economy all over again?) (Btw, others have crafted for me as i have progressed, and i was very appreciative of it, but i always intended on paying them back any way that i can) To me, when others craft for others, it wasn't for free, Guild leaders, HO's and Crafters always expected you to repay the guild some day when you can craft at a higher lvl. The goal was to make the GUILD stronger and better than the others. At least that was always the way i viewed the game. It encouraged loyalty, and for that, i am loyal to those that helped me along the way.
Finally, this 'new economy' is contrary to the game play i like to do. I like to Dig one day, Craft the next, Trek the next, do Occs the next, lvl some skill the next, Chat the next day (Stable sit), Do marauder ncp hunts the next, do boss hunts the next, play my alts in Silan the next day, meet new people the next, rez newbies the next, train my dogs the next (lol), do OP battles the next, explore Atys the next day, Mess with people in Uni chat the next, Gads! shall i go on? But now everything i do revolves around Dapper missions, basically doing only one thing. sorry but i think it stinks.

i wasn't going to read 4 pages of post so i may be repeating what others have said, but here's the bottom line as i see it, if your not a really high lvl craft/digger, you can't make dappers with missions, it prove this point, the best i've found for making dappers in zora city is around 2000ish dappers, if like me your under lvl 100 in EVERYTHING then you really are stuck, with no real way to make dappers, you want to give so few dappers for missions, then make everything in the game cost less as well, at least the npc items. this is like inflation making the price go up, but saddly the bottom is falling out of the value of the dapper, you need to be god-like to make anything, and most high lvl toons i've met gain NOTHING by helping a low level toon, so what do they have to gain from it?, cough up the dappers WG, it's a game, it's susposed to be FUN now it's more like work then fun, and i get paid at work, so pay me and i'll play hard, or make the game fun and i'll pay you.