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#18 Added by Daomei 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Tgmage
P.S. I have not subbed yet because I dont really want to pay commercial prices for a niche game. Make it ~$50/year and then well talk but >$100 isnt appropriate for this. :(

Well, if you lack the money, I am not in the position to criticize you for. As a matter of fact, Ryzom is a good deal cheaper than other games, at least here in Europe. I am paying for 2 subs what I would have to pay for a single one in certain mainstream games.

And as to "niche game" vs "commercial" ones, I am regularly paying more for niche products, services, and applications than for mass products. This is true for clothes, furniture, and often even music where a hand-made CD covering barely more than production cost is more expensive than mainstream stuff ordered over Amazon.

I do not know any game matching the game idea, the atmosphere, or the hand-woven events I enjoy in Ryzom. And though I am not blind for the drawbacks and problems here, I would not want to exchange it for any of the technichally more perfect and better funded games. Your mileage may vary.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#19 Added by Tgmage 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Daomei (Leanon)
Tgmage
P.S. I have not subbed yet because I dont really want to pay commercial prices for a niche game. Make it ~$50/year and then well talk but >$100 isnt appropriate for this. :(

Well, if you lack the money, I am not in the position to criticize you for. As a matter of fact, Ryzom is a good deal cheaper than other games, at least here in Europe. I am paying for 2 subs what I would have to pay for a single one in certain mainstream games.

And as to "niche game" vs "commercial" ones, I am regularly paying more for niche products, services, and applications than for mass products. This is true for clothes, furniture, and often even music where a hand-made CD covering barely more than production cost is more expensive than mainstream stuff ordered over Amazon.

I do not know any game matching the game idea, the atmosphere, or the hand-woven events I enjoy in Ryzom. And though I am not blind for the drawbacks and problems here, I would not want to exchange it for any of the technichally more perfect and better funded games. Your mileage may vary.


Well the difference between those games and this one is clearly support. I could give Ryzom $100 today and it could be shut off tomorrow or simply stop working. If I pay and then I get a black screen, who's to help me? Who will fix my problem? What kind of service do I actually get for my money? None of these things are made clear. The direction of the game is not clear. The road-map of the game is not clear. What new content is coming? Why should I stick around? All of these things one takes into consideration when one pays for a product. Any product. The value of these things is of course relative.

The biggest thing that concerns me so far about this game is that there doesn't seem to be any point to it.

Whats the point of doing all this work on a toon and building it up? Whats it for? There are no instances. There are no tournaments. There is no competition as there is no way for me to see how I stack up against another player. There is nothing that I can see that I'm shooting for. There is no overall user level (which I'm slowly coming to terms with). There is no colored gear. Its very difficult here to get any kind of sense of progress or those moments when you find that rare item and its awesome cause your toon is a little bit better (again) for that end game content.

I like to strive for something but there doesn't seem to be anything to strive for here and thats causing me some hesitation.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining I'm simply sharing my thoughts. I _want_ to love this game. I'm just trying to figure out how.

-tg

Last edited by Tgwaste (1 decade ago)

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Tgwaste

#20 Added by Xemmy 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Tgmage
Whats the point of doing all this work on a toon and building it up? Whats it for? There are no instances. There are no tournaments. There is no competition as there is no way for me to see how I stack up against another player. There is nothing that I can see that I'm shooting for. There is no overall user level (which I'm slowly coming to terms with). There is no colored gear. Its very difficult here to get any kind of sense of progress or those moments when you find that rare item and its awesome cause your toon is a little bit better (again) for that end game content.

Interestingly, this list encompasses 50% of the reasons of why I did subscribe. There is also an active events team and great community.

I can choose my own goals. Sure, there are concrete ones like gaining levels. But saying "I want to fight against the Goo" or "I want to help refugees" are ultimately more satisfying to me than having some numbers to look at on a character sheet.

A player could have non-numerical based achievements in a more mainstream game, but they are often looked up with derision from the other players. Additionally, the game usually does not help facilitate them.

I like the world having purpose rather than bypassing zones because I've "outleveled them."

I enjoy the experience of the game, rather than racing and grinding to some end which never actually comes.

#21 Added by Bitttymacod 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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And the previous two posts demonstrate that there are all kinds of people in the world.

My view of things is closer to Xemmy's. I'm here for the environment, the beauty of the world, the ability to find new things that one hasn't explored yet, even after more than 3.5 years in this toon. (On the surface, in a medium level region. No, I'm not going to tell you what it was.)

Tgmage, Ben Franklin was once asked what the purpose of one of his inventions was. He replied, "What is the use of a new-born child?" The same is true of Ryzom/Atys. Your goals are what you make them. What you become is what you do, not measured by the game, but by the community.

In addition, you have made several mis-statements: While there is no overall user level, you can compare your level to others in a similar field and contest with them in duels, or even have team combats in the Arena or in the PvP areas. If you want to hold a tournament -- feel free. It has been done in the past to the great enjoyment of those who participated. There most certainly IS colored gear -- I like blue myself.

As for progress, turning 125 in elemental casting and getting the racial spells, getting one branch of armor craft to 240 so that you can make q250 armor (weapons), the first time you make it through the Trench of Trials solo, those and many others give a sense of accomplishment.

End-game content? Well, there is managing to take down one of the Boss NPC's. It's not easy and you can't do it solo. Even in other games, end-game content is never end-game. It's just end-game until the developers bring out the next release (for which you must pay large $$) with the New (End-for-now) Content.

Ryzom is unique in allowing F2P to a deep level. You don't have to buy a year at a time. I pay quarterly, and at that rate it's $10/month. If it goes dark, you've lost less than you would pay for the base version of other games before you add on the monthly charge. I would also point out that the devs have recently released content that was *suggested by the players*, not part of some scheme on their part.

The bottom line is that if you don't like the game enough to pay for it, don't. Hang out, try the mainland, get your toon to 125. If you still don't "get" it, then Ryzom is not for you. It's not a character flaw, it's just your character.

-- Bittty

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#22 Added by Tgmage 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Bitttymacod
And the previous two posts demonstrate that there are all kinds of people in the world.

My view of things is closer to Xemmy's. I'm here for the environment, the beauty of the world, the ability to find new things that one hasn't explored yet, even after more than 3.5 years in this toon. (On the surface, in a medium level region. No, I'm not going to tell you what it was.)

Tgmage, Ben Franklin was once asked what the purpose of one of his inventions was. He replied, "What is the use of a new-born child?" The same is true of Ryzom/Atys. Your goals are what you make them. What you become is what you do, not measured by the game, but by the community.

He also wrote parts of the declaration one part was "We do hold these truths to be self evident" which was just as nonsensical as the above statement. A new born child has enormous potential use and a truth is never self-evident, it must be reasoned to.

Bitttymacod
In addition, you have made several mis-statements: While there is no overall user level, you can compare your level to others in a similar field and contest with them in duels, or even have team combats in the Arena or in the PvP areas.

I made no mis-statement. You mis interpreted. Actually I dont think this is the case at all. I think you knew exactly what I meant.
Bitttymacod
If you want to hold a tournament -- feel free. It has been done in the past to the great enjoyment of those who participated. There most certainly IS colored gear -- I like blue myself.

Again.. you know exactly what I meant.
Bitttymacod
As for progress, turning 125 in elemental casting and getting the racial spells, getting one branch of armor craft to 240 so that you can make q250 armor (weapons), the first time you make it through the Trench of Trials solo, those and many others give a sense of accomplishment.

This sounds interesting. I look forward to it.
Bitttymacod
End-game content? Well, there is managing to take down one of the Boss NPC's. It's not easy and you can't do it solo. Even in other games, end-game content is never end-game. It's just end-game until the developers bring out the next release (for which you must pay large $$) with the New (End-for-now) Content.

You're misusing the term end-game content but again, you know what I mean. This is just hair splitting.
Bitttymacod
Ryzom is unique in allowing F2P to a deep level. You don't have to buy a year at a time. I pay quarterly, and at that rate it's $10/month. If it goes dark, you've lost less than you would pay for the base version of other games before you add on the monthly charge. I would also point out that the devs have recently released content that was *suggested by the players*, not part of some scheme on their part.

There always seems to be an excuse for every question and point I have. Instead of 'Ya, maybe this game could be better than it is'. Its 'Well thats just how it is'. I have a hard time with that.
Bitttymacod
The bottom line is that if you don't like the game enough to pay for it, don't. Hang out, try the mainland, get your toon to 125. If you still don't "get" it, then Ryzom is not for you. It's not a character flaw, it's just your character.

Im glad my character has been approved... I guess.

Last edited by Tgmage (1 decade ago)

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Tgwaste

#23 Added by Jola 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Played WoW for 3 yrs... was bored to tears the last year. Played Ryzom for 3 yrs (so far)... still engaged. In fact so engaged, I really would rather spend my precious time working on my Ryzom goals than debating the merits of these games.

#24 Added by Tgmage 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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I think people are taking my comments as insults to the game and thus they are trying to defend something they love.

I'm not trying to insult the game. If I were I just wouldn't play. I'm trying to understand it.

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Tgwaste

#25 Added by Dominikus 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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It hardly seems like you are trying to understand if you disregard what other players say, calling it "hair splitting". It's not called hair splitting if he's pointing out obvious flaws in your argumentation. And while we are at the "misinterpreting", you didn't get the Ben Franklin quotation. Yes, a new-born has _potential_. And that potential is exactly what Bittty was talking about. It is up to *you* to find the challenges and satisfaction you seek. If it's truly too much to ask to organize a tournament on your own, instead of relying on the game developers to do it for you, then yes, you are expecting too much from this game. But it is also why other players love it so much: Because it depends on them where the game goes, where the story leads and what we experience.

Nobody is (or should be) trying to defend the game, because let's be honest: Who cares if some player doesn't like the game and moves on? Very few. Instead, it has been tried to *explain* to you why Ryzom works for them. Explain, not justify. If you don't want to pay, don't. If you don't want to play, don't. If you don't trust that the game will be around in a year, yes, that is justifiable, but again, the rest of us will just enjoy that year as much as they can instead of wasting their time worrying. It doesn't cost much (relative to the income in most countries), and if the money does mean a lot to you, maybe it should be invested in something more worthwhile, anyway.

You are mentioning the lack of PvP, of competition, but have you really been around long enough to experience OP wars, Kami/Karavan disputes or the upcoming Marauders? There is, in fact, despite fear of conflict, enough PvP around to justify crafting special PvP gear, that serves little purpose, and has too much value for, plain levelling.

Competition can be a lot more subtle than a simple scoreboard, telling you who has the highest level and the most hit points. You can compete in fighting, in crafting, in knowing lore, geography, in helping people, in running the most successful guild or being the most hated or loved person.

And to answer one of your questions: "Whats the point of doing all this work on a toon and building it up" – There is no point whatsoever, just as there is no point in playing any other game, other than having fun. You're not creating anything worthwhile, you're not changing the world for better or worse, you're not curing a disease or inventing a time machine. You're just spending your time having fun. And if Ryzom isn't fun to you, you will have to look for something else.

A game cannot be for everyone, and it won't be changed for someone. There are _a lot_ of things that could be improved in Ryzom, but turning it into WoW is not one of them.

And to address valid point(s) like the lack of support: Yes, there is lack of support, there are bugs and long patch cycles, but some people care about that, some don't. The latter are willing to pay. It's about your priorities. I pay so the team can cover the costs, and I pay so I can keep playing the game. I don't expect more, you might.

tl;dr: Most are having fun, you might not, not everyone wants to play the same game.

P.S.: I am sorry for the incoherence of the reply, I wrote it down the way it flew through my head. At 4:30 in the morning.

#26 Added by Utai 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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+1 Dominikus

After 5 years at LOTRO - I returned to Ryzom and totally enjoy finding my own way

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#27 Added by Ulykus 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Tgmage
... The biggest thing that concerns me so far about this game is that there doesn't seem to be any point to it.

Whats the point of doing all this work on a toon and building it up? Whats it for? There are no instances. There are no tournaments. There is no competition as there is no way for me to see how I stack up against another player. There is nothing that I can see that I'm shooting for. There is no overall user level (which I'm slowly coming to terms with). There is no colored gear. Its very difficult here to get any kind of sense of progress or those moments when you find that rare item and its awesome cause your toon is a little bit better (again) for that end game content.

I like to strive for something but there doesn't seem to be anything to strive for here and thats causing me some hesitation. ...

Just a few examples on what people do as end-game content, what they strive for, as an explanation.

Ryzom is a sandbox mmo, and that means you have to pick your own goals (it doesn't mean there are no goals worthwhile, it's just designed in a way that you can pick what you want to do and still not be in a vast disadvantage).

1. Good gear (starting with this because you mentioned it and this is useful for any other goals)

In Ryzom this is an effort in many layers. We think about what we want gear for. Then we design a receipe to match the purpose(s). Then we go and try to find those boss mobs, find a team to kill them, and hopefully get those bodyparts we want. And/or go to dig in prime roots. After we got all the materials required we need a crafter to make the gear. There is another level of even better gear that can only be created by chance (we need LOTS of raw materials to make these).

2. Hunting

Hunting is so much fun on itself. Of course there are some established tactics but in the end it comes down to improvising your way through a boss fight. Ryzom offers a good variety of different means to do so, vastly changing the tactics that can be used to kill that boss. Hunting comes in various forms too: hunting for nameds in a team, hunting for bosses in a team, scouting boss places to find some alone. Hunting gets a lot better with better gear (1).

3. Digging

Surface digging is appreciated by those who want to do something that does not fully occupy your mind. You can get large amounts of materials to become a good crafter and supply average/good gear to your friends and/or (sell to) strangers. Prime roots digging is a completely different activity, it's more about staying alive in a most hostile environment, waiting for the right moment to run somewhere and dig the most precious resources there. PR digging is sometimes done in teams (few diggers and lots of guards).

4. PvP

It's always something very exciting to directly compare to other players. This requires a lot of player skill and equipment (1,2,3). Goals in PvP can be pure fun and/or owning outposts. I agree there could be more pvp in ryzom.

5. Trekking/Sightseeing

I think that's a very wothwhile activity too (some disagree). Learning how to walk the lands and survive, how to handle large groups of people, finding and showing nice places to others.

6. NPC boss hunts

Teams of 25...40 people frequently gather to kill npc bosses (marauders). Some hunting groups have tactics similar to those you applied in other game's instances. Some don't (and need more people). Personally i don't like this one, but i know many who enjoy it very much.

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You might think now 'oh yeah, nice activities, but no goal, as i said!'. But is doing an instance 200 times waiting for the random uber drop a goal? The goal is never to get all those drops so you can move on to your next toon, because there is nothing left your main would want. The journey is the reward.

Oh... and teamwork. Very important in ryzom, teamwork is not limited to teams! For example: if you want to make good gear, you want both digged and quartered materials to make them. And a trustworthy crafter to make it. And it's (almost) impossible to grind up all those skills yourself. You will need other people to rely on - and other people relying on you.

Roleplaying on the different levels of roleplaying perfection is also big fun for many players. Trying to find a role that fits into (or collides with?) the society you live in, giving your character some personality different from your own, seeing where the game carries your character.

Sorry for not being well organised on this topic, there are so many worthwhile activities i like in ryzom.

#28 Added by Dainan 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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An update (mostly for the benefit of other people considering Ryzom - not so much for the existing playerbase): 

I fell for the politics possibility about a week or two ago and decided to subscribe. Should have done my homework first (and by homework, I mean a lot of searching around archaic forums for information on the concept, since it's not readily available elsewhere and/or the information that can be found is a bit out of date), since it turns out I'd have to dump my guild in order to participate or be forced to choose a religious side in the game (you call 'em factions, I call 'em religions - potato, potahto), neither of which appeals to me.

But I decided to give it a go anyway. I probably won't be doing it again after my Ulitmate Game Card points are all spent. Here's why:

* THERE IS A VOCAL MINORITY ON THIS GAME THAT ACTIVELY ATTEMPTS TO QUASH ALL CHANGE. No joke. There are actually people here that vote against ideas just because they would change their game world. Standing up to 'em just gets more grief. Why would I want to pay for that?

* THERE'S NOTHING MEANINGFUL TO DO IN BETWEEN SILAN AND THE HIGHER-LEVEL AREAS. Just about everything Ulykus mentions is part-and-parcel with everyday gaming on just about ANY game. Good gear? You're gonna need that wherever. Hunting? How else is one gonna gain fighting experience? Digging? Boring once one learns there's little (if any) difference between one Choice piece of Sha from one area and a Choice piece from another, and especially dull once ultimate recipes are discovered and stored. I mean, really, when's the last time anything changed on that front?

PvP doesn't happen anywhere near enough to be entertaining (and when it does happen, it's between long-time players that have managed to gain several masteries - booooooooooring), Boss hunts are pretty much the same thing as regular hunting with the numbers increased, leaving only trekking as the game's more enjoyable pasttime - and that ends pretty quickly, because it's not terribly difficult to join a sightseeing tour and look at these areas. Nothing changes, so there's no point to repeat journeys except for more mindless grinding.

* THE GAME IS PLAGUED BY STRANGE MECHANICS: I can double-click on my Range Fight stanza and go full-auto, but I can't do the same for my spells. I can only practice the Water Carrier occupation once every 20 freakin' hours. Finding a safe sniper spot for solo leveling is a wash because half the time, you don't even get the experience points for it. The few non-filler quests there are have strange bugs and/or instructions so vague that a walkthrough is *required* in some cases. (Fyros Story 2 is an excellent example. The Daggers quest in AA is another.) Suggest any of these to be fixed, though, and you get the Change Gestapo up your butt. 

It's VERY frustrating. Not worth paying money for at all, in my view. So what I want to know is this:

Are there good explanations for any of this, or am I just going to be told to shut the hell up and deal with it like everyone else that dares to suggest something needs to be changed or fixed with this game?

Because I'll tell ya right now - if it's the latter, this time I'm firing back. I've been rather nice about some of the attitude I've received while playing this game. I won't be this time. So if you're wanting to discuss this issue with me, I'd strongly suggest keeping it to the game itself and not attacking the messenger.

This time, the messenger's swingin' back. Don't force me to do that. Discuss the concerns civilly or step off.

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"What doesn't kill me gives me XP. :-p" -Sherkalyn

#29 Added by Dainan 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Tgmage
I think people are taking my comments as insults to the game and thus they are trying to defend something they love.

I'm not trying to insult the game. If I were I just wouldn't play. I'm trying to understand it.

My advice would be not to bother, buddy. Criticism of this game apparently is A) not welcome at all and B) taken WAY too much to heart by a vocal minority that prefers we newer players just sit down, shut up, pay money and never have any ideas, request any changes or raise any concerns about ANYTHING involving this game.

Kinda sucks, but I guess that's the way Winch Gate wants it.

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"What doesn't kill me gives me XP. :-p" -Sherkalyn

#30 Added by Dominikus 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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So Dainan, when will your points all be spent? Just marking the sad day we won't see you again with this account.

Oh, and: Threatening us? Yeah, _that's_ going to get you a well-mannered discussion.

#31 Added by Dainan 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Dominikus
So Dainan, when will your points all be spent? Just marking the sad day we won't see you again with this account.

Oh, and: Threatening us? Yeah, _that's_ going to get you a well-mannered discussion.

Well, that didn't take long, did it? Lemme guess - just couldn't be bothered to even ATTEMPT to formulate a response to the concerns noted? Just couldn't WAIT to attack the messenger?

Why on earth would I expect a civil discussion out of someone so willing to fire first, ask questions never?

Oh, and you're so delicate that you feel a declaration of self-defense is a THREAT?! Ha! Maybe I'll just stick around for the sake of skating the line of law and making your life miserable. Since, y'know, it's apparently THAT easy.

We gonna do this all day, or do you want to try tackling the concerns noted?

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"What doesn't kill me gives me XP. :-p" -Sherkalyn

#32 Added by Dominikus 1 decade ago Report | Quote[en] 

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Nah, I just cannot be arsed, because I do not care about you. And why would I? You are the kind of personality that considers wasting money to piss off people. Stick around all you want, cry all you want, expect things to change because you want them to, I'll just stand here and actually have fun for the money I pay.

P.S.: Try to understand what a messenger is before calling yourself one. Moving on just seems to be too hard for you. You seriously think that people care about your concerns or that if you keep on bitching long enough, that things will magically change, that everyone will change their minds, that the bullies will disappear and that the game company will suddenly have enough funds and motivation to give the game a major overhaul. Try some realism for once.
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