IDEAS FOR RYZOM

Harvesting these few months has left me with two impressions concerning Choice and above materials and their restrictions on usage. My only issue with this is the current system - the only diffference being between CM and above a matter of different colors and (except for PR mats) restrictions to use only in the making of racial weapons.

To this end, I propose two following changes:

* REMOVE THE MATERIALS USAGE RESTRICTIONS UNLESS A COMPLELLING ARGUMENT CAN BE MADE FOR THE CURRENT SYSTEM. African cotton and American cotton, to give a real-world example, have little in the way of an argument concerning why one blend should be used over another, when both have the same basic applications with no noticeable advantage on the part of either type of cotton. I believe this should be done with similar items in-game, such as the difference between two varieties of materials seems to be merely cosmetic only.

Which brings me to my second point - which I will address immediately following up this post. -DT'K

If Choice materials could be used in any racial plan, then there would be do drive to master dig skills in other lands because I could just used my jungle materials to make any gear I wanted.

* GIVE CHOICE AND ABOVE MATERIALS CERTAIN SUBTLE MATERIAL BONUES WHEN MIXKED and MATCHED IN CRAFTING. Nothing crazy, mind you - Desert Becker Bark could, for example, have a point or two higher in causing damage as an ammo bullet, while Choice Becker Bark could sacrifie a little Damage ranking in exchange for, say, having a slighty higher speed or range bonus.

The crafing system is great, but with KipeeCraft I tend to make short work of finding ultimate crafting recipes due largely, I believe, because of limited parameters and, for lack of a better term, a somewhat half-heared approach to maintaining and improving one of this game's most interesting and unique features.

Anyway, that's my unsolicited two cents. Would love feedback on the ideas, or a point into the general direction of any previous posts discussing the topic that I may have missed. Thanks in advance! ;-)

-Dainan T'Kalian
Pyr, Imperial Dunes, Burning Desert Zone

I think this thread belongs in the "Ideas for Ryzom" section not in support.

Atys is a magical planet. Each area has its own special properties. Mobs and homins who lived in a given environment since ancient times acquire a small amount of differences that stay with them even when they migrate to other lands. After migrating mobs can pick up natural impurities from the land the live in, This makes the materials slightly different , tho not in an easily discernible way. The race crafting plans are designed with these impurities in mind and you can only succeed with these plans with the proper materials.

A vailid point if said matierals offered no unique bonuses based on where they would be found, but perhaps by offering slight stat differences based on the different types of environmental origins of Choice and above matierals, perhaps crafting and harvesting can offer suble little nuances that crafters/harvesters can strive to discover in the quest to be the best weapons/armor crafter in all of Atys. (Which, I have to admit, it likely what I'm leaning toward as a vocation personally.)

I have to wonder if there are any unseen obstacles that must be overcome in the process, though, so if anyone's got an add-on or concern they see, feel free to post it.

I am married and therefore an expert at properly receiving criticism. XD - DT'K

You're right. I thought I was in the ideas section, but apparently clicked the wrong link. How can I move it to the proper forum?

This is already the case, Excellent + Fine + Basic in a basic amp plan yields an 83% amp.

One amp recipe uses supreme + choice + choice in a high quality amp for a 96% amp but the same thing can be accomplished with supreme + fine + excellent mats.

Another requires four kinds of supreme + excellent&choice + excellent to make a 96/100 amp.

That's like a child would say "Math homeworks are too easy; my math PhD dad can solve them in seconds and tell me results." Imagine doing it w/o KC. But KC isn't where problem is. For every static system there will eventually either tool be made or result matrix found through trial and error. After all precraft window itself is half the "cheat". As long as there are finite number of possible combinations they will be discovered and ranked. Sure, maybe it'll take KC 2.0 10, 500 minutes more but it's not like you need to watch it juggle numbers. Then when a recipe is found you File/Save. There, done. For ever and ever. Plus, you can't get rid of information exchange. That recipe you found *will* make its way into other crafters' books. Urge to brag is part of human nature. Sure, select few will keep their jewels close to their chests, most will display them in full glory.
I believe Dainan ment mixing land not grade.
What would make suggested slight variations in civilizations' items more appealing than just current cosmetics? Even in a theoretically balanced PvP fight point or two in cold resistance won't make a difference. If it's high they'll acid/fire/... you anyway. For everyday's usage the point is even more moot ... no pun intended. You don't spend days gathering mats so your favorite crafter would come up with an awesome sword. Chances are they've done it already and after first item it becomes mass production. Nothing really interesting in that unless you're either of the marketing or economics species. You throw together something decent and replace it in 20 levels.
One approach would be to introduce significant differences in racial items of same type. But then you would have to do *massive* relocation of mobs so for instance Trykers simply don't fight messabs until they venture into say Desert. Sort of like plants are done. Then you design items around local fauna and flora, preferably in inverse manner; local items being inferior. As much as this makes no sense it would promote inter-racial exchange and interacition which to me far outweights nonsensical basis.Yes, and results are surprisingly equal :)

Finite-resultset problem spans far wider than just crafting. A Stinga will throw cold and root at you the first and seven billionth time. It gets boring far quicker than playing with recipes too. The only solution to this is random. Look at raw material source behavior; depending on mode it reacts within set of parameters with added randomness. Now imagine crafting behaving in the same way. Voila, still not infinite set as you are dealing with integers but still, order of magnitute larger and then KC suddenly needs to work with statistics and chances intead of algebra. Apply same mechanics to mobs.

But oddly enough you know what the result would be? Playerbase going mad on forums. For some inexplicable reason majority prefer comfort of grind while at the same time lamenting about boredom. Based on market surveys around 5 months into the game and then leaving couple of months later. Argument passed around often includes "if I wanted RL complexity I would, well live RL". So RPG developers, being professionals first, design them as they do. Look down the RPG history lane, every significant detour from the norm was met with failure. It's not them, it's us.

I probably wasn't too clear last night for some reason or another (ended up passing out around 8pm and didn't wake until 9am - strange) so let me offer an example of what I'm talking about:

Let's say I have two varieties of the same Choice materials - Shu fiber from the Lakes, and Shu fiber from the Desert.

From what I understand, their statistical qualities are dead-on equal. There is no difference between the two samples' statistical strengths and weaknesses; only difference's in which race's crafting plans can use the fibers. (Tryker for the former, Fyros for the latter).

If that's the case, I'd argue it's little more than a basic application of the concept. Shu fiber is Shu fiber is Shu fiber. Where it's harvested should have little, if any, bearing on its usage in a crafting plan. Otherwise, it's as if I'm being told that Desert Shu is so radically different from Lakes Shu that neither Fyrosian nor Trykerite craftsmen are capable of using anything other than material from their own lands in order to make their own weapons.

If RL manufacturing were like this, the world would likely not find itself as advanced as it is. America, for example, is a very poor source of diamonds necessary for worldwide jewelry and industrial applications, but we still make diamond-tip saw blades using material from other countries - in this case, we usually use African diamonds.

However, we don't assemble those saws using an African Diamond-Tip Saw Blade crafting plan. We use our own "crafting plan", or manufacturing blueprints, and simply make use of the foreign materials.

Now, if the African diamonds were so wholly incompatible with our own manufacturing blueprints that we could not use them, I'd have a better understanding of why Lakes Shu fiber cannot be used in a Fyrosian crafting plan, but diamonds are diamonds no matter where they're from.

Since Shu fiber (and other materials) remain Shu fiber no matter where they're dug, I don't understand why fiber from the Lakes can't be incorporated into a Fyrosian (or Matisian, or Zoraii) crafting plan as well.

As to the slight bonus-consequence aspect of the suggestion:

Say I use Choice Lakes Shu fiber as the handle for the sword I want to craft using a Fyrosian weapons plan. Maybe instead of giving the expected Sap Load bonus, it actually HARMS the Sap Load bonus in exchange for, say, a bonus to Durability or Adversary Dodge Modifier.

I understand that it would probably shake the status quo and possibly upset one or two players that might like things just the way they are, and that's fine. I didn't write this with the intention of offending anyone's sensibilities. I'm just writing this because I see massive potential in the harvesting/crafting aspect of this game that simply hasn't been realized yet, and was wondering if either this suggestion might help, or if there were other suggestions like this before it where a conversation has already taken place and a decision reached (which I would LOVE to read if that exists).

The main argument was already given. I see no way this proposal could be accepted personally.

You lose drive for working on other digs if you can use one regions' mats for everything. Of course that is what the prime roots are for too. The thing with the prime roots though is that it is more of a challenge and you work to get those universal mats. Digging through weather and aggro to get it. There's no challenge if you can get that in other regions such as Void which is extremely safe digging.

The only reason I mastered all five digs is so I could craft all the different racial armors for what would be preferred. I do love digging but I doubt I would have started a new dig if I could use the mats for everywhere safely.

It doesn't matter how it is in real life. There needs to be drive to dig in other regions.

Ran out of room....Responding to your second idea in another post...

On your second note mixing different grades of mats already does affect the end product in crafting. By mixing and matching them you gain different stats for the end product. Sometimes it is necessary to use fine mats to get a higher damage or range or whatever it may be. Using all supreme mats does not always give the best gear.

The stats of mats are higher as you increase the grade of mat. And they sometimes even harm a certain stat.

I've never used KipeeCraft and never plan on it. I know people that use 10 different recipes for the same weapon and there are even more different recipes depending on what you want the stats to be.

I'd be one unhappy camper if all the work I've done went down the drain and I had to find new recipes and have leveled all those dig skills just for people to get the easy way out. I'm sure quite a few crafters and diggers would agree with me on that.

Either I'm not explaining myself very well, or I'm being told no one responding likes the concept of anything ever changing in this game. Let's try this in a Q&A format, then:

Q 1: Is there any fundamental difference between Choice and above materials from one non-Prime Roots zone and the same materials from other zones?

A 1: No, there isn't. All statistical figures are the same for any given grade of material no matter what zone it comes from. An Excellent-grade piece of equipment made with Fyrosian Choice-and-above materials has the EXACT SAME stats as the same equipment made with the same corresponding materials from other zones.

Q 2: Then what's the point of learning different races' crafting patterns?

A 2: None unless you're the type that enjoys mindless grinding for skill points.

Look, if the only reason against change is to maintain the status quo (that, I would like to remind people, is NOT increasing your playerbase any) then please don't weigh in on this topic. (continued)

(from previous)

I get that there's a small core of players that have played Ryzom for quite some time and through all of its economic troubles. I get that. I think it's great. But from a new player's standpoint, there's about a month or so's worth of entertainment here once crafting is taken out of the equation, and even THEN there's a finite limit because there's so few items that can be harvested without killing mobs, and those mobs aren't getting harvested by anyone MY size anytime soon. So I'm relegated to digging, and I've already gone through as much digging as I'd like to knowing that I can't use the mats I get for anything other than Fyros stuff.

Sorry, gang, but the game's simply not interesting enough from a crafting standpoint to sit there and learn all the different races' crafting patterns, and even if I did - what's the point? I'm still digging the same mats to get the same stuff. There's no unique reward for a Fyros learning Matis or Tryker or Zoraii patterns...(continued)

(from previous) ...because no matter what, I'm still digging the SAME OLD MATS for the SAME OLD ARMOR that has the SAME OLD STATS as the Fyros stuff. All it does is look different, and frankly, that's nowhere near interesting enough for me to learn.

I'm not a mindless grinder. I don't enjoy that. I enjoy playing around with different combinations in different recipies, and I've already become bored with the Fyros stuff. Since there's no difference save cosmetic for the other races' gear, there's no motivation for me to learn it, and since this game isn't mission-driven in the slightest... what's left?

Not much for a player like me, I'm afraid. And that sucks to say that. I love the potential this game has, but in order to realize potential one's got to want to. And in reading over some of the other ideas that get proposed... I just don't get the impression improvement and variety are even WANTED.

So, forgive this newbie for oversteppping bounds and making a suggestion. It won't happen again, I assure you.

The point is that each race has it's own specific design. The different designs allow for variety so we aren't all using and wearing the same stuff. You use MATIS mats to craft MATIS gear and FYROS mats to craft FYROS armor.

People actually enjoy the concept of crafting and digging. Some prefer it over fighting. You take away their speciality and you might as well kick them out of the game because then nobody will have to work to become a master of the skill and essentially you will be cutting back on the oh so precious time you consider to be finite.

I've been here practically eight years now and I have not mastered all melee magics or crafts. The only thing I have is dig. I'm still here because I don't see ryzom as a grind box. I see it as a sand box where I can chat, relax, do whatever I want, do some PvP, get invovled in events, and do occupations.

Too lazy to go intot he browser....