English

I am confused about Tryker naming conventions. For the following npcs, which is the surname (family name) and which is the first name (given name):

Ba'Reiliam Baksan
Ba'Darins Baksan

Ba'Darins Derren
Ba'Reiliam Derren

Ailan Mac'Kean - who goes by Govenor Ailan, not Govenor Mac'Kean?

Also confused about Zoraï naming conventions. Is the hyphenated portion the surname?

Mabreka Cheng-Ho (Cho) : who goes by Grand Sage Mabreka, not Grand Sage Cho (or Cheng-Ho).

Ailan and Mabreka are their first names (or given names if you prefer), we know that much.

All current leaders seem to go by their first names. Though the previous Tryker governor went by last name, he was named Still Wyler and went by Governor Wyler, not Governor Still.

For wandering NPCs however, it's anyone's guess :P

It's funny though, all Tryker NPCs have a ' in either their first or last name, but never neither and never both. All Zoraï NPCs have a - in either their first or last name, but never neither and never both.

As far as I can tell, all Tryker have a patronymic or metronymic surname that is written first. The M' /Ba'/ etc. are marks indicating descent (just as Mac, Mc and O') are in modern Scottish and Irish surnames). There appears to be a minor breakage of that pattern with a very few Tryker, Stil Wyler and Loria being prominent. Since they are apparently true patryonymic and metronymic markers, one would not in general use the byname in formal address. (See the pattern in Iceland even today.)

Thus my proper name is Mac'Od Bittty, but I use Bitttymacod to avoid confusing the Sassenach (errr... I mean Matis.) Were I somehow to become one of the Taliar, I would be addressed as Taliar Bittty, not Taliar Mac'Od. In some of the Chronicles the order of name and byname seems to be regularized, probably for the same reason.

-- Bittty

And now in English, Bitty? :P

LOL - onomastic studies are difficult to talk about without using some jargon.

onomastic -- having to do with the study of names.
Patronymic --- a surname based on your father's name
Metronymic -- a surname based on your mother's name
byname -- any part of your name other than the given name. Used to distinguish one Marelli from another. There are many kinds of bynames, including the above, true surnames, names of locations or names of occupation.

So, in Iceland today if your name is Helga and your fathers name is Sven, you would be Helga Svensdottir. If you were Sven's son Karl, you would be Karl Svensson. Metronymics are much rarer in human cultures, but in Norman French where the "son of" marker is "fitz" we do see an example of William fitz Maud. In all cases where the patronymics and metronymics have not yet made the conversion to being inherited surnames, the form of address ignores the byname.

The order of bynames and given names depends on language and culture. Usually bynames are placed after the given name, but not always. In the case of Tryker names it is clear that the patronymics and metronymics are first in the usual case. For the Matis the family names seem to be heritable surnames and are after the given name.

Ty for the info. :)

Hmm, interesting, but then for "Ba'Darins something" to be a name, there'd also have to be a "Be'something Darin"... I wonder if there is...

At least Tryker have a pattern, 99% of them is indeed in the shape "Be'Something Something". If you look around you can find a few rare example of "Something Be'Something" instead.

Zoraï on the other hand seem to be divided 50/50 between "Ha-Something Something" and "Something Ha-Something"

And Matis and Fyros really have no clue at all which is the given name and which the byname....

After Mac'Od Bittty's first post, I looked up "patronymic" on the internet. I found this site which sheds considerable light on the issue:

http://dgmweb.net/Ancillary/OnE/Patronymics.html

What might have started as generationally evolving patronymic names would probably have become fixed as relatively unchanging surnames over time.

In the Tyrker culture this fix seems solidly in place. For example, you will find multiple "Ba'Darins _____", but no "__'_____ Darins". It seems that the using "Darins" as a given name is no longer prevalent in Tryker culture. Thus two different "Ba'Darins _____" encountered today are likely (depending on how long ago the surname fixation occurred) to be related.

In the Zoraï culture the situation seems a bit more fluid. You will find multiple "Shu-Quan _____", "_____ Shu-Quan", and even a solitary "___-_____ Quan". Obviously the given name "Quan" is still in use. So it is possible for some patronymic naming to still be occurring. However, it is not likely to be prevalent given the rarity of "Quan" as a given name.

The ordering of the name presentations seems to have a different cultural basis, and is perhaps dependant on occupation. For example, in Zora you will find the Apartment Caretakers use the surname first convention, while the trainers use the surname last convention. However, regardless of position it seems likely that the hyphenated portion is the surname. Indeed, there are instances where the names of the same individual (Ba'Darins Baksan vs. Baksan Ba'Darins) appears in either order depending on who is discussing them.