#1 [en] 

To start off, my idea is very similar to what is present in other games, and one in particular. That one game showed a glimpse of what is possible, However, I really think it could work here, add some pizazz to the game, AND be taken to a much deeper level.

The first part is musical instrument crafting (new skill tree yay?). The quality of the crafting plans and materials would determine things like acoustical range, quality of sound, etc. One ocarina might have a richer, more vibrant sound than another ... but sometimes you might want the rougher sound for a work that you are composing.

This aspect to custom-tailor instruments during crafting is where Ryzom's implementation could outshine anything ever seen in any other game.

Types of musical instruments should be up for discussion. There should be enough for each race to have at least one, if not two or more, but not so many as to overwhelm the crafting system.

Alluding to the composition of music earlier, it should be possible to compose your own music, according to the range of your current musical instrument that you are wielding. Completed compositions should be a copyable, tradable object that you can share with your friends or musical group. Only the owner of the original composition should be able to edit it; everyone who has a copy would receive any edited changes that are made (ie: the copy is just a link back to the original composition).

Compositions should optionally specify multiple parts, and each player with a copy of that composition should be able to specify which part they want to play. If there is only one part, obviously the choice is easier =)

To play a particular piece of music, you would hold an instrument in your main hand, and a composition in your offhand. For a multi-part composition to be played synchronously with others, the musicians must be in the same group. When everyone has signified (to the game) that they are ready, the leader of the group would issue the command to begin. The music would play until the end of the composition, or until any of the members disconnects, leaves group, or stops playing.

I know I'll probably take some heat because this isn't exactly an original idea, but music is something that would add tremendous flair to events such as faires and weddings, or even duels and gladiatorial contests (Three Stooges' Curly and 'Pop Goes the Weasel' anyone?).

#2 [en] 

Who cares if it's an original idea? It's a good idea, that's what is important. Ryzom could surely use more stuff like this.

However, I think you should be able to preserve the composition as it is, or even include your own changes (while crediting the original work). If you allow the original composer to change it retroactively, there will be much griefing from disgruntled young artists who often decide it's a good idea to destroy their work altogether.

#3 [en] 

Hmm, good point. How about this:

When you create a composition, it is an Original. Only the author of an Original may make a modification to it. If the author cannot be found, and someone else now holds his or her Original, no more changes to that Original will ever be made.

Anyone who holds an Original may make a Copy. These copies may not be modified, but may be distributed to others. Copies are linked to the Original. If the author makes changes to the Original, those changes will immediately be reflected in all copies that exist.

If you hold an Original that does not belong to you, or if you have a Copy, and you wish to preserve its current state or create your own composition based on it, you may derive a new composition from what you have. This new composition becomes an Original with you as its author. Viewing the history of the composition will show full attribution to authors of all previous compositions including (in-game) dates when the Original and any derivatives were created. There is, and should be, no distinction made based on how much each derivative work is modified.

If you destroy an Original, the copies are not destroyed. Obviously, no more copies will ever be generated, but also those copies will never change because there is no more Original.

#4 [en] 

I like it, although it still allows the creator to change the original majestic symphony into "twinkle twinkle little star", thus effectively making all the linked copies useless. But well, I guess it isn't all that much of a problem anyway.

I wonder about the technical aspect of whole thing: input and recording. How would it work? With real-time playing, or something more like akin to editing software? Or, do you think it'd be possible to "level" it, gaining additional music stanzas, instrument proficiencies and stuff?

#5 [en] 

Oh wow, I'm all about this. I've always been a sucker for the bardic classes, and the ability to actually compose would be fantastic :)

#6 [en] 

I'm not sure about the actual composition bit yet; that is a little more complex to work out than ideas about how to craft things. Before I spent that time, I wanted to make sure I wouldn't be flamed to a crisp first for the suggestion =) Perhaps we could all work on ideas together about how best to suggest a composition implementation. I'll also spend time on it.

For the crafting, instead of having 250 levels of each instrument, I was thinking of just having crafting levels for each type of instrument because, really, they're just flavour items and nothing that will influence whether you level faster or kill bosses faster. I'd even be happy with grinding not required for instrument crafting.:

Percussion Instrument Crafting

- Instruments that produce their sound by one object or part of the instrument striking another object or part of the instrument. Examples would include: Xylophone, Cymbals, Drum, Tambourine, Head of the nearest Fyros =)

String Instrument Crafting

- Instruments that produce their sound by plucking or vibrating one or more strings. Examples would include: Violin, Harp, Lyre, Banjo

Wind Instrument Crafting

- Instruments that produce their sound by the passage (or restriction) of air across or through the instrument. Examples include: Flute, Trumpet, Ocarina, Bagpipes, Accordion, Jug of Stinga Rum =)

Craft 1-20
-- Armour Crafting 21-50
-- Jewel Crafting 21-50
-- Melee Weapon Crafting 21-50
-- Ranged Weapon Crafting 21-50
++ Musical Instrument Crafting 21-50

Musical Instrument Crafting
-- Percussion Instrument Crafting 51-100
-- String Instrument Crafting 51-100
-- Wind Instrument Crafting 51-100

Advanced (blah) Instrument Crafting 101-150
Expert (blah) Instrument Crafting 151-200
Master (blah) Instrument Crafting 201-250

#7 [en] 

I really do think a graphical composition method is the right approach to take, but what variant?

What I'd most like to suggest is to compose in musical notation. It could be a simple matter of drag-and-drop notes, pauses, and other notations onto a staff. But I suppose not everyone reads music, so would this be too much of a learning curve, and get in the way of creativity? For those who do read music, and think about music in musical notation, would the lack of it hinder creativity?

(The "Noteflight" approach seems a little cumbersome, so please don't refer to that when thinking about this)

Another option is a graph. I have seen this used in composition software, and it can help visualize the work for those who can't read music. The left/vertical axis of the graph has the notes and pitches, and the horizontal/bottom axis has time durations. The display creates a small box that can be filled in to determine when and for how long that particular note is played, with some minimum value (16th note?). Fill in the boxes, drag to make longer notes, etc. What isn't filled in doesn't get played.

Not too long ago, I saw a really good example of this done in Flash. It was a short sequence, maybe 15-20 seconds max, and you could create neat, repeating sound shorts. Sadly, and typically, I can't find it now. The closest that I was able to find with a quick search was an online drum machine. Search for it at your own risk; I don't want to supply the address because I don't know if it's safe or dangerous.

Having both available would be ideal =)

Have the composition default to 4/4 time and 120 tempo in the key of C, but allow all of those to be changed.

If your current instrument doesn't have the range of notes that you have selected, it shouldn't restrict you but display them in another colour as warning. You should be able to toggle the ability to "fake" the notes that your current instrument can't play when reviewing sample playback of your composition while in-progress. (If you like what you hear with the "fake" playback, maybe that can encourage you to find or make a better version of your current instrument)

Instrument durability should correspond to how much it is used and the type of instrument. For the sake of game balance, instruments like Flutes that might never degrade in real life should suffer durability damage when played, just like everything else.

#8 [en] 

I love this idea! :)

For the composition part I propose that it is at the very least an option to compose the music realisticly using real scales, so that musicians in RL could use the system comfortably. I have no idea how it would work otherwise for the people who don't know how to compose music in RL.

I also suggest that composition for certain instruments that can in RL play multiple notes at once (i.e. guitar, harp) is track-based. You would in those cases be able to have multiple notes played simultaneously.

Perhaps another fun idea similar to this could be to add a new tool craftable only from specific mats that would be some sort of a magical music player. There would then be magical orbs placed around Atys and when found, could be played via that tool. I think that would be cool. Maybe those orbs could play a part in how 'non-musicians' compose their music in Ryzom?

Last edited by Sinsemilla(arispotle) (1 decade ago)

#9 [en] 

M'mm, music player devices. That's a good idea. Only the holder of the device would be the one to hear the music. It would be a container; you add a copy of whatever music you want to play, and it shows up in the list of selectable tracks. You could then also choose to take the copy out of the music player. Each track you play causes a bit of durability damage.

Perhaps if grouped, you could share your music with the group, and they could have the option to listen or not? This would allow a smaller, somewhat private event to still have the benefits of music without forcing itself on everyone around them and without requiring a full band in addition to the event participants. Want to woo your beloved? Compose a piece of music and surprise him or her with it!

And the magical orbs sound like a Jukebox, which would be a music player for everyone to hear. Could be an object you purchase for your Apartment or Guild Hall and even scattered around towns in popular areas, for places other than central pavilions where you might expect live performances. Jukeboxes could have three modes: random shuffle (continuous play), programmed play (tracks in order, continuous play), or user-selectable (non-continuous play). Jukeboxes in public places could cost dappers to pick a track.

In the Apartment, the owner makes the rules, and in the Guild Hall, the GL/HO make the rules. Others should be able to add a copy of music to the jukebox, but the owner or GL/HO should have to approve it before it can be played. In public places, the members of that civilisation's gov't would have to approve/add the music. I don't know how furniture works (my apartment is barren) but I assume there would be no durability worries with the Jukeboxes.

The music players (personal and jukebox) would be able to play the full range of all tracks of a composition. Maybe at a certain skill level, you can get a racial pattern for a Basic Quality (personal) Music Box, then a Medium Quality, and then a High Quality (at 150 in each music crafting skill?). If it is ever possible to craft furniture in the future, have an option for an Elemental Jukebox that has a little bit of a light show, based on racial origin.

During events, such as the Fairhaven Faire coming up, a jukebox could be playing in the background the whole time for ambiance. Then, at a scheduled time, the jukebox is turned off so live performances can be presented. That would free people up to enjoy the event but still add a little bit of extra festive atmosphere.

These could probably be considered new-ish ideas compared to the original, but they absolutely depend on the primary idea to be implemented, else we are asking the devs to compose hours and hours of original music.

I also suggest that composition for certain instruments that can in RL play multiple notes at once (i.e. guitar, harp) is track-based. You would in those cases be able to have multiple notes played simultaneously.

Definitely 100% agree with having polyphonic instruments actually be polyphonic. Maybe have to set a limit on number of voices each polyphonic instrument can have?

#10 [en] 

I love the idea, but isn't it hard to add new craft skills (or simply skills) in the skill tree?


Rotoa des lacs

#11 [en] 

I like the idea in general, but the composition seems to complicated for me (I didn't read the last post by Erizon if that makes a difference). I don't like much the original artist being able to change every copy, nor do I completely like the editing or reproduction restrictions.

How about each "sheet music" item have its own info attached (rather than linked to the master).

As for copying/editing/redistribution restrictions, what about taking our cue from the creative commons license for the most part? All copies are marked as copies and the person who holds the master can choose to allow or disallow copying, or editing (though don't allow more changes than once or twice a day, please). Attribution would always be on (Original Composor: Erizon\n Contributing Composors (that is, people who edited this copy or parents of this copy before it was made): Nonea, Rajaaar). Redistribution/trading of copies could also be set.

#12 [en] 

(I don't know what "Noteflight" is, so forgive me if this is like what you're referring to there.)

As for composition, I as an amatuer, liked the way the player could compose in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Several buttons on the controller were for the various notes, and the stick allowed both raising or lowering the pitch by half a note and trilling it. An ocarina's a pretty simple instrument, as I understand it, but how about doing something similar for these instruments? Some of the keyboard keys (you're told which :P) are for notes, and moving the mouse or using the scroll wheel allows for raising and lowering the pitch by half a note. More complicated key setups for better instruments. Maybe even something like Frets on Fire's keyboard setup for one of them?

This post and the previous are just some ideas I thought of.

#13 [en] 

The general idea for the copies, etc is multiple:

1) The original author should have complete control over the original work of art, including deleting it if he or she so chooses. This could be where people differ in opinion and the reason for alternative implementations?

Ultimately, if the author chooses not to share the work with anyone else, he or she will keep all copies of it and only demonstrate it to others as a performance. No one else will be able to duplicate it exactly, except through tedious reverse engineering.

2) If the author does share, then it is an implicit agreement that others may use this work as a base for their own creations or modifications.

3) Recipients of copies may not modify the original work, but may create a derivative of it over which they have full rights and control. The author of the original work is automatically credited.

Two other big reasons for allowing the author to change all copies of the original is document revision control and inventory and database storage.

If each music score is an individual and unique item, it requires that data to be repeated multiple times in the backend database. If we assume Ryzom explodes in popularity, that sort of implementation does not scale well at all. It also will not stack, which seems to be something desired when items are the same (see other idea threads).

If a composer is creating a work for an ensemble, there will be stages of updating, distributing changes, and performing. Having multiple "links" to the one original document ensures that the changes propagate instantly to the recipients, streamlining the distribution step.

#14 [en] 

I like the idea very much, it could be a unique feature to Ryzom.

There will be lots of developer's work involved but I think most of it does not need to be done by the (paid) core developers. The hardest parts will be the composer, instrument modeling and playback which can all be developed independently from Ryzom itself.

I dont know if we even need another skill tree for that - or put the emphasis on the crafting of instruments and songs. Good instruments and compositions may give some boni to every homin hearing it.

The game could determine what boni or mali a song creates based on harmonics, rhythm and likes/dislikes of the peoples. These rules should ensure that songs which sound well to us are likely to give boni. This algorithm is hidden in the game and more complex than the crafting algorithms making it very hard (almost impossible) to find the perfect song even for one race. Remember: it took quite a while for the item crafting formulas to be discovered and they are pretty simple and easy to figure out (item craft preview doesn't require any meaterial to be actually spent to figure it out).

Boni or mali could just be enough to make it viable (from the perspective of game mechanics) to have one homin of a full team play a song instead of healing/nuking. Larger groups (marauder raid groups, op fight partys) would benefit even more.


Casy * Foreign Secretary * Alliance of Honor
Intensive Care Bear

#15 [en] 

the musical instrument could be like magic: defense or offense. even like taunt ie used to lure like the sirens of greek legends.
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