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#16 Multilingual 

Moniq
@Laoviel
I like the idea of a cooldown.
[...]

About deathporting: I consider it to be exploit as well and I don't do it. Would be nice to fix it.
[...]

Quoting Laoviel who agrees to a suggestion to: „change respawns so that, upon death, the player can only respawn at their last teleport location.“

Logically then there would exist in the whole of Atys only one respawn place: Silan. Ranger Camp.

While that would surely eliminate the need for the devs to maintain any other respawn points, still, i would not consider that idea to be viable, not even for ‚endgamers‘ who, ‚having mastered everything‘ ‚barely ever have to teleport anyway.‘ [since].‘They don‘t care about DP.‘ “

At least thanks to there being a cooldown for TP pact usage, then the respawned toon will have time to think things over before again risking respawning in Silan.

#17 [en] 

Moniq
@Luminatrix
About scouting: You really want to continue? Systematic long-term farming of bosses or supreme materials without any reason (in meaning of need) is rude to others.

I'm sorry...what?

First of all, it's hardly systematic. It's not like I spend all my time scouting and even if I did, I won't find all the bosses all the time. There are quite a lot of other hunters. Bosses have a long respawn timer as well and I don't camp spawns of the important ones, so I would hardly call it farming.

Secondly, there are some boss mats that are always needed. Shooketh buds, Madakoo eyes, Yelkoo shrooms...I could go on. It's not just filling the GH with mats that will never be used (though quite a number of boss mats are useless anyway). At least not in my guild. And there are also bosses nobody hunts. I have seen Jukoo in its spot for the past 2 weeks and nobody has so much as touched it because it's a worthless weed with materials nobody wants.

Thirdly, by your logic, doing literally anything that means a resource won't be available to others for a while is "rude". This means: doing any NPC boss, digging sup and exc mats in PR, hunting nameds and bosses. This makes no sense. On one hand, you complain that resources are too readily available (exactly because it was assumed there would be competition and not everyone would be able to acquire them), on the other that taking them, making them unavailable for others is a bad thing. Make up your mind.

Not to mention, nothing is stopping the guilds who didn't kill the boss from trading for the boss mats with those who did. Last time I checked, items in this game weren't soulbound.

Lastly, I will explain why I personally hunt. It will probably go right over your head anyway (because you have shown many times that you refuse to listen and have explicitly ignored parts of my posts), but it's worth a shot. Bosshunting is personal to me. I was taught how to do it by someone who was a hunter, a mentor to me and a dear friend. This person doesn't play anymore, and I see continuing what he loved doing as taking up the torch after him. But, even if that weren't the case, I would likely do it because it's fun. Because there are bosses who provide a challenge (Kinkoo comes to mind, I like that the healers can't go asleep pushing one button, he's my favourite boss for sure) and also because I see it as competition among bosshunters. When I see that 5 other people are around Atys scouting, it feels all the better when I'm the one who finds a boss.

Is it somewhat time-sinking? Sure. But it's a time sink with a reward that's worth the trouble. Unlike running everywhere on foot just because a bunch of people with extremist views think teleportation is bad. I hope you can see the difference between arriving at a destination and essentially winning a trophy for beating other hunters in a race to find a boss. You are really comparing apples to oranges here.

Once again, the only argument you have is "your fun is wrong".

---

Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#18 [en] 

Tryroamer
Moniq
@Laoviel
I like the idea of a cooldown.
[...]

About deathporting: I consider it to be exploit as well and I don't do it. Would be nice to fix it.
[...]

Quoting Laoviel who agrees to a suggestion to: „change respawns so that, upon death, the player can only respawn at their last teleport location.“

Logically then there would exist in the whole of Atys only one respawn place: Silan. Ranger Camp.

While that would surely eliminate the need for the devs to maintain any other respawn points, still, i would not consider that idea to be viable, not even for ‚endgamers‘ who, ‚having mastered everything‘ ‚barely ever have to teleport anyway.‘ [since].‘They don‘t care about DP.‘ “

At least thanks to there being a cooldown for TP pact usage, then the respawned toon will have time to think things over before again risking respawning in Silan.

How would Silan be the only respawn location? I think you have misunderstood. What I meant was: You teleport to Trench of Trials. You die. You can respawn at the Trench of Trials teleporter, but can't respawn at the other vortexes in Lands of Umbra.

This would not change much for the player if they just happened to die and needed to respawn, but it would at least somewhat fix deathporting.

---

Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#19 [en] 

Sinvaders
Why someone should stop doing what he likes?

Even one new homin who will have a think is success.

Luminatrix
...
Once again, the only argument you have is "your fun is wrong".


I am sorry but we obviously do not understand each other and it looks to me that you think from the beginning that I attack you or what. Maybe I can't express myself clearly enough. I will try once again.

First: All I say is what _I_ think and how _I_ would like things to be. That does not mean that it will happen (while obviously I am a minority with no power but words) nor that you can't have your own different vision and especially not that I restrict you to push it. Go for it. Represent it every day.

Second: When I talk about game rules, where the traveling itself is _important_ part of the game, I am afraid that your agument about "no reward" is not valid. In such setting, to get from point A to point B is reward and success itself, because traveling in such (my) world is hard, long and dangerous. Of course it makes no sense in current setting and of course it would probably be nothing for someone who does not like traveling and see no challange in it. I vote for change for myself. You vote against it for yourself. I see nothing wrong on it.

Third: Maybe it was not clear but I did try to not address that part about exploiting resources specificly on you nor your guild. As I wrote before, I don;t know how you nor your guild do act. However I see no reason to change my mind in question of exploiting: When the only reason to gather materials is that no one else could have it, it is rude by me. Especially in low level areas.

I am sorry if you take it personally. I don't know you to tell what person you are. However I see no reason to be silent just because my opinions are in minority. I can respect your desires but I can't accept nor support it. As same as you can't accept nor support my visions.

Only when we make clear our visions to each other and once we understand each other, we can get to the core: what can we change for both of us to feel that we did something for better Ryzom?

#20 [en] 

I would also add this bit:

Over time, I have talked to several players, many of whom have left the game by now. A common thread and complaint about the world is this: yes, Atys is a large planet, sure ... but it is also devoid of interesting stuff to do.

Regions can be quite repetitive, and while the change of seasons does bring a little variety in mob composition and foliage, said variety has no real end (or substance). And with that, lots of regions are quite useless, filled with the kind of "content" too few are interested in.

Take Nexus, for example. Why should one bother to visit it, except to hunt the bosses? It used to have supreme materials, now it doesn't .. the risk to get ganked isn't offset by anything. Why would anyone visit the obscure parts of Outlaw Canyon? There isn't anything of interest there. Why would anyone care to explore the better part of Knot of Dementia, except to trek and/or find bosses? etc etc

So, in this light ... let's review the initial proposition: "make teleportation harder, so that people go sightseeing more". Well, if over time you have talked to enough players, you will know that players don't often find value in sightseeing. Especially not if done in a forced manner.

While we don't have rewarding missions and/or dynamic/random events ... there is little point talking about changes to teleportation, imho.

Last edited by Laoviel (1 month ago)

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Laoviel, officer of Rift Walkers

#21 [en] 

Laoviel
I would also add this bit:

Over time, I have talked to several players, many of whom have left the game by now. A common thread and complaint about the world is this: yes, Atys is a large planet, sure ... but it is also devoid of interesting stuff to do.

Regions can be quite repetitive, and while the change of seasons does bring a little variety in mob composition and foliage, said variety has no real end (or substance). And with that, lots of regions are quite useless, filled with the kind of "content" too few are interested in.

Take Nexus, for example. Why should one bother to visit it, except to hunt the bosses? It used to have supreme materials, now it doesn't .. the risk to get ganked isn't offset by anything. Why would anyone visit the obscure parts of Outlaw Canyon? There isn't anything of interest there. Why would anyone care to explore the better part of Knot of Dementia, except to trek and/or find bosses? etc etc

So, in this light ... let's review the initial proposition: "make teleportation harder, so that people go sightseeing more". Well, if over time you have talked to enough players, you will know that players don't often find value in sightseeing. Especially not if done in a forced manner.

While we don't have rewarding missions and/or dynamic/random events ... there is little point talking about changes to teleportation, imho.

I couldn't agree more. There *are* beautiful places to see, but sadly not that many. And it's hard to go sightseeing in a place with no sights. And I don't mean this as trying to harp on the devs in any way. I understand that the team is small and is doing the best they can and I appreciate their hard work.

There is something we can do to remedy this, however. We can, as the community, organize various small events. I know I personally am not the best at coming up with ideas, but I'm definitely more than happy to help with such things.

---

Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#22 [en] 

Laoviel
... let's review the initial proposition: "make teleportation harder, so that people go sightseeing more".
That isn't the initial proposition. Yeah, sounds similar, but misses the point.

The point isn't, teleport yes, teleport no, it isn't even about sightseeing, the point is the balancing of the traveling methods, specifically when crossing national borders.
A correct balancing of teleporting and trekking should be like:
Teleports: quick and safe, but very expensive
Trekk: cheap and rewarding, but dangerous
(tinkering with the price was just the first thing which came to mind, actually anything goes as long as there are compelling reasons to use both traveling methods to change nation, it goes both ways, contain teleporting on long distances, and reward more dangerous traveling)

At the moment the traveling methods look unbalanced, in the worst way of the two extremes, cause while teleports don't add anything to the game aside personal convenience, so their loss or underuse wouldn't bring much harm, actual traveling is what breaths life in the game world, more than any npc, mechanic, or event, it's the players who make a gaming world alive, the less chances there are to cross roads the more empty the world looks.
Any mmorpg main duty is to facilitate players meeting up.

Was this any other game, or just a virtual chat, players could just meet in cities and during events and be satisfied with that, but in a world of supposedly explorers and adventurers, the shortage of encounters on the road, and the unwillingness to walk, reflects negatively on the quality of said explorers and adventurers, makes this look like a world of sofa rangers.
Just have some self-respect and go out there to flaunt your exploring experience and knowledge of the world.

What good is an explorer who doesn't have tales to tell?



Player run events are still nice, and good to have, but a balanced system is worth 100000 events, when the talk is only about keeping a game alive.
When people meet and come together naturally, without an event pushing them, isn't that so much better?
An event eventually ends, or the people running events tire out, but a functional system works all the time.
Events should be just about having fun, burdening events with more serious stuff, like carrying activity, is regrettable.


One note about game driven entertainment and player driven entertainment:
It's actually really hard for any game to be entertaining for long time, it takes real developing talent and experience to even create something decent, eventually the players stop looking at the scenery and focus instead on the numbers and the backstage, to say, relying on the bare world to carry the entertainment is a common player mistake.
It is a natural outcome for singleplayer games, you finish the game and stop playing, then move on to the next game, but applying the same reasoning to mmorpgs means not being able to differentiate playing with others from playing alone.
People who quit because the game wasn't offering them something, probably should have played a singleplayer game instead.
The lack of community, or it's bad quality, those are proper reasons to leave any mmorpg.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Zeando (1 month ago)

#23 [en] 

I believe that this is another case of good intentions gone bad. You are correct about it being hard for any game to be entertaining for a long time. That's why I cannot agree with you on some points you bring up. It boils down to the fact that those of us who have been in the endgame for years have found ways to keep it entertaining and you are proposing something that would detract from or eliminate our enjoyment. You can read the details, or skip right to the last paragraph for the TL:DR version.

Some of us like doing things other than walking. I consider not having being able to do anything fun enough to bother logging in to be pretty much the polar opposite of "not much harm". Suppose that I am just logging in and my friends say, "Hey, Jukoo is up!". Would you rather I have fun with my friends and enjoy Ryzom, or apologize for not being able to make the trek before I have to log off and get ready for work the next day? Even cutting a two-hour trek to the other side of the rootball down to 30-45 minutes by allowing me to TP between capitols and only schlep across one region would pretty much put the kibosh on me hanging with my friends. And no, moving closer to them is not really an option as many of us hang in multiple circles; the only way it would be feasible is if every homin on Atys lived in one city.

You also overlook that many of us have tales to tell from places we've been hundreds/thousands of times already. While the word may seem exciting to the newcomers, there will come a point where the entire map is mundanely well-known because we've explored it all repeatedly multiple times again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. Sure, having a Great Kincher come at you may seem real exciting the first few times, but after the 893rd time they are more tedious than entertaining. By about the 5,914th time, it's an outright annoyance, not an adventure. Traveling simply does not breath life into a game world that you already know as well as many of us know it. Those of us who stay here beyond a few months do so for reasons other than travel; we are about destinations. Maybe it's the mats needed for new gear, maybe it's to meet up with their friends, but the real fun does not happen until after the traveling is over.

You're also overlooking the amount of hunting that goes on that would not be feasible (or, for some of us, even possible) without TPs. Given that hunting is one of the few things that keeps end-gamers from quitting the game, do you really want to take that away? Do you really want to make Ryzom like a single-player campaign in which there is nothing to do once you get your first Master?

Simply put, you cannot make a community by smashing people together and saying, "Okay children, make friends!". It really does not work that way. Trying to force the issue only makes it worse. You can get people to quit because it's all walking and swatting pests, but that's not good. You can get people to quit by changing the game they love into something they no longer love, but those changes had better bring in more players than they lose if the game is to survive. You can force people who have a history of animosity to be in the same location until one or the other decides it's just not fun. But that's about it. I applaud your efforts, but fear that the collateral damage is simply not worth risking for the small chance that it may buck tons of historical precedent and actually work out the way you think it will.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#24 [en] 

One possible compromise would be to have Yubo points finally mean something, and change the unlocking requirements for some TPs from fame/allegiance to achievement-based. That would give incentive for newer folks to go to parts of the map they may not think to go while not being unduly harsh on those who have already been to every single nook and cranny of the rootball at least 47 times.

It's a thought :)

---

Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#25 [en] 

Gidget
Simply put, you cannot make a community by smashing people together and saying, "Okay children, make friends!". It really does not work that way. Trying to force the issue only makes it worse.

I agree with this. Yes, I am playing an MMO, but that doesn't mean I want to be interacting with everyone all of the time (when it comes to certain parts of the community, never interacting with them again would be too soon). It's not even that I hate treks - I don't. If there's one going on and I'm online, I'm happy to join. I often help my guildmates trek packers to other regions, just for the fun of traveling together. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that turning something people do for fun into something they have to do is a great way to make them resent it.

But sometimes I come home after a rough day and I just want to spend an hour or two digging in peace, without making contact with strangers. I prefer being able to reach out to others on my own terms by participating in events and talking in Universe, rather than being forced into it.

---

Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#26 [en] 

@Luminatrix and @Gidget

in this case a heartily bestowed +1

Luminatrix
Gidget
Simply put, you cannot make a community by smashing people together and saying, "Okay children, make friends!". It really does not work that way. Trying to force the issue only makes it worse.

I agree with this. Yes, I am playing an MMO, but that doesn't mean I want to be interacting with everyone all of the time (when it comes to certain parts of the community, never interacting with them again would be too soon). It's not even that I hate treks - I don't. If there's one going on and I'm online, I'm happy to join. I often help my guildmates trek packers to other regions, just for the fun of traveling together. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that turning something people do for fun into something they have to do is a great way to make them resent it.

But sometimes I come home after a rough day and I just want to spend an hour or two digging in peace, without making contact with strangers. I prefer being able to reach out to others on my own terms by participating in events and talking in Universe, rather than being forced into it.

#27 Multilingual 

Just to add to this:

The Karavan first introduced telelportation when they brought technology to Atys. It was gifted to Homins in exchange for them worshipping Jena. It makes perfect sense, you can't have Karavan teleportation without the balancing Kami & Marauder.

So, you can't just decide to make teleportation harder because it suits some players, without re-writing the Lore (at least in part).

The real point here is, with so many players asking for more content, better events, new things to do etc. there's better things for devs to invest time in (that may benefit the larger community) rather than making teleportation harder and breaking the lore.

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Everone has an opinion, and of course are entitled to have one, but others are equally entitled to decide whether they choose to agree or disagree. Acting like a complete Muppet isn't likely going to change minds or win support :)

#28 [en] 

+1 Bubbason

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Do what you *NEED* to do for yourself. No need to force yourself to do something that isn't good for you. Ryzom is a game and should be played for fun. Real life first. ☻

#29 [en] 

My experiences with treking (it's probably boring)

(in order)

1: I did a trek ALL BY MYSELF from the desert to the forest, got to "hidden source" tried to leave that monster-inhabited-pi-of-hell and died quickly.... respawned, wash, rinse, repeat. I eventually got through and decided I probably need some help.
I wisely didn't get myself eaten and I got to Yrkanis, got a Kami TP (actually four of them) WINNING.

My DP was HUGE. yes, there is an upper limit, I know... and it was maxxed.

2: Joined a "trekking party" from the desert to Zora. That was easy! Didn't die, got there OK... WINNING

3: This was a trek from Pyr to Fairhaven, it was with CRAP.... can't remember his name (brain damage is a problem) and hi ALT. We TP-ed from Pyr to Yrkanis, tp-ed to Alavae, and walked and ran and got ourselves to yet another horrible place of death, somehow we got to Liberty Lake and from there we got to Fairhaven. it was that person whose name I cannot recall that got me there,

Make no mistake, a trek is a good thing! A trek will make you NOT DEAD. On your own, you are probably dead meat. If you ever have the opportunity, and if you need it, go on a trek. and bow down and worship the person who takes you an a trek..... if he keeps you alive.

((( PS: The name I couldn't remember is Mjollren )))

Last edited by Kovabon (1 month ago)

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Water the tree, not the fruit.

#30 [en] 

@Kovabon - I don't think anyone is arguing against that first trek. The difference of opinion is whether such treks should be mandatory every single time you want to get from one place to another. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

Don't get me wrong, I sometimes do treks just for fun. Occasionally I even do one without a lowbie in tow. However, I'm not always up for spending half my night just running simply because a few folks think TP-ing is lazy or that exploring places one has been a thousand times is still as fun as that first trek.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.
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