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IDEAS FOR RYZOM


Should we change to faction based PVP?
Yes, change the deathmatch PVP to faction PVP!
Atys: Cotare, Heernis, Jellona, Kaylerys, Lacuna, Luminatrix, Mermaidia, Revvy, Sinvaders, Sowen, Tomstato, Vorazun
12
50.0%
No, it makes no sense.
Atys: Aleeskandaro, Bazett, Eolinius, Jorgensen, Kurutani, Placio, Wirroy, Zendae
8
33.3%
No, we are too few, there will be no PVP anymore!
Atys: Yuritau
1 (1)
4.2%
Other thoughts (Please write it down)
Atys: Gidget, Victoriacamper
2 (1)
8.3%
Other
Atys: Vanixia
1
4.2%
Abstain 5
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#106 [en] 

Kimmerin
I didn't bother to read the entire thread, I got there was something about older version of fame calculation and some "new enemy". Somehow it should bring back the interest in tagged PvP in particular and even PvP in general. No, it won't.

Let me explain you by what factors any PvP-community is driven (Ryzom being no exception).

1) Achievement - and by this term I mean not silly titles or checkmarks in Achievement list, I mean the feeling that you have reached something, that you and your team / guild / alliance have changed the world around.

2) Rewards - be it loot from enemies or their property, or PvP points, badges, whatever. The stuff you get if you win.

3) PvP mechanics and PvP itself as a process - interesting mechanics with a lot of variety and theorycrafting, engaging activity in which one have to think and act fast, have to know the game, with lots of things to choose from, fitting different playstyles - that's what keep players interested and makes them logging in game.


Now, in Ryzom, there is:

- no achievements to speak of. Win 100 fights or lose 100 fights, your faction neither gain nor lose anything. Your actions in PvP don't matter, end of story.

- no rewards to speak of. Rewards obtained with PvP points are scarce and aren't that good, the only thing that is useful is the skirt and crystals for Maras.

- mechanics and PvP process are so-so. There is strong emphasis on quality of gear and random numbers. The variety is low.

Consider all of this and you won't be surprised why PvP community in Ryzom is a small bunch and why PvP players don't stick around for long, when there are so many other games that have to offer much more to them.

So, when there is a new idea about a "PvP revamp" of any sort, I measure it against three main points I have mentioned above. If the idea doesn't help or improve any of them, I consider it a waste of developer's time.

Good point and i fully agree with you. I quote it on the main topic. Thanks.

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#107 [en] 

Siela
Heernis
Ok back to the actual topic.
5) I would be willing to develop the lore further (to help), but how can you do that, if you have no idea of the process, how can you do that?
7) As I found out, players aren't really interested, or just lazy or don't have enough time on platforms to promote Ryzom, which is also a reason why Ryzom doesn't really reach everyone who is interested. Or simply, players are miserably organized on the subject.

Ok, these are the points I can come up with for your contribution. You don't have to and shouldn't leave everything to the Ryzom team, but there should also be a player team that organizes such things. But you have to do it ;-) Selfish action is really wrong at the place, I say that especially to myself, because everyone is it in his own way.
Finally, I think that a long-term player should take on the role of organizing players. I am definitely there when tasks are structurally distributed among players. This organizer should preferably not be involved in the Ryzom team.

Ryzom Team can be joined by anyone so why should it not be Ryzom Team? Also for 5) you best tell Tamarea on Rocket.Chat or write an email to tamarea@ryzom.com that you would be interested in lore.

This should only be a proposal and not an instruction. It's more based on the fact that I've never worked in the Ryzom team and that it's rather intransparent to me, but not completely. Good steps have been taken to counteract this objectively and emotionally. For example through the new magazine, which I very much welcome. My experience so far is that contacting the Ryzom team via e-mail is rather bad, for whatever reason. I'll try Rocketchat soon.

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#108 [en] 

@Kimmerin - While you're not wrong about your three points, I feel that two of them are a matter of perspective and wish to offer counterpoints.

1) Not all PvPers are out to change the world; they're more concerned with personal achievement. Effecting any meaningful change in the world through PvP requires enough teamwork to dilute any individual's contribution enough to diminish the sense of achievement even if the rewards are greater. In other words, winning a 2v2 brings many folks more sense of achievement than being on of dozens/hundreds of homins that wrest control of an outpost from a rival.

2) PvP is also about adapting and preparation. Even among multi-masters with all q250 Sup gear, those who plan ahead and react to changes better and faster have an advantage. My take is that any perceived lack of variety is largely due to the small number of participants.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#109 [en] 

Gidget
2) PvP is also about adapting and preparation. Even among multi-masters with all q250 Sup gear, those who plan ahead and react to changes better and faster have an advantage. My take is that any perceived lack of variety is largely due to the small number of participants.

Agree with the whole comment btw, also the problem is that you need 2 to 4 master's at the very least to be able to go into PvP...
Leveling is painfull etc, its not a MOBA where you can just go into it and have fun fightning, then its done, all ggs and basta see you next time.
Its more complex and require tons of personal time to invest in it.

That also why there not much PvP i think, had lot of example of players just leaving the game before, or because the grind was too heavy :)

Got a newbie once, she did her first master pike 250; asked me: it is the same for everything?

.. what do you want i answer to this? ^^ yes it is.. and yes you need this and that to PvP..

No points she did leave the game :)

Last edited by Revvy (1 month ago)

#110 [en] 

Revvy
Leveling is painfull etc, its not a MOBA where you can just go into it and have fun fightning, then its done, all ggs and basta see you next time.
Its more complex and require tons of personal time to invest in it.

That also why there not much PvP i think, had lot of example of players just leaving the game before, or because the grind was too heavy :)

Got a newbie once, she did her first master pike 250; asked me: it is the same for everything?

.. what do you want i answer to this? ^^ yes it is.. and yes you need this and that to PvP..

No points she did leave the game :)

I dont agree with the point "and yes you need this and that to PvP.." thats really not true. It matters only, if you want to have chance against an highlevel player. If both are the nearly the same level, you can do PVP equally. The rootproblem is, that here are more Multimaster PVP-Players over years and noobs have to grind fast to have a chance against them.

But i fully agree that the preparation process is complex in Ryzom and you have to invest much time. It takes months till you understand how to PVPing professional and how to get and craft good gears. Without a team it is a pain or you are a very patient person... But this is also the thing way i play this game. You have soo many possibilities and a MMOPRG shouldnt be like a Offline-RPG, where everything everytime the same xD

I guess the Ryzom is not made for fast grinding and Fast-EXP-Junkies, but more for Roleplay. But since Roleplay is nearly dead, so i think, the everyday grinding for noobs is a pain and no fun.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Heernis (1 month ago)

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#111 [en] 

The grind is not a PvP-specific issue. Even many PvE-only players quit well before they get to even their first master. Whether one does PvE, PvP, or both, Ryzom is not a game for the impatient. However, there are those who see the grind as making masters more of an accomplishment than those who master everything in a month or less.

Still, there is a bit of a steep entrance requirement regardless of level. Even if we had a Silan Fight Club with no toons with skills over 30 and no gear better than Fine q45, a decent PvPer would have to know jewels, the relative strengths/weaknesses of various weapons, and how to balance protection against malus. There is a lot more effort required than just grinding enough levels to be competitive with those of us who have played long enough to get 6-60 masters; it just doesn't seem that way since most of us learned that stuff forever ago.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#112 [en] 

Gidget
personal achievement

I meant achievements, recognized by the game. As of now, there is no depth in tagged PvP, no bigger picture. Whether I fight for a faction or race, there is no progress of any sorts. It's all meaningless gameplay-wise. No difference between an intense 15 min. PvP fight and killing AFKers, hence my point that tagged PvP in Ryzom doesn't matter.

Of course, personal achievements are also important and many players engage in PvP, simply looking for "good fights" and the thrill of fighting against other players. But it rather falls under third category, enjoying PvP as a process, which I'd call "The Fun category". I placed it under #3, but by no means I consider it the third by importance.
Gidget
My take is that any perceived lack of variety is largely due to the small number of participants.

I meant the lack of variety in items, mechanics and actions used in PvP. For example, I'd love to see 5 or more blade-specific stanzas with various effects. But nope, there is only Bleeding. I'd love to see more gun stanzas - but all we have is Hit Rate. Some actions for shields, like block or temporary increase of Parry?.. Nope, take that useless Shielding. And so on, I guess you get the idea.

My opinion is based on comparison to other games and that's why I rarely engaged in tagged PvP while I've been actively playing Ryzom. There are no gameplay achievements, rewards are poor and good fights are elusive. It feels more like RP activity indeed, which I'm indifferent to.

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"People let the same problem make them miserable for years when they could just say "So what". That's one of my favorite things to say. "So what". - Andy Warhol.

#113 [en] 

Kimmerin
I meant achievements, recognized by the game. As of now, there is no depth in tagged PvP, no bigger picture. Whether I fight for a faction or race, there is no progress of any sorts. It's all meaningless gameplay-wise.
There is a fine line there. Either you have a perpetual stalemate that makes people stop bothering to even try, or you have one side get enough of an advantage that it causes a snowball effect that effectively decimates one side while leaving the survivor wondering what to do next while the other (at least mostly)stops bothering to even try. Which is better? Before you answer, think about how much hopping of faction lines has happened solely to prevent the latter.
Kimmerin
No difference between an intense 15 min. PvP fight and killing AFKers, hence my point that tagged PvP in Ryzom doesn't matter.
A revamp of the rewards system might mitigate that. Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that rewards were based on damage dealt. A digger has lower HP than someone in HP gear, an AFKer will die sooner than one who uses self-heal, and a 2v2 usually has enough healing that you have to work MUCH harder for a kill than you would a less challenging fight. Of course, there are a kajillion ways to abuse that system too, but I think most of those ways are abused already under the current system so I'm not sure it'd be that bad. Either way, it's food for thought that may lead to an actually-workable idea.
Kimmerin
I meant the lack of variety in items, mechanics and actions used in PvP. For example, I'd love to see 5 or more blade-specific stanzas with various effects. But nope, there is only Bleeding. I'd love to see more gun stanzas - but all we have is Hit Rate. Some actions for shields, like block or temporary increase of Parry?.. Nope, take that useless Shielding. And so on, I guess you get the idea.

My opinion is based on comparison to other games and that's why I rarely engaged in tagged PvP while I've been actively playing Ryzom. There are no gameplay achievements, rewards are poor and good fights are elusive. It feels more like RP activity indeed, which I'm indifferent to.
While I agree that many games do indeed have more depth to their combat system, many of them have no depth in any of their other mechanics, and a fair number don't even have any real depth to the lore. In that regard, I suppose PvP is more of an RP activity than it is in, say, Mortal Kombat or PUBG. Lets face it though, Ryzom was never meant to be a combat sim. Sure, combat is a major part of the game, but not as important as it is in a game that has so little else to offer.

Then again, Chess has only 6 types of pieces yet has plenty of depth and strategy, so I'm not sure that adding a whole lot of stanzas to make things more complicated than they already are would be a good thing. In fact, I can see it being a deterrent that turns away even more of those who are already a bit intimidated by the learning curve I mentioned in my previous comment. IMO, there is more complexity than I think you're giving Ryzom credit for even if you don't need quite as many hotkeys; it just seems easy because you've been doing it so long.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#114 Multilingual 

Multilingual | [English] | Deutsch | Fran├žais
Since the discussion is over here and nothing more comes, I try to summarize:
  • Fractional PVP without the possibility of firing at your own people
  • Fractional PVP with the possibility to fire on your own people, but you will lose fame
  • Visibly cosmetic indication of which faction or nation you belong to.
  • Make PVP points more punishable if 2 opposing parties unite to attack someone.
  • Joint faction points of the faction.
  • Better rewards or recorded achievements for PVP to make it worthwhile.
  • Plunder enemies, e.g. dapper, faction points, unsecured items, with plunder window so you can choose.
  • Due to the low player base, factions are reduced to a maximum of 2-3. The third one is a Kitin faction. Religion, Hominists, Kitin. Mara and Ranger, as well as Kami and Karavan will remain, but will each get a faction chat channel, for example.
  • This can be done by a new episode of the Lore: Fight against Kitins; new hominid Kitins who are rebels of the Kitin Queen; these new ones ally themselves with the Homins in a final fight, but betray the Homins after the fight.
  • Global Faction PvP - Claiming Territories For Your Faction

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Heernis (4 weeks ago)

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#115 [en] 

Plunder enemies!! What!? ... and that in combination with forcible random assignment of non-pvp desiring player characters! <-- a sure fire way to so incense the victims as to make likely their leaving the game forever ... even if subscribed! .... I can not emphasize enough that that must affront the victim of such robbery. 8! Just imagine too the frustration and indignation of a not in pvp interested player, whose inventory be searched after an unporvoked not welcomed randomly assigned pvp combat, in itself an affront, who then also gets thus robbed of a specially crafted weapon, armor or what have you, the which had cost much effort and or dappers and or mats to finally obtain.

I can even imagine that even pvp enthusiasts would not appreciate such pillaging and that feuds very peraonally felt and perpetually revenged could ensue. PLundering.... no please. no plundering of players ever.. imho ... should such ever occur then only as punischable exploit.
Heernis
Since the discussion is over here and nothing more comes, I try to summarize:
[list][...].[*]Plunder enemies, e.g. dapper, faction points, unsecured items, with plunder window so you can choose.[...]

#116 [en] 

Trytrytry
Plunder enemies!! What!? ... and that in combination with forcible random assignment of non-pvp desiring player characters!

Thats not true. I guess you only read the summery, right?
This is the PVP tag:

OFF

ON


In PVP Areas it is called Guild-PVP. So it have nothing to do with Factional PVP. Plundering in that case would only work if and really if you turn on the factional PVP.

The case is to satisfy PVE-Players and PVP-Players. If plundering will satisfy PVP-Players, PVE-Player with no factional PVP Tag on wont have any consequences even in PVP areas. Got it?
Also again: Players within -25/+25 Fame on faction even if aligned, cant do any factional PVP (PVP is locked). Thats the idea. Also there should be a big red information about this, so every Player understand, what they are doing. So only within this PVP-tag mode it would work.

Last edited by Heernis (4 weeks ago)

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#117 [en] 

@Heernis ... aha! Capture the Flag! Now ( i guess) i get your meaning ;)

Okay, that is no problem at all. If that is what is essentially meant, well, no problem then. I suppose that in that sense the idea could indeed prove to be a potentially attractive (for some) addition to the ryzoom game. 8)

I hope that such be in fact intended within the context of the suggestion. And I sincerely hope, that the standard setting be and remain .... not desired / not allowed and that agreement to such trophy handover be necessarily have to be explicitly given for individual encounters.

Instead of 'plundering' there would then rather be a handing over of the in advance agreed upon trophy in the aftermath of and in consequence of the such agreed upon inter-fractional pvp contest.

Searching through the fallen pvp opponent's inventory would then be unnecessary and imho should not become part of the game.

#118 [en] 

Trytrytry
@Heernis ... aha! Capture the Flag! Now ( i guess) i get your meaning ;)

https://ryzomcore.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/RC/pages/5013521/Crea ting+Spires

Last edited by Sinvaders (4 weeks ago)

#119 [en] 

Sinvaders
Trytrytry
@Heernis ... aha! Capture the Flag! Now ( i guess) i get your meaning ;)

https://ryzomcore.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/RC/pages/5013521/Crea ting+Spires

Thanks... added it to summery.

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