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 Discussion around "Outpost Refactoring" - DISCUSSIONS AROUND ONGOING PROJECTS - Ryzom Community ForumHomeGuest

DISCUSSIONS AROUND ONGOING PROJECTS


Do you agree with the four proposals detailed in this first post? / Approuvez-vous les quatre propositions présentées dans ce premier post ?
I agree with proposal 1. / J'approuve la proposition 1. 21 (1)
9.2%
I disagree with proposal 1. / Je désapprouve la proposition 1. 29 (4)
12.7%
I agree with proposal 2. / J'approuve la proposition 2. 50 (5)
21.8%
I disagree with proposal 2. / Je désapprouve la proposition 2. 8 (1)
3.5%
I agree with proposal 3. / J'approuve la proposition 3. 49 (6)
21.4%
I disagree with proposal 3. / Je désapprouve la proposition 3. 8
3.5%
I agree with proposal 4. / J'approuve la proposition 4. 53 (5)
23.1%
I disagree with proposal 4. / Je désapprouve la proposition 4. 7
3.1%
Other 4
1.7%
Abstain 4
Poll is closed
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#16 Report | Quote[en] 

Elvanae got a very good point about the distance factor. Westgrove (tekorn 250) OP comes in mind as yet another example. Considering rezzing at the TP, healing everyone up, waiting for the stragglers and running back to the OP - in case of 1 hour length of battles at some Outposts, the very first wipe means the battle is over for you. You simply won't have enough time to do all that and win 5-7 rounds to trigger 2nd phase/win the OP/whatever.

Outposts is the content that is promoted as the end game type, involving lots of players, encouraging them to consolidate and cooperate together, collecting gear, doing diplomatic talk when needed. For this kind of content the 1 hour duration is too short. Run from a TP, 15 minutes of action, wipe, rez, "We are done". Why? "No time for another try, sorry". Verrry entertaining.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Kimmerin (1 month ago)

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"People let the same problem make them miserable for years when they could just say "So what". That's one of my favorite things to say. "So what". - Andy Warhol.

#17 Report | Quote[en] 

@Elvanae: The mechanics of OP battles are very much a part of the existing discontent. I know for sure I am not the only one who isn't happy at all to commit 4 hours of my life, during which I am a pawn listening to the battle leader (so, most of the time pressing a couple of buttons to heal/nuke).

Look in each and every guild that includes newcomers, you will see people making up excuses as to why they can't participate ... when the real reason is the time commitment and the sheer boring mechanics of participating. Count the people at any war, at least half are in the heal pod. They are wasting two hours of their life pressing a few buttons and maybe moving around. Not entertaining.

You raise a good point about attacks hanging on a single wipe if the timer is shortened. True. BUT that should be compensated by lower costs and lack of phase 2. It's easier to tempt people to come, if they know there's a real chance at victory ... obtained in a very short timeframe.

And should the attackers fail, they can still attack 3 more times before they've wasted the same amount of time as they would have on the old system (2 hours atk + 2 hours def).

@Dev team:

Reading this topic, I have 3 meta-observations to make:

1. Don't listen entirely to the existing player base. It sounds rude, but the entire point of changing things is to make them more palatable for those who are yet to come. If a change alienates 5 old-timers and makes 30 newcomers stay a long time because they are more interested in the game .. it's a "win" in my book.

2. Always consider the "fun" factor for everyone involved, including the low level players. As I was telling Elvanae above, I have seen countless times people that get bored of wars because they're relegated to heal pawns. Think of ways to make the experience more intense|fun|interesting. That's the ultimate goal

3. Proposal: Maybe you could do a trial run, and change the mechanics for only some of the outposts. Leave the difficult ones (Westgrove, Loria) on a 2-hour timer, but change half of the others. See where people will prefer to do battle ;)

Edited 4 times | Last edited by Laoviel (1 month ago)

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#18 Report | Quote[en] 

Laoviel
... I am a pawn listening to the battle leader (so, most of the time pressing a couple of buttons to heal/nuke).

...at least half are in the heal pod. They are wasting two hours of their life pressing a few buttons and maybe moving around. Not entertaining.

You're not required to stand in a pod the whole time or use pods at all, and that also often fails. Regardless of the battle duration, some players still haven't put the time into practicing PVP combat.

Last edited by Placio (1 month ago)

#19 Report | Quote[en] 

As someone who resembles a heal pawn, I find OP wars fun and very entertaining. Not only is there the tension of whether or not my side will win, but being an effective healer during OP is more challenging than regular team PvE.

As for the time, I initially didn't really care but after reading the comments feel that 1 hour is too short in most cases. Maybe compromise with 1 1/2 hours?

Another thought that crossed my mind was adding a Surrender button. The only times I've found OP boring was when one side gives up really early but we have to stay just in case they come back. If the attacker (phase 1) or defender (phase 2) could surrender, that would end it early in the cases where it should be shorter. The side surrendering would then automatically lose all remaining rounds. Having a surrender button for both sides might also be useful if a guild wants to just hand over the OP to another guild.

Just 2 more of my dapper :)

#20 Report | Quote[en] 

I like the idea of the "surrender button" provided it has enough safeguards to prevent accidental triggering. It would have to be limited to GL of the attacking or defending guild. (Your GL can't make it? Have her appoint one of the HOs as temporary GL. If you can't count on the HO to hand it back, then he shouldn't be an HO.)

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#21 Report | Quote[en] 

Kimmerin
I personally dislike the 1 hour battles idea. As we all know, there is a common tactic of declaring at sh... *cough* uncomfortable hours for your opponents. While it’s surely annoying, this is a valid tactic. The only counter to this tactic, as of now, is 2-hours length of battles.

People tend to be busy IRL, not everyone can log in game before a battle starts. But they can do it during 2 hours of active phase. I’ve seen many battles in which things initially went south for one of the sides, but then this side gathered enough players during first 8-12 rounds to turn the tables and actually win the battle.

2 hours length:

- allows more players participate in battles;
- gives a chance for the side, outnumbered from the start, to win or at least to put up a fight;
- partially counters attacks at “bad” times

1 hour length:

- too fast-paced, leaves more players out;
- allows more abuse of “let’s attack at 5 a. m. in their timezone” tactic.

I might agree with you if I lived in a country that only had 1 or 2 times zones, and/or any of them were even close to CET where a fair number of Ryzom players live. But unless we make them long enough to get both coasts of the US involved on any day other than Saturday, I don't think 1 hour battles are any worse than 2 hour ones.

That said, even the 2-hour battles pretty much make OP battle and EU-only thing much of the time, and anything convenient for one coast of the US will have the other coast either still at work/school or getting ready for bed. So how about if we go the other way and make OP battles more of a siege; something long enough that all time zones have a chance to get in on, and the time zone shenanigans that currently happen just can't happen.

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#22 Report | Quote[en] 

Laoviel
@Elvanae: The mechanics of OP battles are very much a part of the existing discontent.
...
during which I am a pawn listening to the battle leader (so, most of the time pressing a couple of buttons to heal/nuke).

You appear to be describing issues that better relate to the battle 'tactics' that are currently being utilised at OP wars and your role in said battles rather than the battle 'mechanics' as the issue. In respect of the former, these factors are determined by the player base and you as an individual.

Naturally, battle leaders will seek to use players in the most efficient way and by directing them to the role they are best suited to. In Ryzom battles, I'd say there are probably about 4 main roles but I have added a 5th as I feel it has become a more popular role -
1. Tank - moves away from their heal pod to get close to the enemy heal pod. Requires a lot of upkeep due to this and especially when they are out of radar of their own healers. To be an effective tank you need a dedicated healer, good pvp jools, good gear and a wide variety of melee skills. This rules out new players as tanks in most battles.
2.Nuker - Can be part of the heal pod and can attack enemy tanks that are close enough. However, nukers are pretty inefficient for DPS as most players equip pvp jools so unless you are especially skilled at nuking and have necessary tools like Cheng amps and know how to use them effectively then you will just be draining your stats and soaking up heals.
3.Launcher - by far one of the best DPS in the game and extremely effective in OP wars but it is a difficult skill to level and requires a lot of prep before battle including the multiple levelling of crafting and digging and organising of mount/packers and inventory space. Not very easy for a new player.
4.Healer - anyone can heal and any heals, no matter how small, are useful. There are more advanced forms of healing ofc...
5. Multi-tasker - a player who is able to melee/nuke/heal as required. Multi-master relying on other multi-master-multi-taskers (lol theres a mouthful) who can be self-sufficient. I'd say this is probably more of an end-game role.

The point I am trying to make is that chances are, even if you are a master melee or master nuker you will probably still be best utilised as a healer in an OP war. That's really just how it is... We've all been the noob at the battle healing and most of us have also been multi-masters healing in the heal pod - it really is one of the most effective roles short of being a multi-tasker in a self-sufficient team. So, If you want to change this I can think of two ways:-
1. Train skills. Train pvp. Get better gear. Become a formidable tank or a master launcher... or a pvper who can do all 4 roles!
2. To change the actual mechanics of OP battles, you are then looking at something like... adding objectives to wars that any player can complete such as capture points. However, even with this suggestion, most players will still be best utilised as healers...
Laoviel
I know for sure I am not the only one who isn't happy at all to commit 4 hours of my life,

Regarding the duration of OP wars - 4 hours is too long. So:
1. Remove second phase and have one 2 hour long battle
2. Keep two phases but make the two battles 1 hour long each and create a custom respawn point for each OP to prevent losing out on wiped rounds lost
3.One battle lasting 1 hour with a custom respawn point for each OP

And, to link this back to tactics and player roles, I am struggling to see how reducing OP wars to 1 hour is going to change anything of what I have said above i.e. that most players will be best placed as a healer... or are you saying that 2 hours per battle of spamming heal in a heal pod is boring but one hour isnt?
Laoviel
1. Don't listen entirely to the existing player base. It sounds rude, but the entire point of changing things is to make them more palatable for those who are yet to come. If a change alienates 5 old-timers and makes 30 newcomers stay a long time because they are more interested in the game .. it's a "win" in my book.

I disagree. You can find yourself reaching 'end game' in Ryzom quicker than you think and typically the only reason you continue to play is because of the playerbase as there is not much 'end game' content. I think all the player base should be listened to and I would say probably more to the existing player base because I cant see many new players wanting to stick around in a zombie guild having convos in a zombie uni chat.

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#23 Report | Quote[en] 

Years ago (pre-merger) we spoke about making changes to the way OP's and War used to be conducted, not because of any one faction controlling but because we felt that low-level OP needed more value. Mat rotation discussion is nothing new and actually eliminating some were discussed as well. If we can eliminate guilds from receiving Catalyzers (which is how I accomplished all of my masters pre-merger), then we can eliminate useless OP mats and bring some value to owning one.

The time-zone for OP wars will always be an issue regardless of change or not but, 1 phase to settle everything with a 2hr time limit, would be ideal in my opinion. I have taken OP during times when guilds were at work or sleeping because of where I live and that is called - life and then they were taken back from me in the same manner - that is part of life but people fail to realize that this is just a game and not real-life...

With regards to the declaration cost and drill grace-period, here are my thoughts, which once you read, you will think that I am crazy but if you seriously think about it, it does make sense. Lvl 250 OP war declaration cost should increase to 32M dappers, this will make some toons think twice and possibly encourage smaller guilds to merge and create a real sense of balance (or at the very least, a start to). Also, the cost of the drill should increase to 64M dappers for x1 speed and 128M dappers for x2 speed and if the dev-team is feeling generous, give us x4 speed for 512M dappers. I believe that by doing this, guilds will also have to take seriously the value of the OP Mat itself and possibly, as I previously mentioned, create larger guilds because the cost alone will require team-work. The grace period should be at least 90 days from the time the drill is dropped, this way, the guild can enjoy some of the benefits for all the dappers spent.

Parting shot: Life is simple, unpredictable and beautiful but always remember that even though something ends, something new begins, so take a deep breath and move on.

PS, let the criticism begin because most are really good at that and not anything constructive....
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