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#1 Report | Quote[en] 

Hello Atys, there is something that has been bothering me over the past 2 weeks and I now have finally been able to sit down and write it. I am certain that what I am about to say will draw some ire from toons but I have never cared what others think of me anyway so too bad (some toons may even focus on this single line because their brains are too narrow).

There are a few toons who have told me just as an FYI not complaining (one of the toons I was helping about 3 weeks ago because I needed some choice fiber and she knew the location), that they were digging in PR regions and that others thought it was a good idea to just kill them, “just because” attitude. Now, the 2 factions that these toons are in (Kami and Marauder) and the factions that killed them (Kami and Ranger), if you feel that being a lvl 250 killing a lvl 35 yubo from Yrk is your idea of being tough and power, then Atys is in trouble. Toons who are digging, you know well are in gear that is designed for digging and not defense. Now, some of you are going to whine and criticize me, telling me that the game mechanics allow for such BS behavior but if you honestly want a “real challenge” then duel toons who are equipped for that task (there is on a daily basis, toons asking in uni if anyone wants to PVP), not one who is digging just for simple choice/excellent mats (yes, not even during SN time).

I know that I am going to sound like the old “get off my lawn” guy, but back on the old English server before the merger, we had a few unwritten rules and one of them was never kill a digger, either by direct attack or argo-drag and rarely did we even attack during SN dig-time. I am certain that it may have happened (I do not know everything that happened or happens) but extremely rare and we spoke about issues of bad behavior. I cannot go back to the past, as much as I would like, but the current life-cycle of Atys is scattered and weakened by insanely crazy toons taking RP way to serious. It is after all “just a game” and if your lives are so meaningless in the RL that you have to try and be a “macho-man” in a game, then I truly feel sorry for your existence.

This is just my 2-cents….

Later, Zatarga

PS, I have said my peace, so if anyone actually comments, I will not be following my own post (I see no purpose in doing so).

#2 Report | Quote[en] 

Zatarga
[...] the factions that killed them (... and Ranger), [...]


did I read that correctly? Are you saying a Ranger killed an other homin other than in self defense?

If it is true, name the Ranger.

Last edited by Nudge (2 weeks ago)

#3 Report | Quote[en] 

An enemy is an enemy, whether he is carrying a pickaxe or a sword. Some would say that those who kill defenceless men have little honor, while it does not pose any problem to hunt poor and weak herbivores ... In the same way, digging hurts Atys. So yes, Atys is a dangerous, violent and painful world. A world at war. And the war is dirty. Next time, I think this digger should be accompanied by bodyguards. Courage to him.

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Ki'gan, dit le Dévoreur d'Espoir. Revenu d'exil en petits morceaux.

#4 Report | Quote[en] 

I think a lot of the issue here is that certain folks have a far different idea of how things are done. Some feel an RPG is a Role-playing GAME while others see them as a ROLE-PLAYING!!!!1111 "game". This wasn't really an issue pre-Merge since there was less mixing of the cultures, so each server was populated with those who were more clustered along that spectrum. However, post-Merge, we have a wider range of views. Wide enough to cause a lot of conflict simply because some folks cannot accept that not all of us are high-theatre types who feel anything less than 250% immersion is heresy.

In a more meta sense, a lot of us who are in the first group come here from other games that are full of that sort of behavior. I get it. There are folks who are frustrated that RL doesn't allow them to be a bloodthirsty tyrant so they play games and go seal-clubbing to scratch that "exploit the weak and wallow in their misery" itch. There's plenty of other games that cater specifically to them though, as well as a number of Atysians seeking some good, clean PvP action, so they don't need to prey on the defenseless. They do so simply because they are sociopaths. RL has international treaties such as the Geneva Convention banning the targeting of civilians just as most civilizations have long had laws against wanton murder, and maybe it's time Ryzom did the same.

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#5 Report | Quote[en] 

Gidget
RL has international treaties such as the Geneva Convention banning the targeting of civilians just as most civilizations have long had laws against wanton murder, and maybe it's time Ryzom did the same.

The Geneva Convention has not eyes everywhere, and Lands of Umbra (+ the Nexus) were the only war areas of the game. Do you think civilians are not targeted in Syria ..? Sad comparison, I know. I do not want to shock anyone, but it's the reality of Atys. And i would talk as well about the Matis Army which had eradicated Monos following orders of Jinovitch, the slavery of Trykers, the tyranny of the Karavan, the Kamis which eat homins, the tribes which sell drugs, and the carnages orchestrated by the kitins. Logically, all Atys, except cities, would be dangerous areas. And it's not the case.

That said, i love the idea of Atys Convention, formalized by Event Team and carried by players ! A RP policy entity, whose duty is to protect the homin kind ! But ... wait. It already exist, no ? This is not the job of the Rangers ?

For some homins, marauders are terrorists. So be the Blue Helmets, or even better, the kind American Army ! Yes, you can ! Be the heroes of your world ! If the project is set up and the RP is good, I would be interested to play with you.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Kigan (1 week ago)

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Ki'gan, dit le Dévoreur d'Espoir. Revenu d'exil en petits morceaux.

#6 Report | Quote[en] 

There are some Rangers who feel that any Ranger who even thinks of using a weapon against a fellow homin is commuting the worst sin imaginable; going against their version of lore and thus not being 5,000% correct and proper RP. Others have no RP-related aversion, merely a personal distaste for it. So I don't see Ranger intervention happening without causing/widening a schism within that small faction.Personally, I wouldn't mind if it were an occasional thing done as opportunity arose or was mostly targeted against those who are hunting bosses/nameds, but the fact that there are groups out there who do little else except patrol PR in force for the sole purpose of ruining other people's day is part of why I'm less of a fan of PvP than I used to be. I'm simply not that much of a sociopath, and would rather not be lumped in with those who are.

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#7 Report | Quote[en] 

RL is real-life; and a Online Game is an Online game.

Killing diggers in PR is allowed by the CoC;

calling people socio-paths is not.

Moral relativism is a thing; morality is culture based; whatever your views and arguments you want to employ to justify your view of RL or in this a game; are just that; yours.

Last edited by Northstar (1 week ago)

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#8 Report | Quote[en] 

@Gidget, no offense here but you seem ( to me ) to confuse RL and IG.. maybe there is something to dig for you about this.

They are staying polite, and talking fairly on the subject.. unlike you.

I do read a lot about your opinion a bit everywhere on the forum, and ( sadly ) it is most of the time overly rude when it come on the PvP subject.
Or anything related to it, like Roleplaying.

( Probably due to a trauma or a very bad experience that didn't make you sleep well at night, for a few months.. really i do not know; nor want to. )

So take Ryzom.com, the game you love so much.
In "features" ok?

"Consensual PvP" section:



You can fight everywhere, but only when you wish to do so. Duels, outposts battles, faction or region fights... You are free to engage in them... or abstain!

If you dont like to be engaged freely in a player versus player game, you abstain to come in the area engaging player versus player.. simply.

There is no need to complain about anything here, yeah.. really.. crazy right?

When you enter a PvP zone, whatever faction you are; or race; or religion; or clan; or guild; or gender IG, you are warned that you are now attackable by everyone that wish to do so.

And yes, even if you are a digger.

Digger are the most dangerous people in a time of war on Ryzom, or in a casual Faction vs Faction game ( like the game mean to be.. btw. )

Digger do deplete important and precious ressource, that will be used to craft efficient weapons or armors.
And fighter do not fight naked.

Now do the math, and understand why a digger is kill on sight.
( if its not to hard for you ofc, otherwise i forgive you personaly, no biggy ).

But i did notice one point in all your non sense, misbelieves and RL/IG confusion you like to spread ( or seem to ).
Its that yes, now the game need to deal with a mixed culture and community.

But its been years now, guess its time to adapt.
No need ticket or complain about PvP in a PvP zone, no need to be a genius to understand that.

Sidenote:
( No copyright intented on the picture ofc, you can reuse it as you wish, with a lot of salt;
Its probably draw by a baby unicorn.. maybe not; but its at the level of this thread, this is what we call: adapation. )

#9 Report | Quote[en] 

I would say even more: On like.... Every PvP subject we have on Forum, at least, one people are talking about IRL stuff, but... As it was said ( a lot? ) WE-ARE-NOT-ON-RL. AND no, it's not because we enjoy to PvP that our life is pathetic, we are socio-path or idk what you'll tell again.

But, having a judgment like you just did can be taking as harrassment, what is not allowed by the CoC, so, you are welcome to think about what you post next time otherwise, maybe the Hammer God will be called. You gonna get Dracarys and qq even more, trust me.

AND: Valar Morghulis.

#10 Report | Quote[en] 

@Kigan:
WRT the idea that the Rangers are there to enforce peaceful behavior, nothing could be further from the truth.

The Rangers were formed to combat the Kitins, and to a lesser extent, the Goo. Anything that divides hominity reduces our strength against the real enemies. However, as Wuaoi pointed out several times, the Rangers as an organization only intervene with diplomacy at the National level, the quarrels of individuals are their own business.

@Mithian:
Being judgemental is not the same as harassment.
Gidget did not say that PvP, per se, was sociopathic, but that deliberately and continually picking on those who could not defend themselves in PvP (i.e those in digger gear) was. I would have said "being an ass," but I try to be moderate in my words.

@Revvy:
It is not fully consensual, in my opinion, if certain regions that one would normally go in quest of the improvement of their skills are declared to be inherently PvP. That is a matter for the game designers, however, not debate here.

If I recally correctly, however, the sparking instance for this thread was an attack on a digger on the surface, near the capital taking advantage of the cooldown time for PvP. Notwithstanding that the cooldown time is built into the gameplay, that strikes me as contrary to the intent of "consensual PvP."

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 13 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#11 Report | Quote[en] 

Bitttymacod
@Kigan:
WRT the idea that the Rangers are there to enforce peaceful behavior, nothing could be further from the truth.

The Rangers were formed to combat the Kitins, and to a lesser extent, the Goo. Anything that divides hominity reduces our strength against the real enemies. However, as Wuaoi pointed out several times, the Rangers as an organization only intervene with diplomacy at the National level, the quarrels of individuals are their own business

Yes, it's true that kitins are the main threat according to the point of view of Rangers. And concretely, this is true : hominity suffered of two bloodly swarn !

So yes, forget the Rangers. Sorry for talking about them. Now, who wants to play the role of the heroic soldiers who track terrorists everywhere on Atys ? I think it's missing. What is a villain without his bright nemesis ? :-(

Last edited by Kigan (1 week ago)

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Ki'gan, dit le Dévoreur d'Espoir. Revenu d'exil en petits morceaux.

#12 Report | Quote[en] 

Bitttymacod
@Revvy:
It is not fully consensual, in my opinion, if certain regions that one would normally go in quest of the improvement of their skills are declared to be inherently PvP. That is a matter for the game designers, however, not debate here.

Well it is consensual, when you enter a dangerous zone where combat is possible, you accept the fact that you can be attacked, RP or not.
And im sad to read even somes GMs think differently ( most of the time the american/uk GMs ), so guess its a matter of culture, or alliance ?

When you start the game there a button, I accept the terms.
It is same when you enter a PvP zone, without the button obviously, for a gameplay smoothness matter, you are allowed to play there but beware you can be attacked.. or abstain you are free to step back.
This is, consensuality.

( It is the same as accepting a Duel with an opponent or a friend )

However, the PvP lately ( a year? maybe more? ) start to feel like a MOBA game, mean that there is no RP or any scenario that start a combat or terminate it.
It is fight just to fight, for the action; without building RP or history behind.
Maybe because Ryzom is missing PvP actions, so people that like to play Player versus Player do not have the patience anymore and just want some fun; compared to others time on server ( Aniro? )

The dying of RP and the direction of the game that value OOC more than RP, could be the reason too, something to dig here once again.
Bitttymacod
If I recally correctly, however, the sparking instance for this thread was an attack on a digger on the surface, near the capital taking advantage of the cooldown time for PvP. Notwithstanding that the cooldown time is built into the gameplay, that strikes me as contrary to the intent of "consensual PvP."

Hum.. not really, you are confusing thread right now, i invite you to re-read the Zatarga post.
Taking advantage of the cooldown PvP in surface is another subject, and its a matter of gameplay.
Most of the people that complain about it, they just dont know how to read information that the game send you ( the red message saying that you are still attackable for 120s ).

Last edited by Revvy (1 week ago)

#13 Report | Quote[en] 

Revvy
And im sad to read even somes GMs think differently ( most of the time the american/uk GMs ), so guess its a matter of culture, or alliance?

Yes, it is a matter of culture. Atys is not Aniro. Since Merge, you now share a server with people who don't play the way you do. And to give you a little perspective on how much conflict those differences can cause, what some call RP-ing is what others call bullying in pretty much the same way as my attempts at having a conversation are getting called rude and harassing.

If you think I've been rude or violating CoC for harassing people then you should do a little introspection and think about the fact that YOUR actions are perceived the same way. It seems I struck a nerve with you (anda few other folks). Now think about how many times you've done that to others over the years then ask why it's okay for you to act out but others can't.

Revvy
However, the PvP lately ( a year? maybe more? ) start to feel like a MOBA game, mean that there is no RP or any scenario that start a combat or terminate it.It is fight just to fight, for the action; without building RP or history behind.
Maybe because Ryzom is missing PvP actions, so people that like to play Player versus Player do not have the patience anymore and just want some fun; compared to others time on server ( Aniro? )

I get that. However, I would like you to understand that even among those who RP as seriously as you do, there are those who would never take up arms against another homin. It is possible to RP without PvP. In a similar vein, you may have noticed that there is a bit less open violence than there used to be a few hundred years ago.

Societies evolve. That's just as true on Atys as it is on Earth. And since each homin on Atys is connected to a human on Earth, it isn't really a surprise that the path of one world follows the other. While the past may have been full of folks who accepted being the tareget of violence as the price one pays for being alive, the present is not the past.

That said, my opinion is quite different when it comes to fighting over limited resources; namely Sups, OP mats, and bosses. If there were an area that had those but no "common as dirt" mats to dig then I might actually buy into your "Diggers are the enemy" rant from earlier. While I don't feel that someone should risk death merely for wanting black/white armor instead of red/blue, I feel that resources that actually provide some sort of strategic advantage are a different matter.

I also wouldnt mind seeing a few more tournaments (offical and unofficial) so that those who miss their old lives of warfare can still use the martial skills they worked so hard to perfect against opponents that can match tem for cunning and skill. I don't think PvP is inherently bad, merely that a fair number of PvP-ers are a bit anti-social about their choice of targets. And if you take a small step OOC and into the meta, you might realize how that can affect Ryzom as a whole.

At the end of the day, we do need to find a compromise. Something not too violently anarchic but not too care bear. Something that allows us all to do our thing. And no, making Atys into Aniro is not a good compromise.

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#14 Report | Quote[en] 

when game mechanics permit, "lawless" behaviour (removal of safe zones) there will invariably be those who use the rules to maximum and simply say, its within the rules. those people would in fact be "correct"

in terms of morality we can debate that all day but here's the thing... people can choose and you can also choose, not to go into pvp zones, without the expectation that perhaps some "less than honorable person" (in your personal opinion) WILL in fact kill you

now, there's also a roleplaying and a "game" way to deal with this
the "victim" can have a large group, a network of friends, people can choose to black-list people who dont live up to their moral standard

so lets say you have an op battle... well you can support, and not-support who you want. you can deal with the people aspect and rally support, or not. this is all within the roleplay and the game itself

luckily nothing terribly valuable is in pvp zones that a low level player needs to be there for, so if i go to those zones i go knowing im there for valuables, i gear up accordingly, have people, or, i sneak and take my chances and expect to dig with a bag of good loot

atys is a place where some people choose to kill where it is allowed, and its not real life. luckily there isnt a large segment of my town that chooses to kill where it is allowed. id have to move or remove the people. same with the game. you either have to move, or deal with the people.

if its not enjoyable, spend time doing something else that is
life is short, enjoy it however you can

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