Give Rewards for Multi-Masters Part 1: Fight Skills - IDEAS FOR RYZOM - Ryzom Community ForumGuest

# IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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Dear all;

since we started the #ROAR movement; and to show that I haven't given up yet; here is the last remaining ideas that I NEED to see implemented in the game.

I am going to start with the Hot Topic that is on everyone's (or should be) minds; multi-masters that is.

I suggest making our efforts worth our time, aside from the joykiller completion-for-completion sake weak argument; by adding benefits to players who master skills in each respective tree.

I don't know the how's and why's behind coding; but I am sure if the benefits are passive; this will not be a big deal (granted the community agrees...Right...)

Give benefits (of the passive kind) to multi-masters. Keep in mind; all the proposed changes are of the Symmetric Kind; since Symmetry shows good design (be it in a scientific theory, game, skills or anyhting) so Symmetrical effects are what I propose.

My suggestions are: For every melee skill mastered give a number of HP (like 50 or something; the number is arbitrary but enter whatever makes sense); or increase parry number (again insert x numerical value) that is cumulative to every combat skill mastered.

Going with the HP increase that would mean that a master of all combat skills gains the not so game breaking (but enough to justify us mastering all combat skills to gain an advantage over someone that has 3 melee masters) : 15x50= 750 HP permanent HP.

Whether the pve community likes it or not (I really am at my wit's end with some of them) the fact of the matter is that A Master of all combat skills can lose (with all things being equal so skill is out of the equation) to a person with 1 melee mastered; giving they get the luck of the draw with the famous Madness bug; or they match up well gear wise.

Effectively: The proposed change does the following:

1) Gives us incentive to master all combat skills. With the added bonus of them actually counting for something.

2) Makes players and new masters experience when they realize the repetitive structure of the grind, that they will be rewarded with something meaningful in comparison to someone that has fewer mastered skills..

3) Will create a MUCH NEEDED equilibrium to the players that have devoted x amount of time doing y and the players having devoted x' amount of time doing y'.

4) WIll make multi-masters something that is prefered in PvE and PvP combat and with a reason; They should be the ones that are preferred simply because they have invested more time in something.(And that's again part of good design and balancing an MMORPG)

5) It will eliminate the OUTRAGEOUS phenomenon of all things being equal a master of all combats LOSING to a one master person...(And yes with the madness bug this happens A LOT).

6) It will make everyone actually strive to gain something from the grind; instead of the grind itself.

As I said; the amount of HP is an arbitrary value; just something that is not too few as to make it meaningless; and not that much as to make it OP.

But all things considered; I sure as hell believe that a master of all combat skills should any day of the week have the advantage in all content over someone with fewer masters... So; Just give us a measly HP increase; give us something to work with and not feel frustrated.

Hope you will support this idea and if you don't; please dont give the same old null arguments...Be contstructive or don't post at all.

Yours,

Star.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Northstar (8 months ago)

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I like the idea, but... To be honst, it's like the minimum we can get... I mean, yeah, why not... But that's not what would make people come back and restart grinding.

We need more challenge.

For example: Getting like a raid where you can find different bosses.

( Imagine a map like Dante one, you have some mobs waves, and when you reach the final boss, you have to kill it to drop special material what you can only find there )

We can also imagine it can change.

Idk, sometimes Yubo, sometimes Bodocs, sometimes Kinrey etc...

It's totally random, so, you can get Yubo twice or got it like every 3 mounths.

This system would ask a weekly restart and maybe involve more than one team ( so, basically, a league )
This post is doing echo to your, in a few ways
https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/189753

On the subject, i totally agree with you, and wish to see this implemented.

Grind for grind, 10€ for that? noway.
Copy/Paste from the wonderful presentation by Revvy on the issues from another thread:

"Tis very a little narrow-minded though, but I cannot blame you for that.
If we do expand the choice of decision (and therefore the information available) at hand,
at the same time, we are expanding tactical and strategic opportunities.
Whether by integrating new data, by analysing them; a ways out, and new choices/decision are
available to us, wich is no less called, strategic.
We are human after all, we can do this.

Of course, it adds depth to a system.. far too easy today.
So by changing this, it will certainly become more difficult, but much more interesting!
And maybe people will play to achieve (and be proud of doing it) a real goal, a real mastery of combat;
Without necessarily relying on RNG ( a roll of dice ).

Take the Quake Series, from Id Software; the gameplay is pretty basic in its core
but timing objects and items (like armor or weapons) by head, gives a whole tactical meaning and interest to the game.

Take the DarkSouls Series, fromSoftware; there is a gameplay based on muscle reflex,
parries based on knowledge of the weapon and its timing, and a prediction of movement.
This obviously requires a perfect mastery of the game, and a lot of practice
it also, allows the game to be really intense to play.

This is what we will call: " Skill " ( cf: a gameplay based on skill )
A gameplay based on skill, is a bottomless well of knowledge, you are never done learning and improving.

For me, timing an opponent's aura's; knowing how - and when to use ours,
guessing the last few seconds left on a PowerUps is a very interesting idea.
Wich would make the fightning system even more exciting, and obviously; tactical.

The Pvp on Ryzom is simply a control of resources, praying the RNG dice.
The jewels are not well exploited, and made useless because of a very low level affliction bug;
It also means, that a player with a single mastered skill can beat anyone in the game.
Where is the logic in all this?

Simply, there is no (aka 0, nada, nothing..) skill in the combat system on Ryzom actualy.
You do not aim, you do not learn, you cannot improve yourself infinitely to be the best, or outclass other players.
And the worst;
Is that you cannot achieve the satisfaction of a quest for improvement/inspection/analysis of yourself.
In order to perfectly master an Art, seeking self perfection over the top.

As you can see in other games for example, more.. hmm lets say.. competitive.

Since you cannot do this, you cannot "beat" fighters in Pvp either.
You cannot reach a high threshold through effort and talent, since everyone is equal.
( and that, no matter how many masters you get or how many natural talents/training you do have )

So you will lose 2v1, 3v1 or 4v1 situation, because there is no skill, neither in survival, nor in mastery.
The game is based on an extra number of players to win, and piped dice rolls (RNG/bug).

Basicaly the game restrict yourself.

And that's Ryzom problem, and even in Pve situation.
You finish your game by grinding all your levels for nothing, just for the grind.
Because the game doesn't give you rewards or a goal to be multi-master (and it's even more obvious in Pvp).

But, let us bring the subject back to its source there;

Being able to alter some powerups (aura) when you are under active Pvp flag is a good idea.
And can lead to a lot of gameplay exploitation, interesting strategies, calculations and prediction in combat.

Also;

Drawing a line between the Pve and the Pvp, is not a bad idea at all.
It could even allow the excellent combat system, and the game's mechanisms to be fully exploited and focused.
Competitive, and catchy for players."

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Speaking as a person who has some significant skill at a real-life martial art -- On any given day a new fighter can kill a master. It's a matter of luck and timing.

A person who has mastered one weapons form will be better at that weapons form than a person who has mastered several because he/she practices that one every day, while the generalist has only time to practice that one every few days.

So I am not impressed by your statement: "5) It will eliminate the OUTRAGEOUS phenomenon of all things being equal a master of all combats LOSING to a one master person...(And yes with the madness bug this happens A LOT)."  That outrageous phenomenon mimics real life.

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>
Think different.

Think in term of gameplay, and the effort we put to grind outrageous numbers of levels to 250.

I can understand your point, and agree partialy with it.
But that came from someone that did "click" neutral on their on OP.
I do not attack you personaly, but, i do not think you are doing any PvP or are seeking a good combats system / gameplay.

So let RL where it should be, this is IG, this is a video game.
Also we want to be rewarded for our effort, in time, ressource, and in money also.

Last edited by Revvy (7 months ago)

(nah, I will better shut up)

Last edited by Moniq (7 months ago) | Reason: removed message and being quiet

Revvy
Think different.

Think in term of gameplay, and the effort we put to grind outrageous numbers of levels to 250.

I can understand your point, and agree partialy with it.
But that came from someone that did "click" neutral on their on OP.
I do not attack you personaly, but, i do not think you are doing any PvP or are seeking a good combats system / gameplay.

So let RL where it should be, this is IG, this is a video game.
Also we want to be rewarded for our effort, in time, ressource, and in money also.

Ryzom is a game that has consistently mimiced certain parts of real life throughout its long history.  The fact that actions have consequences, that life is toil and pain but the world is beautiful, and for that matter, that stealth is a matter of player skill not a power.  it is one of the reasons that I have enjoyed it over the many years I've been playing. Another reason I enjoy the game is precisely that no toon can ever become "uber" no matter how many levels they grind to 250, they become as "uber" as they can by learning Atys, not just grinding levels.

At least you are honest when you say "...we want..." rather than Northstar's
"...it must...".  I think that you have failed to grok Atys, but that is a difference of opinion that I can live with.  I still would maintain that gameplay should allow a one-weapon master to beat a multi-weapon master if both their skills in that weapon are the same.  Experience in pike does not make you a better fighter with mace and shield.

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>
You have not actually stated any justification (good or bad) for giving a significant battle-winning advantage to someone who grinds multiple weapon skills up over someone who grinds just one.

You realize that what you are proposing could make it a requirement to multi-master to be competitive? The superior skill of a player who has played the game longer and mastered more skills should be the only advantage that player requires in one on one combat. Adding systemic advantages as well seems a bit unfair to the player who may be just as skilled but is only interested in one weapon, or perhaps has hours enough of free time only to level one up.

Surely the only justification can not be "Because it would make it feel worthwhile" for the multi-masters. If it did not feel worthwhile already, why did they do it?
It actually seems legit that a multi-master have more advantage vs a newbie player, no?

I mean, yeah, i can understand you want to focus on one weapon, but then.. Why not include a "point system" on your skill tree when it's mastered? What would at least give advantage. By using it or whatever. That way, it gonna be longer, but multi-master will get advantage if they work on more than one weapon.

The point is... How? How can you balance it? I have actually no idea.

But what i'm sure of, it's.. OFC a multi master need to be advantaged vs a 1 master and it's a non sense that's actually not.
Just saying, because have no more time to handle this useless debat so lets be clear and fast.
Since you dont seem to know PvP nor how it was made on the papers.

Do you guys realize they are already "setup against setup" in PvP?

And game was designed for each weapons to have advantage and disavantage against each weapons.

Its just because of bugs and a bad way to handle the fight system, that this "feature" -> in the core of the PvP gameplay, is useless.

So your stating is okay, can understand it, its even friendly, lets all be equals for a better world, but just no
Or, at the least, just a no in a meaning of competition.

( Wich is very important in a players versus players game )

Levels are here to be grind, for a reason (at least in PvP)
And a multimaster should have advantage in fight over a simple master.
Not because i want it, not because its magic; it was designed in this sense.

An example?
Affliction Offensive master should has advantage over a non affliction master with madness (wich is the more violent).

But this.. is false in the Atys of today, just because of gameplay bugs.

Each weapons/skill has an use, and setup has an advantage over another setup.

Take it has it is or not

Oh also, been interested in only one weapon and trying to be the best at it.... its awesome really..

But this dont work in Ryzom.
Its not a skill based game where you can work your way with the weapons until perfection, so, here all is said unfortunatly

Here some more details if you are interested about our/my opinion about it.
https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/189753
Thanks for the time to reply;

"the superior skill of a player who has played the game longer and mastered more skills should be the only advantage that player requires in one on one combat. Adding systemic advantages as well seems a bit unfair to the player who may be just as skilled but is only interested in one weapon, or perhaps has hours enough of free time only to level one up."

As me and others have stated in this thread and others; this does not exist in PvP and it exists in a very limited degree in PvE.

There is no skill in this game; aside from the fundamentals; and that's why we are promoting ideas like this all the time.

Everyone who has participated in mass 4v4.5v5 pvp knows this, and the 2v2 PvP tournament was a bona fida example of this;

it only comes down to who will make a mistake; who will miss an enchant etc. This; aside from the skill of being consistent I guess and not crumbling under pressure; eliminates any skill from the game itself.

In addition; why Multi-Masters are fundamentally being "cheated out" of their play time:

I explain: Whether you are a master of 2 weapons aimed at 2 different set-ups; say : counter-parry and counter-dodge or a master of all; by the game mechanics; it makes no difference.

It doesn't matter if you've master staff; 2h mace; one hand mace; 2h sword and a plethora of other weapons; you can do EXACTLY as well if you have mastered the core:

The concept of the core:

The core is a set of masters (melee combat in this example) that everyone needs; in order to participate in PvP content (with a reasonable chance of success) :

So the core would be the ignore armor weapons: pike+spear. A 2h weapon; either 2h axe or 2h mace to camp your opponent; and preferably something of the following: one hand axe; one hand sword+dagger; to counter dodge set ups.

Therefore out of the how many skills there are; with just 5; you are on exactky the same footing as someone with all. Thanks for playing.

Not to even mention that with the way protections in this game work; one handed weapons, excluding spear, are rendered even more redundant and utterly on the weak spectrum. (So the game mechanics themselves kill weapon diversity).

What was stated above also applies to pve situations; as long as u have a set of weapons that can match the appropriate pve content you are against; you dont really gain anyhting from mastering more..

Then again there are many who just use 2h sword and bleed vs slash resist for years on and years on; so I guess; we all get what we deserve.

"Surely the only justification can not be "Because it would make it feel worthwhile" for the multi-masters. If it did not feel worthwhile already, why did they do it?"

Because this is an MMORPG? And at MMORPGS we grind? And the purpose of these threads is for all of us to get incentive that rewards our grinding instead of not actually having to do anything more; because one lousy title isn't that big an accomplishment after all.

Star

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I would even say more.... Why don't we can use the skill points we get? Buy new action or more life for example? I didn't mastered all melee/range yet, but... i still have 15 415 points available in Fight, or 2638 points available in Magic what is U.S.E.L.E.S.S
Juikan
You have not actually stated any justification (good or bad) for giving a significant battle-winning advantage to someone who grinds multiple weapon skills up over someone who grinds just one.

You realize that what you are proposing could make it a requirement to multi-master to be competitive? The superior skill of a player who has played the game longer and mastered more skills should be the only advantage that player requires in one on one combat. Adding systemic advantages as well seems a bit unfair to the player who may be just as skilled but is only interested in one weapon, or perhaps has hours enough of free time only to level one up.

I think, you don't know the basics of the fight system. Because your statement is FALSE.
A multi-master in fight already has a big advantage against the one-master dude. Yeah, the multi-master can choose the right weapon to fight against the one-master ....

Apart from that, the main issue here is the randomness of the fight and bug use (enchant) which make my previous statment not entirely true (but it's supposed to work the way I say).

@Revvy I don't know why you keep answering to people who doesn't understand the purpose of this thread (same goes for you North's).

Last edited by Sinvaders (7 months ago)

TLDR; Assuming you are trying to make PvP better, and reward more skillful/committed players, a passive buff to players for doing something that isn't directly related to the fight they're having will only increase the barrier to entry into PvP, causing fewer players to do it.
Northstar

"Surely the only justification can not be "Because it would make it feel worthwhile" for the multi-masters. If it did not feel worthwhile already, why did they do it?"

Because this is an MMORPG? And at MMORPGS we grind? And the purpose of these threads is for all of us to get incentive that rewards our grinding instead of not actually having to do anything more; because one lousy title isn't that big an accomplishment after all.

Star

This is a bit like arguing that you've been breathing for your entire life, and you may as well get payed retroactively for all of those breaths because you've already put in the effort and no longer feel like it was worthwhile.

Do not misunderstand, I'm not in any way against a revamp of combat skills as they affect PvP, that might be a really healthy thing if the system is currently frustrating, and I guarantee you both know PvP far better than I do, but neither of you have actually explained why a multi-weapon master should have some artificial "bonus" against someone who has not done as much grinding. You just keep stating that they should because they should be better than a non multi-master. The question remains: Why should they be better?

If the only argument for this is "I worked hard to master all those skills, you should make me stronger than everyone else who hasn't done it" then I'm sorry, but that's a weak argument, because all it does is elevate the threshhold for what people have to do to be able to compete in PvP. What would follow when everyone who still wanted to PvP badly enough had become a multi-master and all had whatever the bonus was, and anyone else would simply stop playing (unless you think they'll keep fighting you but now you'll win instead of lose), which in the end hurts PvP overall.

If you want to reward PvP players for their time investment, wouldn't suggestions that increase the reward for skillful play be more useful to you than suggestions that increase the reward for *amount* of play?

Here is a parallel idea as an example: Would you approve of a passive bonus to players' HP based on how many hours they have spent logged in? All of the statements about weapon mastery can apply equally. You played longer, ground more, and it would make the player feel like their time was better spent, etc. But nevertheless, such a bonus would be pointless, because it does not incentivise the right things. That player should not reasonably be stronger than others on the basis of having been logged in for longer, and being logged in and playing the game should be intrinsically valuable because of the fun you're having in the game, just as mastering many weapon skills should be intrinsically valuable for the flexibility it gives you in a combat system which you state requires a "this vs that" approach. If it's not valuable in and of itself, you should not do it at all. If you want to do it anyway, that's on you.

I love your passion and enthusiasm, I'm just trying to help in fine tuning the discussion!
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