#16 [en] 

You just keep stating that they should because they should be better than a non multi-master. The question remains: Why should they be better?

I caught up on the Part 2 thread about foraging where this was addressed somewhat. You feel that more time should = more reward, and that currently it does not sufficiently do so. I think there may be better ways to reward players beyond the titles that do not necessarily have to un-hinge a non multi-master's ability to compete, but I am fairly certain none of them would be acceptable to you since un-hinging a non multi-master's ability to compete with you is your sole objective. We must agree to disagree, then.

I noticed you also addressed the "barrier to entry" point there by stating that, basically, you don't care if it's higher because you only particularly care about the veteran/committed players. But what happens when there are too few of you to get a good fight (as there are already fewer of you than you'd like?) No idea should be quashed or celebrated on the basis of "bringing in new players" because in a game as old as Ryzom, they are going to trickle in at best, but if you want to continue to have a viable game, and especially a viable competitive game, you really must be careful of how high you raise the time-investment bar for someone to be able to enjoy playing, or you'll wind up with noone to play with at all.

I apologize if I've gotten anyone's hackles up. My intention was only to be constructive and helpful, before I realized how heated the other half of this argument already got!

#17 [en] 

Hey again;

no need to apologize about anything:)

Okie so:

What I tried to explain in my reply to you earlier; with the concept of the core; and the concept of the set-ups; and how protections work; is that

the supposed advantages/disadvantages of weapons; in all their glorious diversity; do not actually exist. As I tried to show-case; of all the melee skills with the core 5; you actually can do most things and be succesful in the context of pvp play. The rest; do not give an actual benefit or advantage. And even in the context of niche situations; counter-arguments can exist for why it would still be preferable to stick to something else.

The questions that are implicit but will make them more explicit are the following:

a) Why bother with the rest? (Personally I bother because I love digging and crafting a lot and love having all my gear boosted; so the incentive comes from another desire of mine).

b) What happens in the context of time-invested/rewards here and also in the context of other games. (I will suggest Revvy's take on the issue which is very well stated and more into detail than i am willing to go into here; feeling a bit sick) (can be found on the other thread). Because at the end of the day; this is a precious question that needs to be adressed: Why invest full time here; and reap x benefits that better my character; translated into game-play benefits; and not spend my time there and reap y benefits that better my character in said ways.

c) This point is related to b). The answer that most people give is that because this is Atys; and we love Atys; or that Atys is about the journey and not the destination etc. Well yes; but that's not really an answer for competitive gamers.

d) The situation you describe; doesn't exist right now on Atys:) I wish it will at some point; I wish that problem is a problem that we would need to adress. But well; the PvP population of Atys is so minute that this discussion is better reserved for another day. And no; I don't believe; or at least no-one has argued for it; that this is the case because the entry to pvp is x or y; just people dont PvP.

e) The proposed changes have a much bigger picture in mind one which people fail to grasp. The current situation; that Ryzom PvP combat is based on numbers and not on individual skill; because as was stated skill doesn't exist in terms of something that can be cultivated after a point; is what actually makes OP and mass PvP pointless.

I belong to the "numbers" faction. The way the system works rn is that 35 people; including people with one master; no masters; just people in numbers; capable of pressing buttons; people who spend the entirety of their time on ryzom digging (which there is nothing wrong with that) (and if you add up alts that goes to the 50s in terms of numbers); are capable of decimating 25 people with at least half of them being spirits of war.

Not because they are better; but because they are more. It's a running joke directed vs my faction that Kamis only show up for OP fights; and take a look at the Outposts; almost all of them aside from one are kami owned or kami blessed.

So the problem with how the system works right now; is exemplified in the above simple but true paragraphs.

And also for some most unfortunate RL comparisons that some people made in this thread: I didn't see an army filled with peasants and farmers being able to emerge victorious and win a war vs an actual army in the history of the world..

Ryzom history has shown that this is the main reason OP fights have stopped being interesting; that people leave the game; that guilds in factions cease to exist; and at the very end that even RP dies; because Maros/Rangers/Karas are "forced" to work together to numerically overcome the odds.

The proposed changes also have this in mind. (and one could even go further to argue that this would actually reduce the employment of alts; make people grind their main more; or make them grind their alts; in all circumstances make people spend more time for something which is what anyone who promotes a subscription based game wants)

Finally to your new-comers idea and the rewards for skill-full play:

The implicit issue we are trying to adress: In Ryzom; the game which has the mechanics and potential to highlight player decision making and skill development; those two concepts actually do no exist in practice

Because there is no skill growth; everything is done in a specific way; and all that's left at the end of the day is: numbers will win; who gets the madness in will win. Very rarely individual skill will account for anything; because well: there is no room for its cultivation:)

So; in the absence of this; I proposed the changes in mind; as a way to balance the fundamentally imbalanced facticity of Atys. Since skill cannot be rewarded; because it cannot be cultivated; exemplified; or promoted; then accumulation of grinding-accomplishments is the next sensical thing to do; invested time. With this in mind; all the suggestions have been made.


Edited 4 times | Last edited by Northstar (2 years ago)


#18 [en] 

c) This point is related to b). The answer that most people give is that because this is Atys; and we love Atys; or that Atys is about the journey and not the destination etc. Well yes; but that's not really an answer for competitive gamers.
In my not-so-humble opinion, Ryzom has never been about "competitive" gamers, but rather "cooperative gamers." Attempts to force competition have generally failed (at least on Arispotle -- I can't speak for the other two servers).

The only reason that I can see for the proposed "goodies" is to make some toons more uber than others. As I stated before, the fact that in the end we are all equal once we have mastered things is (again IMNSHO) a feature to be cherished, not a bug to be cured. (The Fear bug -- that's a true bug, and should be fixed.)

And also for some most unfortunate RL comparisons that some people made in this thread: I didn't see an army filled with peasants and farmers being able to emerge victorious and win a war vs an actual army in the history of the world.
Actually if you have 100 desperate peasants who are skillful with bill-hooks and clubs, they will most certainly beat up twenty or forty knights. Peasant revolts are common in history. They generally succeed for a while, driving off the lords and their armored fighters, then fail in the end because the rulers get together more armored fighters and manage to take out the charismatic peasant leaders.

War is either numbers or *vastly superior* weaponry. Unless the PvP system is drastically changed (which you have not proposed) numbers will still win OP battles.

I have played real life low-tech combat with armor and weapons. (Society for Creative Anachronism) I was even skilled enough to sometimes take down both opponents in a 2 v 1 fight, as long as they were substantially inferior and they were not coordinated in their actions. If they were coordinated, they could take down me or any other single person. In our "wars", with a numerical advantage of 40% (i.e. 350 v 250) the larger force will win. Period. The skill level of the forces is not important, the organization is.

This is, of course, not relevant to suggested changes in Ryzom, but it makes me doubt some of your other categorical statements.

Last edited by Bitttymacod (2 years ago)


Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#19 [en] 

First off, I fail to see how a Spirit of War really deserves a cookie. Each weapon has it's strengths and weaknesses, and I think that simply having the ability to choose the optimal weapon for a given situation without your base skill going below 250 is (or at least should be) benefit enough. Northstar raises a valid point about weapons not being quite as unique as they probably should be, but weapon balancing is a separate issue that I think warrants a separate discussion elsewhere. For now, lets just say that maybe rebalancing weapons might make mastering more than a handful of weapons useful for more than just getting a title and move on.

Back on topic. That "Spirit of War" title is to acknowledge your commitment/persistence, not your actual martial prowess; anyone can swap weapons and grind a few dozen masters, but they will still be inferior to a toon with less skill controlled by a player with more skill. Having gotten all weapon skills to 250 doesn't actually mean you mastered anything at all, so it becomes a question of whether we are rewarding skill or simply giving a cookie to whoever has the most free time.

Second, I believe Bittty is correct about numbers and about the historical precedent. Unless we are talking about serious gaps in equipment or player aptitude, numbers will win nearly every time. I think it safe to assume that all of the serious PvPers here are roughly equal in terms of skill and gear though, so it all comes down to numbers. It's as true in Ryzom as it is IRL. However, actual armies are often vastly better equipped than peasants, and most peasants would rather not fight a disciplined force with superior equipment, which means that any government that tries can achieve numerical superiority relatively easily.

As an aside on Northstar's observation that RP winds up dying as a result, it's worth remembering that there is a wiiiiiiide range of commitment to RP. I've had some rude things said to me simply because I belong to a Karavan guild yet have non-Karavan friends... including my fellow Rangers. One possible reason for RP "dying" is that some people overestimate how committed to RP others were in the first place, sometimes to the point of belittling others for not being 120% into RP. When you get casual RP'ers to just shake their heads, walk away, and let their subscriptions lapse, that doesn't do any of us any favors.


Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.
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