DISCUSSIONS AROUND ONGOING PROJECTS


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#31 Report | Quote[en] 

What i ment was more in the lines of me being sure theres being more people against the change for their own gain, rather then in support for it for freemium players sake.
Daomei
Btw., why should it worry a f2p to receive mats of higher quality? That does not follow at all, they can do everything with those mats no less than with mats of their own level, even more, they may try to sell them to other players at a, say 2000% rate, which is 880 dapper/mat at q250 as compared to 40 dap/mat for q50 stuff. Btw, "degrade crafting" aka overcrafting is great for craft skill leveling.

the "what?.." part is aimed at those that made the choice to cap it aka sarcasm, and someone capped at 130craft cant viably degrade boost items relevant for 125 or q150. im talking about new players that the freemium attracts not dropped subbers.
Mjollren
But, what I *have* done is exactly what I said: pick up a guildie or a random person whose level is 10+, brought them to careplan my nodes, and do it until they're level 45-55. That is purpose enough to make me dig a bit. However, if taking a careplanner means digging q150 mats.. those are pointless to me.

but thats not a problem for a freemium player, im not attacking you or anything i find it honorable that you want to help out new players, as we all should, but the rule itself doesn't effect freemiums in your case, just you, the subber not wanting lower mats. sure hes a little effected for not getting powerleveled.. but hey thats called playing the game.
Daomei
I consider that statement polemic, untruthful and close to a violation of forum rules. Of course there may be some who deeply dislike the loss or uselessnesss of their f2p helper account and don't speak out, but it is not up to you to judge upon whether or not the criticism is "honest".

im sorry but... violation of rules? whats this kiddie pool rules? i cant assume my opinion of seeing people as dishonest? one which i still stand behind.
Daomei
I frequently read in uni that higher level diggers were asking for CPers. That won't be possible anymore with the recent change. As I experienced on uni, CP applications were serviced faster than calls for CPers. Not few of those accepting a real player CPer let their f2p alt pause during such activies.

it will still be possible, only capped at q150, the question is, will you the subber step down and be content with q150, it again only effects the subber negatively, the freemium is perfectly fine with q150.
what you will see in uni instaid = "looking for cp, q150+" rather then a generalized "looking for cp"

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Magez (7 years ago)

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#32 Report | Quote[en] 

Magez: Maybe you don't get it but it is insulting to call other players dishonest. And you have no right to judge that way. You have no data whatsoever about who is criticizing the change for their own gain (which is not illegitimate at all), for the sake of f2p players, or for the sake of the players' community as a whole. Personally, I could care wet shit about f2p CPers being nerfed as my CP (or the one I am CPing for) is fully subbed, and Spirit of the Bark like me (so I accepted low level CPers only for instruction purposes as they cannot gain xp when CPing for me, only by prospecting).

Next: It is ridiculous to expect that digging masters who are in need of q250 mats will accept digging q150 mats. And those still leveling at lvl 160 and above would get some 5 or 9 xp per digging for q150 mat which would render digging xp worthless for both the higher level digger and the freemium CPer, even if the higher level digger would accept to dig q150. It seems to me that you are completely unaware about what you are speaking about. It is complete nonsense that "the freemium is completely fine" with getting no xp.

You simply haven't understood relevant parts of game mechanics and are speaking out somewhat too loud for that. Sorry to have to say that.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#33 Report | Quote[en] 

Daomei
Magez: Maybe you don't get it but it is insulting to call other players dishonest. And you have no right to judge that way. You have no data whatsoever about who is criticizing the change for their own gain (which is not illegitimate at all), for the sake of f2p players, or for the sake of the players' community as a whole. Personally, I could care wet shit about f2p CPers being nerfed as my CP (or the one I am CPing for) is fully subbed, and Spirit of the Bark like me (so I accepted low level CPers only for instruction purposes as they cannot gain xp when CPing for me, only by prospecting).

Next: It is ridiculous to expect that digging masters who are in need of q250 mats will accept digging q150 mats. And those still leveling at lvl 160 and above would get some 5 or 9 xp per digging for q150 mat which would render digging xp worthless for both the higher level digger and the freemium CPer, even if the higher level digger would accept to dig q150. It seems to me that you are completely unaware about what you are speaking about. It is complete nonsense that "the freemium is completely fine" with getting no xp.

You simply haven't understood relevant parts of game mechanics and are speaking out somewhat too loud for that. Sorry to have to say that.

nowhere in your example is a new freemium player, freemium = 1-125 and such a person would get xp from a master digging q150.
an 1-125 would also love q150 mats, as those are mats higher then the highest thing they can craft, the highest freemium crafting skill is craft130, as such those mats are useful to them and as such they will be glad to have a master dig q150 with them. (whether the master likes q150 or not is irrelevant)

someone at 160 that stopped subbing wouldn't receive xp anywhere cept sub-125 skills. does the 160 want better mats then sub, does a 125 want better mats then sub.
what you want is for the 160 to still get his lvl mats when a 125freemium helps him, but thats not the freemiums player problem, its the 160's problem.

you keep looking at it from a subber perspective, for a new player 1-125 is all there is, q1 to q150 is all there is.
and thats fine, none of the rules effect him/her.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Magez (7 years ago)

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#34 Report | QuoteMultilingual 

You seem not to understand. If I (or Diwu for that case) with my lvl250 in all 5 ecos harvest, no matter which quality from 1..250, I get 0xp (not even 5 or 9 xp like a lvl 160..249 digger harvesting mat below her skill at q150 or lower). Any CPer in team would get exactly as much, namely 0xp. This is same from my perspective as a subbed player as from that of a f2p player.

Btw, "freemium" or f2p is not equal (!=) lvl 1..125, as there are not few player characters who are subbed from lvl 1 on (e.g. all up to 4 character slots of a subbed account which have not been developped simultaneously). That players who unsubbed do not get xp above lvl 125 is trivial.

Btw. digging q1 is very hard, just as a remark :)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#35 Report | Quote[en] 

Daomei
You seem not to understand. If I (or Diwu for that case) with my lvl250 in all 5 ecos harvest, no matter which quality from 1..250, I get 0xp (not even 5 or 9 xp like a lvl 160..249 digger harvesting mat below her skill at q150 or lower). Any CPer in team would get exactly as much, namely 0xp. This is same from my perspective as a subbed player as from that of a f2p player.

Btw, "freemium" or f2p is not equal (!=) lvl 1..125, as there are not few player characters who are subbed from lvl 1 on (e.g. all up to 4 character slots of a subbed account which have not been developped simultaneously). That players who unsubbed do not get xp above lvl 125 is trivial.

Btw. digging q1 is very hard, just as a remark :)

so your saying if theres a team of 2 diggers, 1 is lvl 250 and 1 is a freemium at lvl 90, the freemium doesn't get xp from the q150 thats being dug?
ifso then i didn't know that, but thats an xp problem not a q150 as cap problem. the fix would need to be enabling q150 worth of xp for the lvl 90.
if the lvl250 wants to do content with his freemium lvl90 friend he has to be content with playing at the lvl 90's content lvl, only makes sense to me.
or convince his friend to sub. you cannot expect the game to make an exception for the subbers sake.

"hey devs, i met this lvl1 guy that came from silan right away, i like him hes my friend, can you not make the rules apply to him to we can play together at my level content, k thnx"

anyone higher then lvl 125 who is unsubbed is also considered a freemium i know, but if that person wants to play content higher then 125 he has to sub, simple as that.
freemium = the content 1to125, want to play higher content you have to sub. if your already 160 and want to play 170 content, you have to sub.
126-250 is subber content.

Last edited by Magez (7 years ago)

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#36 Report | Quote[en] 

Yes, if one is lvl 250, one does not get xp anymore. The only way to get "points" is having dp being worked off. That does help a teamed helper, no matter whether healer, damage dealer, or CPer, only in case if she has DP, too. With that strange q150 rule, this will not be the case anymore, or only some ten to hundred dp being worked off every digging instead of up to seventy thousand.

To earn xp while digging, one has to dig at qualities usually from up 10 quality degrees above the own level to at most 10 degrees below. Higher above (possible if you are higher in a different eco) is not sensible as the failures destroy more than the "overdigging" benefits, lower below leads to very low xp, down to 5..9xp for qualities 20+ below level. So CPing earns XP only with diggers below lvl 250 digging -10..+10 around their level.

Until the recent change, a CPer could assist any such digger. A formerly subbed freemium with digging levels above 145 would not earn her xp even if the recent nerfing would not exist. Equally, an unsubbed melee with levels above 145 would not earn her xp when healing or fighting alongside. Even a subbed, say lvl 150 melee or mage attacking a, say lvl 130 foe in team would not earn xp. Such is the mechanics of team play.

But so far, most lower level players, no matter whether f2p or not, could contribute to lvl grinding teams. A CPer of, say lvl 30..70, could use her limited ground stability skills to prevent gas/explo most times and earn the same xp as her lvl 125..249 teammate. Similarly, every small player may assist stronger players as e.g. a healer in grinding teams fighting lvl248 kinchers/najabs, 247 hornchers, 250 plods/shalahs, 251 cuttlers, or 255 jugulas.

The good thing with that is the bond between even fairly low level and nearly highest level players. This bond is cut when nerfing the ability of lower level players to cooperate in team.

As told, all that does not apply to masters. Yet, digging masters may allow small harvesters to prospect for them. This aspect, fortunately, has not been nerfed.
"hey devs, i met this lvl1 guy that came from silan right away, i like him hes my friend, can you not make the rules apply to him to we can play together at my level content, k thnx"

A level 1 coming from Silan did a stupid move, btw., and it is hard to support her appropriately as a lvl 1 will have neither healing nor CPing abilities and has to work hard to get at least close to one who passed all Silan tests, being lvl35 min in melee or magic, and lvl 21 at minimum in all the rest. But the devs had made the rules apply to support even low level characters. The CP nerfing was an architectural breach of these rules.

One thing at the end: Please do not think that I argue out of arrogance or contempt. I value your thoughts and your interest in many aspects of the game and acknowledge that you have good knowledge and sane ideas about much of it. As far as I feel you to be in error, I consider these errors worth while the effort to be corrected. Btw, I don't claim to be always right.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Daomei (7 years ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#37 Report | Quote[fr] 

So many reply just to say that's many players can't dig without help !

If you really need help for digging call friends, if you don't have friends, sub an account that's simple.

If you really want to help fresh newcomers you still can do it… you'll retrieve low quality mats, but you can help !

It's just a matter of choice !

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#38 Report | Quote[en] 

Daomei
Yes, if one is lvl 250, one does not get xp anymore. The only way to get "points" is having dp being worked off. That does help a teamed helper, no matter whether healer, damage dealer, or CPer, only in case if she has DP, too. With that strange q150 rule, this will not be the case anymore, or only some ten to hundred dp being worked off every digging instead of up to seventy thousand.

To earn xp while digging, one has to dig at qualities usually from up 10 quality degrees above the own level to at most 10 degrees below. Higher above (possible if you are higher in a different eco) is not sensible as the failures destroy more than the "overdigging" benefits, lower below leads to very low xp, down to 5..9xp for qualities 20+ below level. So CPing earns XP only with diggers below lvl 250 digging -10..+10 around their level.

Until the recent change, a CPer could assist any such digger. A formerly subbed freemium with digging levels above 145 would not earn her xp even if the recent nerfing would not exist. Equally, an unsubbed melee with levels above 145 would not earn her xp when healing or fighting alongside. Even a subbed, say lvl 150 melee or mage attacking a, say lvl 130 foe in team would not earn xp. Such is the mechanics of team play.

But so far, most lower level players, no matter whether f2p or not, could contribute to lvl grinding teams. A CPer of, say lvl 30..70, could use her limited ground stability skills to prevent gas/explo most times and earn the same xp as her lvl 125..249 teammate. Similarly, every small player may assist stronger players as e.g. a healer in grinding teams fighting lvl248 kinchers/najabs, 247 hornchers, 250 plods/shalahs, 251 cuttlers, or 255 jugulas.

The good thing with that is the bond between even fairly low level and nearly highest level players. This bond is cut when nerfing the ability of lower level players to cooperate in team.

As told, all that does not apply to masters. Yet, digging masters may allow small harvesters to prospect for them. This aspect, fortunately, has not been nerfed.
"hey devs, i met this lvl1 guy that came from silan right away, i like him hes my friend, can you not make the rules apply to him to we can play together at my level content, k thnx"

A level 1 coming from Silan did a stupid move, btw., and it is hard to support her appropriately as a lvl 1 will have neither healing nor CPing abilities and has to work hard to get at least close to one who passed all Silan tests, being lvl35 min in melee or magic, and lvl 21 at minimum in all the rest. But the devs had made the rules apply to support even low level characters. The CP nerfing was an architectural breach of these rules.

One thing at the end: Please do not think that I argue out of arrogance or contempt. I value your thoughts and your interest in many aspects of the game and acknowledge that you have good knowledge and sane ideas about much of it. As far as I feel you to be in error, I consider these errors worth while the effort to be corrected. Btw, I don't claim to be always right.

if a 125 freemium can help heal a 250, why can't a 125 help cp a 250.
i agree with that. i want that. i have a cp alt, i dont forage without it.

i only wanted to point out that we shouldn't twist this all in a way that makes us pretend to be some heroes of justice that save 1-125, the cap effects the subbers, and us subbers are complaining about it. a new 1-125 player would not complain about it because he needs nothing beyond 125, until he wants more and decides to sub.

but meh lets be done with this, it doesn't rly matter anyway. if they remove cap, fine, ifnot fine too. i just didn't like people pretending.

Last edited by Magez (7 years ago)

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#39 Report | Quote[en] 

Ekoh
So many reply just to say that's many players can't dig without help..

If they cannot, why should they? That is not the point. Btw, I mastered 1 eco (desert) and had to others (lakes and roots) at 230 before I used the service of a CPer the first time. I know how to dig without help. Yet, especially when mastering all crafts (which I did) it is ways more relaxing not to dig solo.
Ekoh
It's just a matter of choice !
Exactly. So kindly respect it.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#40 Report | Quote[en] 

I do respect people who make real choice.

I do not have to respect people who just argue in order to have free CP availaible again for helping them to dig, they don't care about new players, anyway they already play alone with alts !

You sub an account in order to dig that's fine, you help the game with this subbed account.

But the other who just want a CP for free, didn't help the game at all.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Ekoh (7 years ago)

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#41 Report | Quote[en] 

Ekoh
I do respect people who make real choice. ..
It is not up to you to decide which choice is "real". Upholding one subbed account may be more effort for a student, jobless, single parent, low income worker or pensionist than subbing twice or more for a well earning IT, public service, or business professional. Everybody with a subbed account is helping the game.

Judging about others' choices is immature and arrogant.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#42 Report | Quote[en] 

You right, "real" was not usefull here as a choice is always real whatever it be.


They will not lose anything by not using Care Planner…


Judge me as much as you want, it'll not change anything. If one deeply need a CP, he can sub an account, if he cannot afford, he can call friends for help. Pretty simple.

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#43 Report | Quote[fr] 

Talking about helping freemium, it's even better that way. Cause digging qlt 150 mats is useless when you are master... so what you can do, if you really want to help is just to give your extracted mats to the freemium player.
But this works only if you wish to help and not if you are just hidding around this excuse to get your cp alt back.

For me, it's one of the good way to fight agains alts/bots.
But CP alt are not the main problem of alts. At least this usage just help the digger (even if cp is not that usefull in my personnal opinion... just maybe you don't have to focus the game that much with cp).

And anyway, it's pointless to takl about this, we don't have numbers about real freemium activ accounts (which are not alts I mean).

#44 Report | Quote[en] 

Sinvaders
For me, it's one of the good way to fight agains alts/bots.

Why do you want to fight against alts?  Why do you seem to equate alts and bots?  Have you met Daomei and Diwu, Gidget and Widget (and Gadget), Ulsort and Saady? Do you know which other pairings are main/alt? 

Alts are a part of the game. They have been since the beginning.  Some players have them as fronts for storage guilds, healer slaves, or cp slaves.  As far as that goes, slavery is illegal in the Four Nations, so they should be freed (look -- an opportunity for roleplay!).  Other players define their alts and make them into interesting characters in their own right. 

I don't see the devs getting rid of alts.  Period.  Even if they wanted to, I would fight it.

Bots are a  different matter and far harder to locate and manage.  Personally I don't see why anyone would bother to bot a cp-er.  It's too easy to do it without botting.   Bot healers have been a problem in the past, but are relatively easy to spot.  Take video and report to the CSRs.   They move slowly, but they do move.

-- Bittty

P.S.  I do not have a cp or a healer alt. 

Any time I have used a cp-er it has been to advance the level of a new player (often, but not always, f2p).  Since I have have dig masters in all ecosystems, a q150 limit would mean that I could not help a f2p newbie level digging -- I get no xp for digging q150, so they don't either.  (Even digging q250 with a cp-er in team, they get generally 1000xp or less per node.) I do not see what giving the mats to the newbie would do.  Dappers from selling mats or xp for crafting them don't give them xp in harvest.

Last edited by Bitttymacod (7 years ago)

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Remembering Tyneetryk
Phaedreas Tears - 15 years old and first(*) of true neutral guilds in Atys.
(*) This statement is contested, but we are certainly the longest lasting.
<clowns | me & you | jokers>

#45 Report | Quote[en] 

( cp'er helping on a q250 node gets ~1.5k xp if the material is choice grade, and ~1.4k if fine grade ; this can be doubled by catalyzers, making the person progress very fast )

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