Improve PvP Points Calculation - IDEAS FOR RYZOM - Ryzom Community ForumGuest

# IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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How PvP points currently work is:
1. Every fame above 25 is considered pro-faction, every fame below -25 is considered anti-faction
2. All 6 fame states (pro, anti or neutral) of both parties of a tagged pvp battle are compared:
(A) Every match (both pro or both anti) gives -1,
(B) every enemy-match (one pro and one anti) gives +1,
(C) anything else is disregarded.
The result is capped to the range between 0 and +3 and then used as a multiplier for pvp-points.

Now this doesn't work well for marauders:
A Karavan with no nation fame will get and give 0 points because we agree that Kamis are bad (-1) and disagree on Karavan (+1) -> 0.
A Kami Fyros has +kami, -karavan, +fyros, +zorai, -tryker, -matis and will again get and yield 0 pvp points.

This is not really consistent with the actual alignment and reduces pvp points mainly for and from marauders.

Kami vs Karavan neutrals -> +2
Kami or Karavan neutrals vs marauders -> 0

I suggest to remove any negative points (remove rule (A)).

Kami vs Karavan neutrals -> +2
Kami or Karavan neutrals vs marauders -> +1

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The effect isn't limited to marauders: imagine a fyros hating matis and a matis hating fyros who both like trykers and zorai... they are enemies, right? at least they should be.

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Casy * Foreign Secretary * Alliance of Honor
Intensive Care Bear
+1
And thanks a lot for the explanation, I never understood how the points are calculated, and I agree that it is neither very transparent nor sounding extremely logical.

What I do not fully understand is how that is working for (or against) neutrals in both religion and nation.

>Kami vs. Karavan neutrals -> +2
Hm. There is an enemy match K-K, understood. But where is the other one from? Assume 2 nation neutrals, one Kara, one Kami.
They may have all nations above 25, or even only 2, but the rest not below -25. So they may have neutral Fyros and Zorai (not below -25, thus disregarded), and positive Tryker and Matis faction (match), thus multiplier capped to 0. A full nation neutral (all >+25, like Rangers) will always have 0..1 against a religios citizen, right?

Kami or Karavan neutrals vs marauders -> 0
I did not understand that either. A religion neutral is disagreeing with marauders about K+K. Shouldn't that make 2 enemy matches, at least with religion fame >25?

In fact, a full neutral (all fame >25) would count in as always the "worst enemy" towards marauders (6 enemy matches), or? That is consistent with the fame difference, yet it is stupid for roleplay, as fully neutrals (at least most actively roleplaying ones) tend to respect marauder players as fellow homins, disagreement about nations and creeds notwithstanding. For both Karavan and Kami followers, marauders are committing sacrileges (Kami - playing with Goo, Kara - exploring the deep PR), so they should be worse enemies in their roleplay.

Removing the "rule A" is a good starting point, and I fully support it (do not see any disadvantage, or am I missing
something?)

Yet that would not remove all contradictions which seem to be a side effect of the unification of PvP points. A more
transparent and logical system would be a good idea, indeed.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Daomei (6 years ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral
Daomei (atys)
>Kami vs. Karavan neutrals -> +2
Hm. There is an enemy match K-K, understood. But where is the other one from?
anti-kami vs pro-kami = +1
pro-karavan vs anti-karavan = +1
neutral nations don't count anything.
Daomei (atys)
Assume 2 nation neutrals, one Kara, one Kami. They may have all nations above 25, or even only 2, but the rest not below -25.
Those are actually not neutrals. They are pro-nations (4 or 2).
Daomei (atys)
So they may have neutral Fyros and Zorai (not below -25, thus disregarded), and positive Tryker and Matis faction (match), thus multiplier capped to 0. A full nation neutral (all >+25, like Rangers) will always have 0..1 against a religios citizen, right?
All >25 is not neutral. And yes, you can only get pvp-points if the opponent has more anti-fames than pro-fames. If you have Kami, Karavan 0, Tryker, Matis, Fyros, Zorai +26 and your opponent is a classic fyros with karavan -50, kami +50, fyros +, zorai +, tryker -, matis - you cannot get pvp-points:
Karavan: anti vs neutral -> 0
Kami: pro vs neutral -> 0
Fyros: pro vs pro -> -1
Zorai: pro vs pro -> -1
Tryker: anti vs pro -> +1
Matis: anti vs pro -> +1

But if you fight a marauder you get max: 4x pro vs anti -> +4, 2x neutral vs anti -> 0 results in +3 (capped).
Daomei (atys)
Kami or Karavan neutrals vs marauders -> 0
I did not understand that either. A religion neutral is disagreeing with marauders about K+K. Shouldn't that make 2 enemy matches, at least with religion fame >25?

When posting in english i use arispotle naming. A kami neutral is a kami aligned player with neutral national fame. With the new distinction between hominist and neutral, he now has all nation fames between -24 and +24. A fame-wise theist will get +2 vs an antitheist, yes.
Daomei (atys)
In fact, a full neutral (all fame >25) would count in as always the "worst enemy" towards marauders (6 enemy matches), or? That is consistent with the fame difference, yet it is stupid for roleplay, as fully neutrals (at least most actively roleplaying ones) tend to respect marauder players as fellow homins, disagreement about nations and creeds notwithstanding. For both Karavan and Kami followers, marauders are committing sacrileges (Kami - playing with Goo, Kara - exploring the deep PR), so they should be worse enemies in their roleplay.
Yes and no. You are describing a hominist/theist fame rather than a neutral one. And yes, a hominist/theist has 6 enemy matches (+6) resulting in a capped +3 factor.

I agree that it would be better to fully rework the system. However removing rule A would somewhat do the trick and move the issue from annoying to well.... not perfect but ok.

Last edited by Casy (6 years ago)

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Casy * Foreign Secretary * Alliance of Honor
Intensive Care Bear
Yep im all for this. Had to raise my civ fames to get points off marauders which was annoying.

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________________________

High Officer of Shuriiken
________________________

Shuriiken's Page
A glimpse into Virg's life

I belong to the warrior in whom the old ways have joined the new
NB: Void respawn is where you can find the PVP, also willing to give lessons :)
I say add something more to the PVP merchant then worry about giving more points.
Yes, the point of this request is that kamis don't know what to do with their pvp points while marauders rarely get any. Thanks for the emphasis :)

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Casy * Foreign Secretary * Alliance of Honor
Intensive Care Bear
Casy (atys)
..
I agree that it would be better to fully rework the system. However removing rule A would somewhat do the trick and move the issue from annoying to well.... not perfect but ok.

I agree, and many thanks for the explanations. Having played only rarely on Arispotle I did not know that terminology concerning neutrals. And I hope the proposal will be adopted by the devs and implemented soon.

Anyway, I would favour a more radical solution. The sense of faction fame based multipliers does not seem to exist after the unified PvP points. Before, one may have identified a PvP victory as a service for the faction. But which faction do full neutrals (theist/hominist) serve that they get the highest multiplier against marauders? Other contradictions you already named.

The best in my opinion would be waiving the multipliers altogether (maybe doubling the amount of points to be achieved instead) and granting PvP points indiscriminately for any PvP activity, be it tagged PvP, outpost battle, encounter in LoU or Nexus, in the arenas, or even in duel. That would be simple, logical, and inviting to any kind of PvP activity.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral
Actually I agree with drezar- more pvp rewards should come first. Hopefully the devs have reached their descision if to add more or not. Then when more content is added worry about improving the calculation. I dont understand your point about kamis getting more points than marauders? The fame calculation works both ways so surely its the same? Maybe kamis get more points because we are just better at pvp :PP

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________________________

High Officer of Shuriiken
________________________

Shuriiken's Page
A glimpse into Virg's life

I belong to the warrior in whom the old ways have joined the new
NB: Void respawn is where you can find the PVP, also willing to give lessons :)
You fight karas and marauder -> +1 in average, I fight karas and kamis -> 0 in average, just think a lil before posting. Your teasing is plain off topic and you know it. I love you too.

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Casy * Foreign Secretary * Alliance of Honor
Intensive Care Bear
can't we all just get along? lolx, i do really like the idea that daomei had, that all pvp type actions should net pvp points, regardless of type, and that those rewards be equal to everyone regardless of who you are (civ) or what you believe in (faction/religion)

and i think it should be noted that i dispise the forced pvp 110%, and do not personally do any pvp outside of OP wars (i play ryzom for the pve, if i want pvp, i find a fps game to play) but regardless of my dislike for pvp, i still am in support of things related to pvp becasue i'm one person, and while i don't like or use pvp points (i've never understood how to get them or really cared to) i'll still support this content request of everyone that does, because i would rather see things added to the game, then to see ryzom die off completely due to stagnation.

so while i don't really care for pvp, i'll add my 2 dappers in the hope that just my view and posting will help to get attention to this topic. (also i'm in full support of ANY optional content because if it's optional, i don't have to change my play style in anyway, and if i don't use an option offered, it won't change what i do use or want.)

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Remickla (atys)
Other games - they give you a cookie whether you succeed or not, in fact you don't even have to participate. Ryzom takes your cookie, eats it in front of you, and slaps you 2 or 3 times for bringing a cookie in the first place.
Honestly didn't realise marauders had a disadvantage sorry. Of course my teasing is off topic <3

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________________________

High Officer of Shuriiken
________________________

Shuriiken's Page
A glimpse into Virg's life

I belong to the warrior in whom the old ways have joined the new
NB: Void respawn is where you can find the PVP, also willing to give lessons :)
I'm glad i found your post Casy, this is much more helpful; I was directed to the patch notes which just confused me more....

Based on your explanation I've had to shed some of my fame in a couple civs, becoming anti-zorai and neutral-fyros, and hopefully this will result in at least a +1 fame score against most opponents.

Maybe the fame thresholds could be set at levels corresponding to civ alignment numbers, I hardly think of 0 or as low as -24 fame as neutral.

Civ aligned players have one fame maxed at 0, another 25, then 75, and 100. If we were considered anti-civ at <=0, neutral >0 <=25, and pro-civ >25 would this create more 'enemy' scores without players needing to have large negative fame permanently?

Last edited by Placio (6 years ago)

at least now i know why i can't get a pvp point with anyone i know, because i'm +50 in all 4 civ's, thus i can't get any pvp points for anything based on what i'm reading and that's plain WRONG.

again i say pvp points for ANY killing of another homin, regardless of civ fame, regardless of faction fame, regardless of anything like that. as it is with this system there is NO way i can ever get any points, and yes i have a mara friend that was kind enough to let me kill him a few times to test that out, also let him kill me a few times, and what happened, no one got any pvp points even after we'd both killed eachother 10 times (and having to respawn each time because we were both solo and tagged up)

bottom line, the current system is broken, it doesn't need to be complex to be fair, you kill someone you get points, you get killed someone else get's points. what is the point in making things so complex when they don't need to be, don't give me bs about RP because near as i can tell, it's dead because of the un-unifited lore of the multi-server..... sorry that's a little off topic, but again, give me 3 good reasons to make the system so complex that i as a kami neutral (+50 fame with all civ's is indeed neutral) can't get a point for killing ANYONE in game (p.s. my mara friend is -100 in all civ's, and -40 to -60 with kami and karavan)

want a totally fair pvp points system, give x points per kill of another homin, regardless of civ/faction, that's balenced to be fair to everyone, kami/kara/mara/fyros/matis/zorai/tryker. (damn why make something complex that doesn't need it)

just my two dappers, but honestly ppl, 3 good reasons to make it complex please.

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Remickla (atys)
Other games - they give you a cookie whether you succeed or not, in fact you don't even have to participate. Ryzom takes your cookie, eats it in front of you, and slaps you 2 or 3 times for bringing a cookie in the first place.
Talk, if you were killing a marauder you should be getting +4 because of the civ fame, and +0 because you agree karas suck but disagree about kamis. Either you were doing something wrong or the system was bugged at the time, but your multiplier should be a solid +3.

I like Casy's idea of only granting points if there's a fame disagreement. Being in the same faction shouldn't mean squat if you're actively trying to murder each other.

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guess that means there's never been a civil war before then too right?

again, killing is killing.

always has to be complex, can't be simple and fair can it?

and for anyone that might not understand fair and simple, here it is:

player "A" kills player "B" = player "A" get's pvp points

no complex figures needed, no speical scripting that can be bugged all the time and never work right.
(as far as i'm concerned this is prime example of why people get tired of ryzom, too much complexity when simplicity would work, complex is good for some things, but not everything)

just another reason for me to never have a desire to do pvp out-side of op's, no ____ point in it, there's no reward because i'm kami and 50 fame with all civ's so i guess i get no pvp points no matter who i kill. (seams like a big flaw to me)

and if someone that want's to test this out to see i'm not just saying this all, hit me up when i'm not afk in game and i'll be happy to meet you where we can stand around and take turns killing eachother just to prove the point.

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Remickla (atys)
Other games - they give you a cookie whether you succeed or not, in fact you don't even have to participate. Ryzom takes your cookie, eats it in front of you, and slaps you 2 or 3 times for bringing a cookie in the first place.