Refused

En ce qui me concerne, la restriction d'inviter des non-inscrits ou des non-nationaux est plutôt une restriction artificielle. Que l'on peut inviter par exemple des homins orientés Kami à une seule guilde Kami, mais pas à une seule guilde neutre.

Je comprends aussi le point de vue de l'orientation dans le jeu. Les kamis appartiennent aux kamis, les maraudeurs aux maraudeurs, etc. Vous avez alors un objectif commun, une racine commune en matière de RP, mais aussi des points de téléportation communs, ce qui simplifie beaucoup, d'une manière pratique. Il en va de même pour les nations.

Mais cet accord doit-il être réglementé sur la base d'une restriction dans le jeu, ou peut-il faire l'objet d'un accord entre homins ? Peut-être que d'autres règlements pourraient être meilleurs pour la guilde ?

Mais comme je le constate, cette séparation stricte n'existe visiblement plus. Peut-être une réaction aux Kitins ?

Je sais, bien sûr, que beaucoup de joueurs PVBI veulent récupérer l'ancien PVBI fractionnaire. Mais il semble qu'aujourd'hui les guerres ne soient plus basées sur les croyances d'une faction ou d'une nation, mais plutôt sur des croyances individualistes. L'Alliance Kalamar le montre aussi. Quand il s'agit de conflits, il me semble qu'il s'agit plutôt de mauvais contacts passés ou simplement d'une dispute.

Bien sûr, de telles constellations de guildes, composées de toutes les factions, auraient un énorme potentiel de conflit lorsqu'il s'agit de combattre, mais alors ce serait plus personnel. De nombreux compromis devraient être faits en matière de RP.

En fin de compte, il ne s'agit pas de tout mélanger et de ne pas voir de frontières claires entre les croyances d'une faction ou d'une nation, mais la possibilité de travailler ensemble dans une guilde malgré une faction/nation opposée, ce qui n'est pas un must.

Je voulais également vous rappeler que la PVV fractionnée, qui ressemble davantage à une correspondance mortelle aujourd'hui, a fait l'objet de restrictions dans le passé. Si c'est ce à quoi la plupart des gens sont favorables, alors la limite de guilde devrait également être modifiée.

Personnellement, je pense que la liberté dans un jeu de bac à sable, c'est comme danser sur une lame de rasoir. Vous pouvez tomber à gauche ou à droite, mais même si vous êtes négligent, vous pouvez vous diviser en deux. C'est pourquoi ce serait formidable s'il y avait toujours beaucoup d'opinions constructives.

Je vous remercie !

I am all for such guilds, and consider the mandatory faction-based restrictions on membership to break any sense of immersion Ryzom has by bringing the reality I play games to escape from into Ryzom. Now, I know that there are plenty of folks out there that need a script to follow in order to feel like they are "roleplaying", but there are some of us who prefer more of a sandbox approach if for no reason other than a world where the society and character development are organic instead of scripted is more immersive. (How ironic that those who claim to be pro-RP seem to be so anti-immersion...)

We all love Ryzom. However, it's also been obvious to me for most of the years I've been here that one demographic is extremely determined to divide the server by imposing their preferred restrictions upon us all even if it means killing the game. If you want to impose restrictions on yourself or be part of a guild who will toss you for reasons that many of us would consider ridiculous, then that's your right. But when you try to take away other folks' freedom simply because you cannot restrain yourself or are egotistical enough to think that your way is THE ONLY CORRECT WAY then you're just asking for a fight. That sort of fight is not good for the future of Ryzom. Sure, that fight might not actually kill any people the way the same fight would IRL, but it will kill the game.There are worse things than being tolerant of those who do not seek to restrict themselves as strictly as you do. Don't do the in-game equivalent of outlawing meat for everyone simply because you are a vegetarian unless you seek to destroy Atys!Just as prisoners are free to go anywhere they want so long as they do not leave the prison? I think that you and I have irreconcilably different opinions on what "freedom" means.

My goals are outside this forum post, but if you're addressing it:

• I am NOT against the lore or to destroy everyone, what RP means or has to do with.
• I am FOR further development, more human decisions, instead of artificial limitation, but with consequences.

There will still be classic guilds of a faction line even if the artificial restriction is removed. No one is stopping the homins from doing so. There is much more that unites the factions or nations than could be destroyed by the abolition of an artificial "invitation prevention".

On the one hand, I understand that restrictions give security. According to the motto: "A Karavan can never be a member of a Kami guild". But even if he could be invited, the teleporters would tell if he is telling the truth.

That's it. So that we don't misunderstand each other.

One possibility would be to replace an artificial "invitation prevention" by letting the homins pay for it. That is, he loses Dapper to his current faction or the fame decreases significantly. I would see that as a practical consequence.

Practical: A Karavan joins a Kami guild. By accepting the invitation, the Karavan loses 20 fame for example or/and loses 100,000 Dapper to the Karavan as punishment.

That would be, for example, what I could imagine. Whereby the numbers would have to be adapted.

I have seen both sides of the issue- Nations/orgainzations charter or sponsor guilds so it is in their interest to impose restrictions, but also players still learning or just playing for fun sometimes can't join a guild that there friends are in.

I do think that there are already three solutions:

Change your allegiances to match those of your friends.
Create a league to organize.
Create a custom channel (aka Cookies).

Historically, the only thing a guild provides you personally is a chat channel and an additional online list and less commonly used guild forums. Now there are guild islands and hopefully you will be able to invite visitors! The league and custom channel already cover the chat and online component.

I don't know about faction restrictions, I can say I absolutely hate citizenship restrictions on guilds. I'd like to see all of it be optional - guilds could enforce it if they want to, but wouldn't have to if they don't. The playerbase is small as is and it feels like these limitations force us to have lots of tiny guilds instead of a few really strong ones, only serving to fracture us further.

The issue with these solutions is that they're not really solutions. What if I don't want to change my allegiance due to RP reasons? It's perfectly plausible that a Kami homin would want to be friends with a Karavan homin despite the two factions being at odds. But they can't join the same guild due to artificial restrictions.

Leagues are nice but they're incredibly clunky and inconvenient, which is why I only ever see them used for SN or OP wars. A custom channel would be the only solution when it comes to chat.

But guilds are more than just chat. There is also a guild hall with materials and gear. Having to ask someone else what's in there and if they could get it for you would be a nightmare.

I guess some guilds don't use their forums much, I know ours is full of useful information, so I would hate to lose that feature as well.

Lastly, there is a certain sense of belonging when members of a guild carry the same banner over their heads.

As I've said above, I would like to have race and faction restrictions be completely optional. That way, we can all play the game the way we want to without negatively impacting others.

You are well within your rights to impose those restrictions upon your guild. However, once you try to impose them upon ALL Ryzom players, even those outside your guild, then you overstep your bounds and will be treated as just a wannabe tyrant.

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." - Oliver Wendell Holmes

I have not touched your nose, nor do I have any desire to, but you seek to break mine.

Unless you are saying that you refuse to share a server with those who do not agree with you 500%, that makes no sense. And if that IS what you are saying, then it is a threat. I am not restricting your right to play as you see fit except insofar as I am saying that you cannot control me like I am your alt; I have free will. If you wish to order those who are not you around as if we are all your alts though, then you're interfering with the rights of others to play the way they see fit. Accusing me of restricting your rights by asking for a little freedom is projecting. You telling me how I "must" behave because of how YOU interpret lore is completely different.

Partially correct. However what is "too much freedom"? According to some on this server being less than 50,000% hardcore fundamentalist "LORE IS LIFE!" RP or being able to ever opt out of PvP is "too much freedom". As one who plays games to get away from that sort of radicalism IRL, I think you can understand why I disagree with you so strongly. If I wanted the utter and absolute sovereignty that you seem to want and that you accuse me of wanting (more projection!) then I wouldn't be playing an MMO.

Lore is the past, not the future. There is more to existence than reliving history. Worlds change and things evolve. If you are stuck in the past then the world will leave you behind. If you insist on trying to keep the world stuck in the past, the world will fight you. You can still be a part of what comes next if you do not try to conquer it, but history is generally unkind to the regressive people who seek to stop progress. Look at how many horse-drawn carriages there are, or how long it's been since the Kings of many nations have been replaced by Presidents, and recognize that why Atys may be fiction, it is a construct of human minds and therefore parallels humanity in more ways than you would ever care to admit. That means that change happens.

The lore does not dictate what every single homin throughout the history of the rootball was like. And the racial hatreds you point out are averages, not 120% immutable causative relationships utterly and completely without exception. If your strict interpretation was remotely correct then the Corsair tribe would be impossible because ALL Trykers are Karavan. Does that sound flippant? If so, then imagine how you sound to me.

And no, there is no danger of Atys ever being "one people". There will always be those who cannot function in civilized society who will separate themselves from it. IRL, those are often folks who have views that are far stricter than those of mainstream society not unlike your exceedingly narrow interpretation on what Lore considers acceptable. Given that Atys toons are controlled by RL humans, it is not unreasonable to assume that the sociology here will mirror that no matter what. In fact, is that not why the Marauders were officialized as a faction; to give the outcasts who refused to fit onto Atysian society an home?
There are some limits to be sure. For one thing, a game with a lot of code from 2004 (including the engine) is going to have inherent limits. Then there is the fact that stuff like cutting trees and building houses requires a lot of dev-hours to add in; dev-hours are a finite resource for a small team, so it stands to reason that maybe giving a NeL-engine game the freedom the RAGE engine gives GTA5 players isn't a high priority (or even a possibility).

Just as tabletop GMs control the NPCs of their campaign, the dev team controls the NPCs and the world here. Us player-controlled toons are not the only homins on Atys, and the NPC rulers are not going to just hand you territory because you have the sense of entitlement. However, how us players interact with each other is something that cannot be controlled the same way unless you think authoritarian regimes are a good thing. There have been wars fought against that sort of thing; do you want to start a similar (though, admittedly, smaller-scale) war here? Before you answer, look at which side has won most of those conflicts.

By your logic, the lore is so strict that we don't even need to play; our roles are so rigidly defined that the devs don't need players because Ryzom is just a graphic novel. If that sounds like I am mischaracterizing your position by exaggerating then maybe you should look at yourself and ask why there are so many who agree with me. You really, truly are seen that way by a lot of folks; I'm simply the most vocal about it because many would rather just turn off the chat and avoid the forums or simply quit the game than speak out the way I do. You can't have RP without engagement, yet you do so much to make others want to actively avoid engaging. And if you want to kill Ryzom that badly, then rest assured that I am going to resist you!

You are missing the point completely. Impose whatever restrictions you want, just don't force other guilds to impose them as well.

Nobody is trying to remove the ability to restrict factions and nations you accept into your guild, just advocating for making them optional for other guilds. Therefore, nobody is restricting your freedom to play as you see fit.

Exactly. Because that's how it is.

The lore isn't a set of rules. It's a story about the past of Atys. As far as I know, when it comes to politics, they have always been very player driven. Therefore, cross-faction alliances aren't impossible. Besides, they would make sense from a lore standpoint, too. It's not uncommon for people to unite against a common enemy, be it the kitins or the marauders, or maybe something else entirely.

Honestly? I'd be all for it. As long as there is some kind of event where you come to an agreement with the Matis kingdom and Matis citizens. Though it depends on how you would like to do this. If it would just end up annoying other players, then it might not be that great of an idea.

All in all, you are making a huge issue out of something that isn't one. Nobody is trying to force you to abandon your way of playing, merely asking for more options that would better accomodate other playstyles. You are being defensive but there is nobody attacking you. There are many communities on Atys. I believe we can live in a peaceful coexistence (and I mean as players, not neccessarily as characters), but that means all sides of the conversation need to take steps to achieve it. The playerbase is small and we should work together to make our stay on our beloved rootball as pleasant as possible, learn some tolerance and stop antagonizing each other just because we think someone else's fun is wrong. Shouting about how your way is the only right way isn't going to make things any better. Realizing that different people like different things and that that's perfectly okay just might.

You talk to Heernis too? Funny coincidence, that! And yes, he is understanding. Then again, I do not conflate "understanding" and "agreement" the way you do either. I understand you better than you give me credit for; I simply disagree quite strongly, and I would rather you not mistake my disagreement for simple-mindedness.

Your argument basically boils down to admitting an inability and unwillingness to allow more forward-thinking players to look beyond how Ryzom was 10 years ago. You consider societal change to be disrespectful because you cling to the old ways.

Or maybe you're just afraid of being treated the way many of us have been treated for years.

You ask what enemy we can fight? Have you forgotten why the Trykers fought the Matis in the past and are not fond of Zorai now? Or did you choose Matis because you find their haughtiness and self-entitlement resonated within you just as the Tryker's love for freedom appealed to me? Like I said before, so long as there's folks like you around, we'll never have the unified mega-guild that you seem to think will happen if we don't all bow to your demands for authoritarian division. And our fight won't be because you're Matis or Karavan, though it won't be any less factional. (See another of Heernis' threads for more on that.)

Just because one does not interpret the lore as you do or feel that the future must be identical to the past as you do does not mean we ignore or disrespect lore. In fact, you're part of why I renounced Jena and went Ranger; I respect the lore enough to not gloss over the ideological divide between us simply for the sake of using the same TPs as my guildmates.

But keep going on about how I disrespect lore by interpreting it less fanatically restrictive than you, and how my choosing to be friends with people outside my faction is more of a restriction on you rights than telling me I CANNOT cross faction lines would be to mine. However, I would appreciate it if you showed me at least enough respect to do so without being hypocritical, megalomaniacal, or just plain self-entitled. If you cannot give me at least that little bit of respect, then you cannot expect me to give you unearned respect.