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#60 Добавлено Generallee 5 лет назад [en] 

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So, I’m actually very good at breaking things down, and this discussion is obviously not about multi-boxing. It is about defining the purpose of Ryzom gaming and how stringently it should be enforced.

I see two very simple strategies here. Either you make this game for players and adapt to their will and needs, being flexible and only put up certain frames and boundaries to maintain stability. OR you decide to stick to the core principle of a MMORPG and remove any element that conflicts with the essence and ‘true’ way of playing the game (sounds like Azazors philosophy). One aspect of the latter would for instance be to remove the possibility to use multiple accounts at the same time because the game is not designed for this (even if its technically possible).


The first strategy will require some sacrifice of these core principles to maintain a happy and motivated player base. The second strategy will not, but it will alienate players in the long run. This is evident looking at the gaming industry as a whole and the strategies they have applied which led to the downfall of many beloved franchises (sticking to their own definitions of gaming, not the communities).


I can actually respect any decision here, but what I cannot respect, is a half-way, lazy and coward decision to try and keep some elements while eliminating others belonging to the opposite strategy. Let me clarify. If you decide to go for the more conservative approach and stick to the game design stringently and enforce any style or behaviour from players that is not in parity with the games core purpose (ie multiplayer and role play element) then you cannot at the same time keep certain elements which contradicts this, such as banning four accounts on at the same time but allowing two, or allowing people to play untagged etc. It would contradict what you want to achieve on the basis of eating a cookie but still keep it.


Personally I got hooked with Ryzom because it was a SANDBOX MMORPG which I thought was defined as a freedom to creating your own game style (ofc without breaking any formal rules), but it seems that this definition has now been challenged through a quasi-discussion about so called multi-boxing.

#61 Добавлено Paradera 5 лет назад [en] 

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**DEL** Out of topic

You all seem to be forgetting the huge role that ping plays, I also often see on my "Main" that my 2 healer alts heal at the same time.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Heli (5 лет назад)

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#62 Добавлено Elke 5 лет назад [en] 

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**DEL** Out of topic

Edited 5 times | Last edited by Heli (5 лет назад)

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#63 Добавлено Tykus 5 лет назад Многоязычный 

Многоязычный | Français | English
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First of all, multiboxing is indeed the fact of ordering several characters at the same time in a legal way. Anything that refers to an external program also applies to a single character and is punishable by the code of conduct.https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/28406/1 &post187224=en#7
We decided to lower the number of characters that players can use simultaneously because it's obvious that already a small minority of players are affected.
As mentioned above, Ryzom is a game that can be played on small machines, no need to have a racing beast to run it properly.
It can indeed be considered a disadvantage compared to those who have computers capable of running several clients at the same time.
But that's not the point.

We decided to lower the number of characters played at the same time, on the one hand to put the focus back on what makes ryzom's own identity, which is cooperation.
We could have decided that only one client could be launched, but we've set our limit at 2, because in less populated timezones, having an avatar to help with drilling or healing can be quite acceptable, if not essential.

However, being able to afford a "challenging team" alone makes no sense at all. It's a part of the game that disappears. Moreover, as Ulukyn announced at last night's RF meeting, the upcoming additions will help to strengthen cooperation between the players, so our decision was intended to be in that direction.

I hear anger and recriminations, but not all change are easy.


In terms of multiple subbed accounts: A lot of you have multiple subbed accounts, to increase storage capacity, to be able to play different PR at different times. But they don't walk around with all their avatars on the bark at all times.

To have several subbed account, is not necessarily made to have half a team permanently with either.

We understand that some players have based their game strategy on this system and that this change is even more complicated for them. In the meantime, the discussion remains open, as long as everyone expresses themselves politely and stays on topic.

Answers dealing with the use of third party programs will be deleted as irrelevant.

Last edited by Tamarea (5 лет назад)

#64 Добавлено Azazor 5 лет назад [en] 

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***DEL***

Hors sujet, restez dans la dicussion svp

Last edited by Tykus (5 лет назад)

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fyros pure sève
akash i orak, talen i rechten!
élucubrations
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#65 Добавлено Sinvaders 5 лет назад [en] 

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Jorgensen
Maybe it is time to restart the Aniro server and have two different kinds of Ryzom with different codes of conduct.

Well, if you don't see the advantage created at all level by players using multiples account against those who play with only one character ...
Concrete example:
Digging, while a single toon can dig around 400 mats per 20 minutes someone who have 4 can dig 1.6k mats per 20 minutes ... if you don't see how this can bring a disrespectful advantage when grinding a craft branch ....

And +1 to Azazor.

A bit of topic to those who talked about alternate GH for storage. I agreed with you on this point but at the same time why not proposing to create guild missions to increase the storage size available for guilds?

#66 Добавлено Aleeskandaro 5 лет назад [en] 

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It was said this would be rapidly implemented 
Tykus
 In few days, i will post the complete explanation on the forum and when Ulu put the limit I will change de CoC

Please explain why after so many years of standstill there is a sudden urge to punish people who have been playing by the rules, when this effort could be put into implementing the things that have been on the timeline collecting dust.
Ulukyn
Sorry if you misunderstand it, maybe too obvious for us that's not possible to change the CoC like that without discussion.

Thanks Ulu for your response, but there seem to be different takes on this, your response appears to just caml everyone down rather than offering any real solutions, also why is the general attitude of CSR's in charge of informing this so aggresive? Please have all details cleared before you do inform something, the chaos you guys unleash out of lack of preparation sometimes defeats the whole well-intended purpose of adding to the game.
Tykus
Of course it's legal, we could have banned multiboxing... subscriptions have nothing to do with it... we don't prevent you from playing all your accounts, but only 2 by 2...

Also the reply above is not what you expect from someone who supposedly wants to hear player's opinions. It is that of someone wanting to impose a radical change would say, so please do speak up openly about what your plans for the game are and actually do hear players for once.
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I think in order to fix a problem we all agree should be fixed (Botting) you're taking a way too radical stand and punishing players who simply play more accounts, without any use of third party software involved. Why are you aiming to punish those who haven't done anything wrong? I'm sure theres a better way to identify and deal with botting client-side, network-side, or server-side. What is easy it not always what its best.

You also mentioned the real cause of this change to be foreseen imbalances in the new storyline events. 
Ulukyn
And with the storyline that's what we're going to do. Make the story evolve and add new things...


And then the alts issue came up (on my side, as a developer).

With the storyline we will add new challenges. Sometimes the best group (which can be composed of only 4 players) will be rewarded. If the best team turns out to be 4 alts (and this is not impossible because it is in some cases an advantage) it will be rather disappointing for us.
 
Why not impose a partial restriction specifically for these new challenges then? Most of them already barely use the alts for training, you only see one or two players actually mutibox on OPs and others, maybe ban this specific action instead?

Last edited by Bisugott (5 лет назад)

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Bisugott(Atys)


#67 Добавлено Flute 5 лет назад [en] 

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Hello Everyone,

I am reasonably new to the game (only a few months at most) and I play Ryzom because I like the playstyle (especially harvesting and crafting).

The biggest issue is although a lot of the content I like in the game can be done solo, to do it effectively I really need another person and sometimes a 3rd to assist. For example digging, yes can do solo, with a CP’er can get 4+ times the resources in the same timespan, with a 3rd person I can now do it safely in areas where this is a lot of agro mobs (which incidentally will always prioritise me over the juicy herbivore that’s between it an me).

I love the freedom to play the way I want. It even has a section on the front page about Freedom.
Freedom: There is nothing more important
In Ryzom there are no classes to choose. Develop all the skills of your character harmoniously or choose to concentrate on one skill and become a master. You are not forced to choose a faction when you create your character. Join a faction during your journeys, or not.

You don't have to fight in PvP, but you can. Join a guild whenever you are ready for it and build up alliances, or just start your adventures alone or with your friends.

Search for the most valuable materials on Atys to create your own unique equipment with which it is easier to defend yourself against your enemies. Hunt the mightiest bosses on Atys. Conquer an outpost and drill materials for your guild.

Do your own thing or make an impact on the politics. Develop your character in the way you want to and start your own story.
I also love to socialise and there are some very helpful people in chat which is great. But when I play, chat in universe is a majority of languages I cant understand, which I am fine with because I am also happy to play solo. Again your front page has a section on community.
Community: A real one.
Ryzom is available in German, English, Spanish, French and Russian, and features a great multilingual community that is mature, helpful and friendly. Everyone can talk and roleplay in their own language; therefore, it is not mandatory to speak a foreign language.

Join us to be part of the family!


Now to the issue at hand for the decision, Cooperation. You cant force people to cooperate, and as I have shown (in the highlighted sections in the quote) your front page even states I can play my own way which may or may not be solo).

Two comments one after the other by Tykus seem to be conflicting in the desire for cooperation.
Tykus
We decided to lower the number of characters played at the same time, on the one hand to put the focus back on what makes ryzom's own identity, which is cooperation.
If the main focus of Ryzom is cooperation there is nothing on the Ryzom main page that states this, actually the thing that stands out is Freedom: There is nothing more important
Tykus
We could have decided that only one client could be launched, but we've set our limit at 2, because in less populated timezones, having an avatar to help with drilling or healing can be quite acceptable, if not essential.
I wouldn't say essential unless I wanted to dig in q250 areas, and even then 2 is not enough for digging with any form of safety. I am sure a lot of people can do it, but as I said I am new, I enjoy digging and crafting so therefore quite squishy.

I did not spend much time looking through the forums or the main page for anything about cooperation and couldn't find it, but if its a desired identity for Ryzom I should not have to look far, it should be on the main page with Community, Freedom etc.

For all my limited experience (other than OP battles, which I will never be a part of as so far they have all happened at 2am or 3am my time and a game is not so important that I will get up at that time to play it) Ryzom does not reward or enforce cooperation at all. There are no mechanics in the game that distribute loot between all parties involved in the hunt/dig etc. All kill/loot missions must be repeated multiple times as only one character gets credit for a kill.

So for the majority of the game cooperation is not needed at all therefore I cant understand a decision to try and enforce cooperation(which is not mentioned of the main web page) that goes against freedom(which is on the main web page as "There is nothing more important".


Sorry for the ramble.
Flute

#68 Добавлено Sinvaders 5 лет назад [fr] 

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About digging in q250 zone with a fair enough safety, it will come with experience.
Digging in PR is another story specially in q250 zone with the predictable kitin patrol, but same with experience you can manage to be quite safe (learning how to detect pat etc).
For sup digging, alts are giving a non-negligible advantage, you took way less time to emptying a node which result of:
- less troubles with climatic conditions change (you can dig more in a time frame);
- increasing your own safety while digging (you don't need others real people to dig a node while the said spot is really dangerous to be in);

Same goes for super nodes in PvP prime. The use of alts for this purpose is killing what should stay an "end-game" challenge for many others.
Supreme materials are in the top and they should stay hard to collect (digging supreme ask for involvement in this task).
If you are against PvP you can still dig sup on traditional spot in others prime area, but they remain dangerous because prime roots are a very dangerous place by nature and once again the use of alts reduce a lot this dangerousity.

#69 Добавлено Generallee 5 лет назад [en] 

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Tykus
We decided to lower the number of characters played at the same time, on the one hand to put the focus back on what makes ryzom's own identity, which is cooperation.

So, here we go. You want to force players into a certain play style by restricting their freedom. You really need to revise the text and definition of the game on your homepage then. You encourage a behaviour (such as coop) by promoting freedom and curiousity to explore new and creative ways to approach things, you suppress behaviours by implementing restrictions (such as ban for cheating).
Tykus
We could have decided that only one client could be launched, but we've set our limit at 2, because in less populated timezones, having an avatar to help with drilling or healing can be quite acceptable, if not essential.

I don't understand how you cannot see this contradiction. Having an avatar to help with drilling or healing IS multi-boxing (according to your own definition) and is NOT in line with earlier discourse about encouraging cooperation.
Tykus
However, being able to afford a "challenging team" alone makes no sense at all. It's a part of the game that disappears.

Are you kidding me? Who are you to decide if playing several accounts at the same time for a player makes sense or not? For those who do use multiple accounts, this obviously makes perfect sense. I find this highly insulting to be told what makes sense and what does not. Let the players decide what they find meaningful and making sense, not you.
Tykus
In terms of multiple subbed accounts: A lot of you have multiple subbed accounts, to increase storage capacity, to be able to play different PR at different times. But they don't walk around with all their avatars on the bark at all times.

What specific harm is it for the entire community to walk the bark with several avatars (This has not even been an issue for years and years)? If there are specific instances of the game where this could impose a problem, then you should implement the restrictions related to those, such as op fights, RP or other events, not make a general restriction with some minor exceptions here and there.

#70 Добавлено Guarddog 5 лет назад Многоязычный 

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So what happens to those of us who have multiple people in the household who play at the same time and sometimes each use a single alt? Will we get get banned for have 4 accounts activated at one time eventhough we are 2 or 3 people each using one or no alts? Can the "anti-cheat" software distinguish between 1 person controlling many accounts or several people controlling 1 or 2 accounts across multiple computers?

I don't understand how you can stop multi-boxers without also impacting families who play together in a single household.

Last edited by Guarddog (5 лет назад)

#71 Добавлено Jenn 5 лет назад [en] 

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Guarddog
So what happens to those of us who have multiple people in the household who play at the same time and sometimes each use a single alt? Will we get get banned for have 4 accounts activated at one time eventhough we are 2 or 3 people each using one or no alts? Can the "anti-cheat" software distinguish between 1 person controlling many accounts or several people controlling 1 or 2 accounts across multiple computers?

I don't understand how you can stop multi-boxers without also impacting families who play together in a single household.
Hi

1. they said for familly, they would give more accounts

2. what is this "anti-cheat" software ? it exists, the same way, for windows + mac os + linux ???

 

(very curious about this "magic" software...)

Last edited by Jenn (5 лет назад)

#72 Добавлено Zarden 5 лет назад Многоязычный 

Многоязычный | English | Français
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Hello,

First, the game rules are cristal clear today : multiboxing is allowed up to 4 toons, boting is not. Cheaters don't belong here and should be banned. But as long as it's not proven that people cheat (and it doesn't belong to players to prove things, if they want to be part of "the hunt" they should do it privately through tickets), debating about them and specifically saying their name publicly should not be allowed. This has been done for weeks now especially on French Uni. I think this was extremely disrespectful to the players that were targeted by these improvised trials.

Using alts hurts the game? in a way, yes. I see new players training with an alts; why would they bother playing with a real player that will have to leave at some point, may be bothered if he die and may do mistakes? Let's rely on my second self instead! Sure, but by doing so you're going to play the game in a very slow and stationary way. Grinding against aggro mobs, using enchants and switching roles on the go as needed (heal/ele/tank) is in my opinion a much more interesting and enjoyable experience, but it's also more demanding and it doesn't fit everyone. Some just play Ryzom to relax, or are online all day long On and Off. Do these people still belong in the game? I think so, we need people in the game, even if everyone's not able to kill a kitin with a blindfold and a hand tied in his back!

Almost everyone I know have one and use it more or less. I personally have a FTP alt that I use one to CP while diging, or to help me grind my last lvls (~240-250), which is very tedious in a team as experience gets very low. On the other hand I know some players that always play with their subscribed alt, checking for bosses with them, grinding, coming to Opwar; some even have their own guild with this only alt in it. In my opinion, these players evolve in a parallel Atys and should be encouraged to play with others. Which is not what we're doing here.

Instead, we're targeting the visible bit of the iceberg. I know very well Beef, Zauza and Generallee that all have been using 3 alts On and Off over the past few years. They are not lonely players; I've teamed with them more than often, and each of them is a pillar of their guild. For players that are On when no one is around, I think multiboxing is a good way to boost numbers up and allow them and their guild to play every aspect of the game. If there was thousands of players around, it wouldn't make sense, but that's unfortunately not the case on Atys today. Truth is, the heads you're shaving off are pillars of the community, and if they leave the game many will follow. That's not a threat, just the simple truth.

About the effect these players have on OpWar, I'm convinced that it's very marginal. They make heal pods stronger and can deal some ele damage to the opponent, but dying to ele on OpWar in the first place shouldn't happen nowadays will all the supmats around. PvP jewels cut pretty much all the damage. What really win or loose a battle is the ability to move the pod, the good situation awareness of tanks (killing enemy artillery...) and pure damage coming from artillery. Pure number can counterbalance that, but it's not enough (as maras have proven over the last few battles that they handled beautifully).

So to conclude, I think that this decision won't have any positive effect on the game. Instead, it would be wiser to promote collaboration through other incentives. For example there could be some team missions/tutorials on Silan to learn to new players how to heal in team, how to use enchants and switch roles. If some people have no clue about what I'm talking about, I'd be very happy to organize some ingame trainings on how to be switch roles and be more effective with small team of players.

Last edited by Zarden (5 лет назад)

#73 Добавлено Oxxy 5 лет назад [fr] 

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Salut.

Donc si j'ai tout compris ceux qui ont les moyens de financer un ordinateur performant doivent être "puni" parce que d'autre n'ont pas les même moyen?

Vous prenais également des plainte de personnes qui ont eu multiple ban, qui EUX on avouer avoir tricher, qui reviennent 3 mois tout les deux ans pour troll et j'en passe pour des gens qui sont correcte avec tout le monde, partage des bon moment avec leurs amis malgré leur quadra compte, etc ?

Je pense à Beef qui lui aide beaucoup les autres joueurs et qui s'investi du mieux qui le peut en payant 4 abonnement tout les mois depuis plusieurs année, Generallee et Mathimat pareil.

Je trouve ça pas très correcte. Quand nous étions pas en confinements leur 4 abonnement ne vous déranger pas tant que ça .. On verra après le confinement quand il y aura bien 1/3 des abonnements en moins chaque mois si vous aller pas revenir la dessus :)

Et Azazor certe le RP c'est bien mais pas pour tout le monde. T'es personnes pour obliger les gens a RP ou quoi que ce soit. Alors accepte juste que ceux qui veulent pas RP ne le font pas. On est sur un jeu avant tout. Si eux ce qui les amusent c'est d'atteindre leur limite a jouer 4 compte c'est très bien pour eux.

Ça ce plaint d'avantage etc mais l'avantage ils payent pour l'avoir. presque 32 euros par mois voir plus. Donner vous le même moyens ou arrêter de vous plaindre.


Bonne journée.

Last edited by Shiijian (5 лет назад)

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#74 Добавлено Guarddog 5 лет назад [en] 

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Jenn
Hi

1. they said for familly, they would give more accounts

2. what is this "anti-cheat" software ? it exists, the same way, for windows + mac os + linux ???

 

(very curious about this "magic" software...)



I have no idea how they propose to detect multi-boxers. I assumed through a software add on like NProtect or Valve anti-cheat.

So all multi-boxers need to do is claim they are playing with family and they get more accounts?

Either using alts should be banned altogether or there should be no limit. Otherwise there will always be loop holes and endless argument concerning how many are good for the game. If using multiple accounts is considered cheating at any level, then it should be banned at all levels of offence, even with one alt.

If use of one alt is considered permissible or at times essential, then a serious look at the difficulty balance of the game should be considered. Perhaps mob difficulty should fluctuate with the current region or server population. That would discourage people from bringing in hordes of alts to kill bosses as bosses would become more difficult with more people.
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