English

Hello,

I open this topic to have the OOC comments not taking too much room (already taking too much in my opinion, sadly it seems I started with OOC comments) in this thread.

I have read again Daomei's message, and I'm choked by the following :
What did I do exactly so far ? And who did i already drive out ?
Are you refering to Sartyrirca, like Zhoi do later :
If it's so, then I have to correct you : I sometimes met Sartyrirca IG and greet her, trying to begin speaking Ic but never had an answer. I actually tried to include her in my character's relations.
If i did anything to drive her out, I'd like that she explain it herself, in private or here.

If not, then i can only think about Zhoi herself, I don't know any other roleplayer from Hoï-Cho, and she is not driven out. My roleplay has clearly turned opposing her, but it's honestly our both fault, as none seemed to make a step toward the other. Until now, for me it has only been roleplaying matter, though it slowly give me the feeling that it is not, but then weh should have an OOC talk about that.

Actually i would have tried to solve anything between us two in a roleplay manner, but i am tired of her really excessively long writings, wether on forum or with private message, (a part of her character she once said, it has consequences you see ^^) and i never had the occasion to find her, it seems that Zhoi is never connected when i am (my friendlist don't show her) except for assemblies, during which i cannot engage our IC discussion.

So as i already wrote : It seems that you build an opinion on my OOC motivations that is wrong. I can just suggest you to stop making prejudice on me.

Ok, thanks for the open words, and before I start to comment, I want to express that I highly value your engagement in the Witherings, especially, but not only, in Jen Lai. Yet I feel, and that was the starting point of my critique, that you have not been overly sensitive, to say it politely, to the situation in the other communities. And I fear that your behaviour has offended Zhoi, and not only the character. I am telling my personal impressions, and not those of the circles of Hoi Cho or anything else.

The starting point are the occurrences in the Akenak session in Pyr. Akenak Icus insulted Zhoi, and also the Zorai people, equaling them (not only Zhoi in person) as "dogs" and "sucking gingos". Later he tried to cover up his immature behaviour by the absurd counter-accusation that Zhoi had allegedly insulted the Sharükos and the Fyros people.

My sister is Fyros, and I have lived all my adult life in the burning desert, my chosen homeland. In my world, I have been honored by the late Sharükos, the Great Dexton, for services rendered to the empire in defense of the life of the Sharükos, my name was inscribed in a memorial stele which has perished in the Great Swarming. We both can assure and will defend with our blood that Honor Initiate (and former Zorai Ambassador) Zhoi has not said anything that would have been likely to offend neither the Sharükos nor my Fyros brothers and sisters.

In the crisis caused by the immature conduct of Akenos Icus your role has been lamentably dubious. Neither at the session in question nor later, in Jen Lai or in Zora, you did anything to support the just demand of Honor Initiate (and former Zorai Ambassador) Zhoi that she did not, intentionally or unintentionally, offend the Sharükos and the Fyros people in any way. My feeling is that this would have been your duty as a fellow Zorai represantant of circles, compatriot and member of one of the bodies of the Theocracy. I cannot but say that to my assessment you failed that duty.

I am not speaking about demanding an apology from Akenos Icus. As many males, he seems unable to admit mistakes and grow up to accept the consequences. This kind of immaturity is widespread and I do not see a point in educating those who refuse to learn. To my information, Honor Initiate Zhoi does not demand such either.

But I am speaking about you, indeed. Transcripts of sessions of the Akenos of Thesos handed out to me showed that Honor Initiate Zhoi has been further slandered in her absence and your presence, among others as "arrogant as a Matis" and some more. You employed friendly conversation and did not contradict. I cannot understand that.

In the assembly in Pyr Honor Initiate Zhoi did not feel supported by you but treated like an object. Speaking about a present person in the third person without addressing her in person before is considered an expression of contempt in any culture known to me. You may have had the best intention, but your actions rather suggested wangling (magouillage or copinage in your dialect) with the aggressor than solidarity with your compatriot victim.

Though the insult of Filira Salazar Carradini and the Matis people by Akenos Icus was less severe and less blunt than that of Honor Intiate (and former Ambassador) Zhoi, the Matis people, no matter what their descent or dialect, reacted swiftly. While I feel that they might step back a bit from maximum demands, I feel the Zorai reaction, and especially yours, largely defective and disappointing. From your reaction one could derive that you saw the problem not with Akenos Icus but rather with your compatriot.

As to the problems with how to organize the national meetings, I feel you must find a compromise. Personally I have the (informed) impression that the Hoi Cho community is highly uncomfortable with the solutions you proposed. Your problem, and Zhoi's, is that tensions have built up between you and her which should be addressed and removed. I cannot advise so much and am not comfortable with being involved that deeply as I already am. Yet Zhoi always had a key role in the continuity of Zorai life in the Hoi Cho community, and I fear that nobody will be willing to step in when she will be frustrated to an extent that she resigns.

I recognize the frictions in international roleplay and try to contribute to alleviate them. And I am aware that the community of your dialect is not happy with the changes and therefore tends to be bit overly introspective when contributing to shaping our new, common world. Please open your eyes and try to understand that there were other ways which were and are of their own dignity and value. And help to find methods to reconciliate the contradictions.

For all of Atys

Daomei Lin Carthan

Erm, you realize you're roleplaying on an OOC thread in an OOC part of the forum ? ^^
So, i won't answer to this roleplay, as a roleplay, but instead precise : the initial issue between Icus and Zhoi started after the first assembly of Pyr, at a time i had already left.
Although there has been a first argument during the assembly itself, i didn't think it was necessary for me to interven.
On the contrary, i think, because i know how the assembly works according to the akenaks who were leading the assembly, i rather see Zhoi in fault than Icus, or let's say i see them both in fault.

Now about Zhoi's position, to speak openly , which is the purpose of this OOC thread : i feel Zhoi being honorary Initiate has no meaning for me. (Edit : this is one of the reasons i didn't involve in this issue with fyros) You can't oppose me something that existed on Leanon, because i could oppose you that it didn't in Aniro, this kind of argument is just senseless and leading to a dead end.

More than that, I consider you can't represent the Theocracy in any way without being a part of the Theocracy, which is : being initiate. The current situation, from which i don't know anything about the reasons, consequence etc on Leanon, transposed here on Atys make me think that it is just leading to make the Initiation rite meaningless, empty, and is thus threatening any national roleplay, because removing national identity.
This is something i managed to make you all understand with my roleplay, either public or private.
Especially : i didn't react to the first presentation of zhoi, at the first assembly of Zora, because i wanted to know more. And to wait for the constitution of the Theocracy. So far, all i knew is that each local city was free to make changes they find good, as long as it is not contrary to the Constitution.
But when something that was decided by Hoi-Cho, this honorary initiate title, begins to have national consequences like being able to vote like an initiate or being able to be ambassador , i just can't accept that, i reacted then.

How i felt is : former Leanon is imposing something, i resisted in a pure roleplay way.
Once again, it seems to be just inefficient, so here we are, discussing OOC.

Ok, just some additional comments.

All three communities have their traditions. And they have a right to be preserved to a considerate extent.

In the case of Zhoi's title and standing, there were pragmatic reasons why she did not become initiate and was accepted as an official of the theocracy, anyway. Nobody demands that this practice should be generalized. But it would be an insult towards the community of Leanon to demand that this earned standing would not be honored further. Zhoi has represented the theocracy in hundreds of sessions all over the bark, has been honored by the Great Sage, received by the rulers of all four nations. I do not know how many cycles you are in the service of the Zorai people. But if it is even nearly equally long as Zhoi is, you have reason to be proud of.

You are demanding to wipe all traditions of Leanon by not respecting that. Please be considerate. Demanding that Hoi Cho representatives are denied national rights because you do not like their traditions is over the top.

Why in the first place did you allow someone not being an initiate to represent the Theocracy ?

And please be considerate too : why would i have to wipe all consideration i have about citizenship on Ryzom ?
Let's have an axplanation about those pragmatic reason, because if it's like the kamist peoples that are kamist only to have access to the teleportations, honestly, we have a big problem !

First, not me did allow. I am playing ryzom since December, 2010, roughly a quarter as long as Zhoi. And I never obtained any office. I am an independent stateless inhabitant of the burning desert.

You have not to wipe any consideration for future Atys, you may and should work on it. But I do not think that you are entitled to wipe the traditions of other communities.

Whatever the reasons have been to grant that title, office, and resposibility to Honour Initiate and Ambassador Zhoi, they have been granted by the official bodies of the Theocracy, and confirmed by the Great Sage Mabreka Zho who honored Zhoi in person.

So you are challenging not a single person (or character), you are questioning the decisions of the heads of the Theocracy, be it in a different realm. That is far exceeding anything you are entitled to. One could call it blasphemy.

Again and once for all, this is an OOC part of the forum.
Again, and once for all, this never happened on Aniro, that Zhoi has been appointed by Mabreka Cho, so when will you start to explain things instead of imposing it because it was the case on leanon ?

Once more. Not I am imposing, I am stating.

When you demand that we have to forget where we came from, it is you who is imposing. It may have been a different Theocracy which has promoted you as an Awakened, but for me, that happened on Atys, not OOC.

I have not experienced a single english speaking roleplayer who denied that I played a role in defense of the life of Sharükos Dexton, though he was dead at that time in their world and their tradition. We have to find a dignified way to reconcile the differences in our history and our customs.

Would we demand that future officials of the theocracy be instated following former Leanon rules or approved exceptions, I would consider that a transgression and oppose it. Equally I oppose attempts to wipe our Leanon traditions and to dishonour and humiliate our officials.

Well, you have to agree that this is a pretty silly statement, haven't you? For with the same right one might say you never were a representative of the Circles, that none of the Nobles is a Noble at all, etc. etc. - for the simple reason that you weren't a representative on Leanon and Arispotle, and none of the Nobles was a Noble on one of the other servers. I really take a lot with a large grain of salt and quietly gnash my teeth when there's reference over and over again to the Matis having broken the Treaty of the Four Nations, about characters which were named differently or suddenly have family ties where there were none before and so on. Like Richard III I try to smile when people say in "strange voices" that I obviously don't know the Nation's names, because there most likely were different rules and systems on Arispotle, Aniro, Leanon. But your statement here indeed suggests that there is little interest in bringing all communities from three servers under one hat but rather to level them all with Aniro - which would be appealing only to one part of the community, obviously, and fun to them only so long as one single community alone is able to keep the server running.

Whoa, what a long thread this has gotten in such a short time - until I found it just right now. O_o

First of all: no, I did not feel offended OOC by Feylins player as a player up until now.

Alright; at one time I did not really enjoy the way s/he phrased things when asking me as a "compromise" - which was phrased in a rather demanding way - to write translations into the regional channel at the Ranger's "Assembly". Fortunately no German translation was needed, so I lucked out and did not have to oppose Feylins player. Or was it "unfortunately"? Because it surely indicates that only those German-speaking players who can understand English well enough are still attending to international Events nowadays...

Well, I have also somehow known that Feylin's discontent with Zhoi being an Honorary Initiate might not be fully IC too, since I heard someone saying "being an Initiate might be a disadvantage in gameplay to you, but ...". That might have been one of the many reasons for me to refuse making Zhoi into an Initiate when starting with political roleplay - in February 2011 when still wanting to do all rites and building up fame with all tribes. But that has changed already, most especially since the server-merge and the set-back of fame.

The reasons for Zhoi to not strive to become an Awakened are purely IC now. And Feylins player knows.

Still I did not hold this against Feylins player, we're all just humans and not perfect. Everyone makes mistakes.

Instead I - still - do appreciate the roleplaying of Feylins player. I have to point out that s/he has never ever used dirty OOC-tricks during roleplaying, s/he has never tried to impose the server-history of Aniro onto others, s/he has never made mocking OOC-comments and so on. I appreciate her/his work on Taki Zorai and admire her/his Lore-knowledge, even though we might advocate different individual interpretations of course :)

The player of Sartyrica has a rather hard time with having to talk English as it seems. Even though s/he is not bad at it in reality, fast talking is a bit too much to ask. S/he needs some time to phrase things. I really don't know what to do about this, but I still do feel sad that s/he is not having fun with the Assemblies now, even though many more Homins are attending to them than on Leanon during its last months :(

Do I feel driven out of politics?

Well, Zhoi does feel threatened by the Awakened Fey-Lin Liang of course! However it was not OOC, but rather an IC-act to not accept her status of "Honorary Initiate", and to even try to prohibit her to speak as a representative of the Theocracy like she was an ambassador. I do not think Feylin was ever out of character. Instead I believe that the character Fey-Lin Liang is doing everything she does on purpose.

Zhoi believes that all representatives of Jen-Lai will always agree with the Awakened Fey-Lin Liang and follow her in everything just like she was the queen-bee; even if some of her suggestions might not be for the best of the Theocracy. And as the representatives of Jen-Lai outnumber all others, she thinks she doesn't stand a chance whenever she will want something different than the Awakened Fey-Lin Liang.

So Zhoi is in fact afraid that Assemblies will somehow die out if the usual audience should stop attending after the Awakened Fey-Lin Liangs new "rules" should come to pass - and that Assemblies will not being able to cover more than two or three topics (like it has happened at the last Assembly in Zora) if too much time should be wasted by following all these new rules.

Zhoi feels that nothing has changed nor happened politically for much too long already; she is deeply depressed that her attempts to make the Theocracy more lively are still being blocked and postponed and ignored and forgotten - mostly by the Sages themselves though.

Because of this Zhoi sees her struggles as already lost. Yes, she expects to be driven out of politics before long. She feels that she has nothing to lose now anymore - and she is getting bitter, even sarcastic because of that - a side of hers that she has shown only very rarely up until now.

So the Awakened Fey-Lin Liang and Zhoi are having some kind of a catfight IC at the moment ;) Not only because of these issues; since we also have a history of disagreements and suspicions have been adding up, so the last events have just been the last straw to break the camel's neck.

Longwinded writing is some kind of weapon for Zhoi :p But it's also because I as a player do not really like to invest a lot of time in revising and cutting what I have written over and over again. Ryzom is just a game that I am paying to play; I do not get paid for what and how I write ingame or in this forum.

By the way: even if a forum is OOC, why should IC be "forbidden" then? Isn't it just fine to roleplay where so ever in the environment of an MMORPG (massively multiplayer online roleplaying game) - as long as nobody is insulted and the Code of Conduct is not broken? You, Feylin, can of course also answer OOC.
Hm, wasn't the title of the thread "what about me?" :D

Seems now that the real issue is about "not tolerating the histories and customs of other servers"?!

Why do you think the Event Team has asked us to show more respect to each other? For no reason?
Is it really asking too much for you as a player to be tolerant?

Viewing Honorary Initiates who earned their titles because of their services for the Theocracy as being similar to "real" Initiates IC is "imposing" what exactly on you as a player or doing what exactly to international roleplay? What are you even talking about? Aren't you blowing this out of proportions way too much?

Nothing would change - not even a tiny little bit if Zhoi was a "real" Initiate. And you know this very well.

Daomei is right: at the first Assembly (February 11th) we already had votings for national topics (first one being about the transporter of "To new horizons" started by Mabreka Cho) and some more times ever since; Zhois vote has always been counted exactly similar to that of any other Initiate.

So "my" status is not a "Leanon-issue", it has long since become an official part of the new Server Atys.

The idea of having Honorary Initiates was and still is an opportunity for more players to participate in political roleplaying, so that they will not have to leave their guilds nor change their gameplay to something that they do not enjoy any longer.

You might of course oppose this status IC, for what illogical reason whatsoever. But how can you possibly say OOC that someone wants to "impose" something on you by that - as a player? How intolerant can you be?

At the moment there is just one single character carrying a title that is just a little bit different from others, nothing more than that. It could have happened on any server.

Your character had and still has the chance to protest and discuss this. Well, your character has only just started to oppose that after our characters had begun to fight verbally.

This is perfectly logical as an IC-tactics.
But OOC it is not.

After all this long time suddenly claiming that having to accept a "Honorary" Initiate as being a "real" Initiate as a character is allegedly "threatening national roleplay" is ... exaggerated nonsense, sorry to say it honestly.

Do you, Feylin, as a player, really think that I as a player am too stupid to pass the test of "Enlightenment"?
Did you really not notice what Zhoi knows and does, for the Theocracy, and not at all like a "neutral" one?
Why do you choose to ignore to Zhois identity and work for the Theocracy, even OOC as a player?

I can fully accept it that some characters are intolerant and disrespectful, not appreciating the hard work and good-will of other characters, instead always searching and finding fault in whatever little things. But I could never accept anything like this from a player towards me as a player.

You know very well, since I have written this in a letter to you, that Zhoi would not be able to stand being treated like she is now if she was an Awakened. For now she can bear with it, she can excuse it, as blaming it on her being an lowly Initiate. Even if she knows that she is partly fooling herself so she can go on doing politics.

Why did you choose to ignore this reason instead of naming it? Say, could it be that you want to take advantage of this issue to drive my "unwanted" roleplaying out of political roleplay, for OOC-reasons alone?

It was promised to us by the Event Team that all of us - also you from Aniro - will be allowed to keep our character's "histories". They said all of us should be tolerant and considerate towards other character's histories, and that it will be possible to put it all together to make this new server a success.

You have been respectably considerate - well, until now, until this very forum thread. But now I am deeply disappointed in you.

Actually, when you read it word by word, you can apply this to you :p so the title is good
Actually, no, i completely disagree. This is your opinion, founded on your opinion only. If Zhoi would have been an official member of the Theocracy (according to my criterions), i would have involved earlier in your troubles with Icus, everything would have been different.
And what if i didn't see this as a vote ? We conduct the assemblies without constitution, so without clear rules about decision. You call this a vote, i say we just agreed with a particular proposal. If everyone agree, there is no need to vote. And i already explained this to you.
This is simply because you come and say hey, i'm honorary intitiate. Nothing more, and several month later we discover what this means, and because time has passed we(actually I) should have nothing to say.
My point is (and i will answer to Salazar as well) : as for anyone, i accepted all other nobles, and awakened, as such (i don't speak about Akenaks and taliar, because they were newly elected , there is no question about those), i never said to anyone "hey, you can't be an awakened because i know them all, you're not a one of them". I know the meaning of these titles, as i passed a test myself to gain it. But for this honorary initiate title : there has been none. This is completely new, and what, am I supposed to guess what it is alone ? Accept this instantly because this was existing in Leanon ?
We had no explanation at all about this. Being something new and particular to one server only , I say this is a failure and this leads to the feeling i already expressed : something is imposed to us.
Something i don't understand, because i have no informations on it at all.
I cannot judge if i agree or not, i cannot say under which conditions i could see this logic or not in terms of roleplay.
By default, i simply disagree, and i have arguments for that, i already told OOC ones.

On another hand : I agree that peoples shall participate to national assemblies without having the official citizenship. But in this case, i cannot accept that they have the same rights as the official citizens. Or this is making citizenship completely irrelevant, and let's say i feel offended with this idea, having worked to be an official citizen (and more) of my IG nation.
So yes, i am intolerant, if you want, about this.
This is a mere detail, is it really a title that you can carry ? I have never seen it.
OOC i only started now because firstly i tried to keep open-minded, and to know more about this, while at the same time willing not to make it an OOC issue. What i like is roleplaying, not argueing endlessly.

Now that you are aware of this topic, i simply ask you this : can you explain me with details everything that has to be known about how this honorary initiate title appeared ?
This is definetely not something obvious to me. Is it so hard to understand ?

I feel that I have to clarify something (especially because I had not the opportunity for this afterh Hoi-Cho's assembly) :
During first Assembly of the Circles of Zora, Zhoi introduced herself as a honorary initiate.

I asked myself recently, what's the exact meaning of this, did i miss something ? I checked, a honorary anything, at least when you use the french translation (and as it is the only translation, according to my dictionnary - not to a web-translator - I assume it's the same in english) is a purely honorific title, giving absolutely nothing else by itself (no function, no right, no duty as well).
Thus I was right to think in the beginning that this wouldn't mean vote rights, or anything devoted to regular Initiates.

Although, it seems that Zhoi's history on Leanon wasn't reduced to this (honorific only) title, like having a diplomatic role in the past. But this has never been explained to us, non-Leanoners (until too late). Maybe in order to respect our different past experience ? It can be a good reason. But the fact is there was a misunderstanding.
I wanted ot ask Zhoi, IC, to pass the initiation rite, but I never had this opportunity before she acts considering herself equal to an initiate, when I was considering not. This is the main cause of our "catfight", because judging her arrogant, or abusing of her honorific title, I started to disrespect her (IC)

What if we had discussed this before ?
I could have considered her as a diplomatic intermediary, rather than an ambassador, a title that I rather reserve to members of the nation.
Having heard that in Leanon, she received the title of Honorary Initate to thank her for her role as intermediary, I would have accepted it too.
Learning that this would come as well with rights making her equal to an initiate would have still annoy me much, of course. But learning it was given by Mabreka Cho, and not only by Awakened Sartyrica, as I first heard once, would have help me accept it, as an official exception approved by the Event Team (even if i think it's a mistake) and not as something decided by players only, as it seemed to me.
It still poses a few technical problems, like : we cannot use the Zoraï forum to speak about topics privately inside the Theocracy because Zhoi cannot access this forum. Zhoi has no title to show (as i like to see during official assembly) But those can have easy solutions.

Now, why do i think it's a mistake, still ?
Zoraï nation is called Theocracy. Usually, it means power to representants of a religion. But in fact, at least in Aniro, the Theocracy is not only one religion. Even if the Order of Ma-Duk is the official religion, there is what we call the Ancient Religion (or Jenaist Kamism), there are Trytonist and even followers of the Karavan that can be Initiates.
This means it's not the religion which is the fundation of the political system, and citizen rights. It has been an issue for many players on Aniro, because "reality" differs with the word.
Then, if not, why call it a Theocracy ? My answer (because it is not clearly written anything) is that it is the Zoraï spirituality. Spirituality is linked with religion, and I don't think there is something like that, as real political system, that can be closer than the word "Theocracy" to the Zoraï nation.
So, by refusing to pass the Initiation, Zhoi refuses this Spirituality, and thus refuses to be part of the Theocracy.
In my opinion, coming with the honorific title, Zhoi should have been asked to join the Theocracy by passing the rite, but not given the citizenship rights without any further step from her. Because doing so is negating this identity of the nation.

Well, maybe I am wrong, but then I wonder what is the Zoraï nation (it's been a long time that it is not a racial nation as well)