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* secondly I want to keep discussions IC because I cannot stand having fights OOC. Having to take being picked on OOC like it has happened in this very thread here too often would or maybe will quickly drive me out of political roleplay - and perhaps even out of the game Ryzom soon afterwards. Because I rarely play Ryzom for anything else than for RP at Events and Assemblies. As everyone else I am paying to play this game to have fun, not to have my gaming fun ruined.

It is nearly unbearable for me to read that Feylins player does not want to tolerate/integrate roleplaying-specifics of other servers (specifics that allow more players to take part in RP-politics as is desperately needed), to read him/her bend my words (like about "votings") and ask me to "explain in detail" what s/he as a player already knows very well (because of having heared what Zhoi suggested at Assemblies for the benefit of the Theocracy and her work for Taki Zorai; even though she certainly has done even more services for the Nation of the Zorai in the past as well during two RL-years as should be expected).

It was also nearly unbearable to hear Icus' player mocking me OOC during a Tryker-Assembly. OOC I cannot even stand the fact that Icus' player told Nyenors player (who has left the game a while ago by the way...) not to describe a Leanon-specific event in the Forum: while he himself pointed out many times since then that Matis had broken the treaty of the four people and other things that happened only on Aniro afterwards. Even after he was asked by a bunch of players to show more consideration for players histories from other servers (I do not know how the war-event went on Arispotle; maybe the Matis never broke any treaties on Ari?).

If it's "only" an RP-conflict though, then I can take it just fine; since I do not suspect players of being unfair easily and I do not have to take rude IC-words at heart if just mentioned during a dialogue between fictive characters. Yes, I love playing a "bureaucrat". You got that exactly right. And of course every character has a certain personality with their own weaknesses. I enjoy this a lot.

That's why I think it is highly unfair to make me want to change my way of roleplaying. Why do people have to pick on that? Why do people try to force my character to speak differently IC, write in a different/shorter way IC, change my character's view of the world (imposing another "past" on her like a war that she has never experienced), try to make her adapt a certain interpretation of the lore other than her own way of thinking, try to change her status (forcing her to become a "real" Initiate, opposing her Honorary Initiate title that she has worked hard for and still does), rudely ignore Zhois logical IC-reasons and experiences? Not merely IC as an interesting discussion, but OOC coming from other players?!

My roleplaying has never hurt anyone. I'm trying my best to be as considerate as I can and as is still logical, even during fights; OOC and also IC. Why do they have to try and ruin the fun that I find in playing Ryzom by critizising every little thing about my roleplaying they can find, even though it does not offend them in any way? It makes me deeply frustrated.

(timeout got me, this is the second time I wrote this post)

Thank you, Bitttymacod, without your considerate help, I wouldn't have understand Salyn's sarcasms as such. Truly. I may feel ashamed, but I am not sarcastic myself writing this. So you spare us all another misunderstanding (in a ton of them).

I apology to have let this thread go too far. Initially, reading Daomei's comment after Zhoi's IC answer I was wondering if there was an OOC resentment about the IC course of things. But early, Daomei's player explained it was just personal thoughts, expressed in OOC manner, about IC facts. We should have kept the discussions on this.

Zhoi, I think you underestimate the ability that peoples have, to only listen (actually read) to what they want. I don't know if I did it, or if you didn't understand me, but I don't think I know what I asked for. My question is about : how did the honorary initiate title appeared, and how was this appearance played, on Leanon.
Although I expressed myself with vehemence, my purpose was not to force everyone to adopt my point of view about citizenship (I hope so still :p) but to explain my view in order to let you know what pose problem to me. And in return, I expected to learn from you all those things I ignore, so that we can find a way to adapt to the situation.

To summarize :
- honorary Initiate !
- Error 404, file not found. More data required.

I share the will to keep discussions IC, but I think that at this point, it betrayed us. We couldn't discuss IC on the same basis, simply because we had not this common basis OOC.

Somehow, I slowly learned these answers, but I am not sure to know everything yet, and each time I learned something knew, it was another step to IC incoherence : how to explain that a well-known past event for someone isn't for someone else ?

Final note : I felt this message too nice, so : Zhoi, you really should consider writing shorter. :p

Thanks Bittty: I figured the sarcasm would be obvious from the tone .. seems not. Personally I would rather take tags with more damage and less lasting durability, as that's not intended.

Zhoi, Feylin: I don't want to impose a play style on you, this way or the other. As you already noted, this is a valid role and whoever wants to RP something more dynamic or in a different way, is free to do it. Completely agreed.

However, it's clear from the start (to me, at least) that you can't talk about servers IC, about community traditions IC and about differing cultures. "Leanon" is a meaningless word within the single Atys we have now, so are "Aniro" or "Arispotle". Working together to bridge the gaps and discrepancies within the former Lore will require stepping out of character for a while, until everyone is on the same page in the fictional universe.

I wish you can find the necessary creativity to work towards that without breaking character much, while at the same time not dragging this on for some more months :)

(And on a side-note, if this small differend brings so many problems, I shudder to think what agreeing on Dexton's final fate will take, or the other major lore differences. Some community will have to eventually contend with having their history erased, or only preserved in a memorial page.)

When has this whole topic ever been just about one "small difference" like a title only?

Do you believe if just that one question about the title is solved, then all the other things that happened before this and on top of this will be solved too, be forgiven, forgotten and made undone? Not for me. Is Feylin the only person of interest or even existent for you, are his/her feelings the only thing that matters?

That is - still is! - the main problem for all of us, and will stay that way for a long time to come. Wars that happened or happened not, treaties broken by one side or the other or not at all. Kings exiled, emperors dying in bed - Kings who never went away and emperors who fell in war. Personal stories of keeping peace or going to battle, of enemies and friends, of a life lived (often for a long time, even since before the temple wars). This is the situation which separates us all, which makes Atys a modern Babel - much more than the language. References to the past will fail, always fail. Yet to rewrite the past will kill our toons, will kill us. We have to find a way to avoid these references, without making the past undone. The biggest, much deadly problem to the National Assemblies - and moreso if they once take over from the regional ones completely - is the reference to the past, which will always split the three servers immediately. We have to take our positions for granted without questioning them, and mainly without referring to them, for those in politics - in politics for a long time - must have known each other before, mustn't they? If we don't manage to ship around that reef, we'll burst on its shelves in three pieces, and all go down unceremonially.

I apologize for entering this discussion, being out of the game, but i think there is a solution to the problem of different pasts, coming pre-merge.

Of course this solution must be agreed by the event team and the whole community:

---

Given there a re a lot of homins referring to different past history, a big question arises from all the nations: What really happened during second swarm? Something saounds missed or confused....

After some thinking and some nationwide conference, homins of all nations agreed to ask to the high powers to tell them the truth, because it's obvious that somethign strange happened.

A council with both kami and karavan ambassadors woulòd take place at one point, and they promised us to tell us the truth and explain what happened.

What happened?

during the second swarm, a karavan scientist discovered an anomaly in the continuum (unfortunately, karavan are never clear on their scientific knowledge, so homins must take this as it is).
He did an experiment to understand what was the origin of that anomaly and discvered an incredible truth:

The world Atys, apparently a single normal world, was in reality created by the intersection of 3 different worlds, each in the same space but in different dimensions.

The scientist, given the extraordinary discovery, decided to call a kami adept, to discuss with him the discovery.
The kami, despite with cryptic words, confirmed the anomaly, giving the reason of that as a will of Ma-Duk.
Of course the karavan scientist decided that it happened because of the will of Jena...

At the end of their dispute on the origin of the anomaly, they decided to hide the discovery to all the homins that survived the second swarm, to avoid disputes about the origin of the world.

But now the truth is revealed: Atys is a world born from 3 interdimensional worlds, each called: Aniro, Leanon and Arispotle.

---

this is the idea, and you can refine and tune it better, to fit all the RP needs.

Peace and long life to homins.

I always thought it might be a lot easier if each of our characters considered what happened before the Second Great Swarming to our own characters and also that of others (like the stories they tell about wars between Matis and Fyros and the like) as "long, long time ago", just to make it have less impact on the RP of today.

Generally I can only recommend to just avoid mentioning specific dates and perhaps also names IC as much as possible. We all know the major server-differences and we know that we can avoid fighting if we just don't talk about specific topics IC. I have never experienced an English-speaking player from former Arispotle nor a German-speaking player from Leanon mentioning IC ingame details about the "end" of Karan Yrkanis and Sharükos Dexton or the war between the Matis and Fyros under the rule of Yrkanis & Dexton that has never happened on Leanon.

However in other cases you can easily merge server-histories and such enrichen the lore by new details that you can learn - as we found out by talking about Muang Hoi-Gi / Marung Horongi. We just have to get used to the idea that some Homins have told different names of themselves to others or have changed names in the past, and that there are still Homins using more than one name. Just like I have been renaming my guild after the server-merge from the German version to English and like the Sages of the Zorai who have 4 names each.

Because of that Zhoi once told Fey-Lin Liang that it doesn't seem unusual for Zorai to change names or use more than one name. I was irritated even OOC (and IC alike) when the Awakened answered in a categorical decisive way that it is NOT common; because I still think it's not a problem to get used to hearing different names for the NPCs we have gotten to know in our character's past and Lore...

Muang/Marung is one of these examples, indeed. I did an interview with Nung Horongi before he died, as you might remember, and had started to publish his biography. However, there he spoke quite a bit about Muang as a Zorai student, and about himself as Muang's teacher at the university sensing his sleeping power. No family ties at all, but more a case of "mediocrity knows nothing higher but itself, but talent instantly recognises genius". So it's like that interview never happened, and there's danger that all I learned about him since Wyler was shot and Stevano abducted was fundamentally wrong - including, I'm afraid, everything connected to the amber cubes.

Sometimes in RP conversations I use phrasings like "from our part of the world" or so when telling about probably contradictory things in our past.

Somehow I like the idea of Gilgameesh which would need a bit elaboration though. One could assume that the powers awakened either by the swarming or the activation of the powerful rainbow gates evacuating hominkind towards the exile caused a friction in the structure of space and time which brought the different realities together in a new common string of space-time.

I want to stress that parallel word theory, more exactly MWI (multiple worlds interpretation), is a valid interpretation of quantum theory and a premise for a theory of universal wavefunction. So this is not just babbling.

Would be a chance to reconcile the contradictions, to listen and learn from one another without having to re-write history or impose one string onto the others.

What about sayin' Arispotle, aniro, leanon were 3 differents planets of the ryzom project, and elias decided to send teleporters to the 3 planets to 1 new planet "to see what it will be, because it will be fun, LOL"
Or it is the Great Dragon who though there wasn't enough homins on his planet, and decided to teleport some others from differents planets to his one.

I considered Gilga's idea. The problem I see with that is that we have partly the same people in three different "dimensions", and partly not at all. It's worth to think this through, but one should not rush and think it the grail yet. But then, I probably worry too much ...

I strongly believe that this post is a perfect illustration of how a slight misunderstanding can become a full ranged argument -with insulting statements and such stuff that gets the temper high, and people who will suggest I'm an idiot for thinking it's simple when they make such efforts to make it complex.

Why don't you guys make the "Honorary Initiate" status a topic for next assembly, now that you see it's a problem? And why not give a thought at me going to vote for next German chancelor's election, just to figure out the why behind Fey's point of view there? It's a fantasy world, but if you wanna make a political rule that defies real world's logic, maybe the three segments of this community should agree on it, don't you think? Besides, the political situation AND the political rules aren't likely to be identical after the swarm, so that may need some looking into.

But, hey, if you don't feel like it, there's still some room for breaking dishes on the walls. After all, making a point of defining "what is a Honorary Initiate" then discussing this topic in the assemblies of each community before deciding if the position is still politically valid... way more complicated than arguing on a forum... or is it?

or the record i am not trying to say anyone should change their way or how they are or what they do, i did not mention some of my points to cause change only to point out, that many including myself are not likely to read all this

this is ryzom where we should feel free to be ourselves as long as we respect others so, as i respect all of you, enjoy your game and perhaps, consider the long and the short way the serious and the less serious, instead of considering it as changing the self, expand the self. i can make myself read this entire post in all its glorious length and quote little bits and comment on little bits but i do a LOT of reading already in many forms so this is not somewhere i come looking to go for lengthy discussions, be it at meetings or forums or events.

when i am up to it i will even attempt to make summary points of what catches my eye as, each poster's main points for anyone who might want to get the meat of the discussion. it seems like a fruitful one

my take-home so far from most of this is, no one is attempting to attack anyone else OOC. secondly it appears that the difference in lore between servers and, simple lack of knowledge of these differences fuels misunderstandings that can start tiny and become giant-christmas-yubo sized

hi ingy =) you were typing as i was typing so i don't have to go on about talking about that "Honorary Initiate" title in game also instead of here only

-p.s when posting it is a great idea to copy all your text to clipboard before hitting the submit button to not have to retype but i'm sure we all learn this the hard way probably more than once =[

Thank you very much; this is exactly what I'm thinking as well :)

But sadly not everybody thinks that way. Some think that "tolerance" or "respect" means that they themselves should be pleased, pampered and also should be allowed to do whatever they want, even if what they do is killing the gaming fun of other players severly, driving them out of roleplaying or even out of the game.

Tolerance and respect is not something that we can demand solely for ourselves; we also have to grant other people the same amount of tolerance and respect as well. Unfortunately some people totally don't get it - they do not realize how intolerant, unfair and offending they themselves are, they refuse to accept the truth when being told. And even if they are offenders they will still always think of themselves as being the "real" victims.

Having to accept a "honorary" title that the Event Team has clearly approved of for the new Server Atys, which is enabling more roleplayers to enrich political RP and leads to having more political representatives to play together with, cannot drive anyone out of a game.

On the other hand trying to exclude players from national political roleplay all of a sudden after years, wanting to reduce their RP-rights to dominate them, continually critcizing them and picking on them not only IC (while going against their character's fundamental principles/values by doing so and leading "roleplaying" ad absurdum) but even OOC as players - this is what I would call "griefing".

It's really sad to have experienced that most of the Ex-Leanon-players have at first tried so hard to be considerate, to avoid saying anything that would irritate characters from other language groups, to open up political dialogues, to quietly accept unfamiliar customs from other servers, to even adapt their own characters to the histories of other servers more than just a bit - and what has become of that :(

None of our many efforts and cpncessions were ever appreciated by inconsiderate French players, led by a small bunch of pretty aggressive people with much IC-influence on rather many roleplayers of their former server Aniro. Our complaisances and commitments as players were ignored by them; our good-will was abused even. Our characters were pushed over, out-maneuvred, tricked, mocked, out-voted and nagged at; until we as players lost a lot of fun in playing political RP that we had formerly enjoyed very much.

Some Ex-Leanon-roleplayers who had loved roleplaying a lot before the server-merge have now left the game in the meanwhile. Others have reduced playing political RP a lot, and others are arguing about it, demanding actions by the Event-Team; because political RP has become irritating, un-fun, stressy, too hard to handle. And still more players might most likely lose their gaming fun if the Event Team does not act quickly.

To make this matter clear once again: this whole affair is NOT merely about a title. There are a lot of unsolved problems that have occurred, and you can read all about them in this thread. These problems that have piled up will not be solved if only one question about a title is answered.

Still Feylins player wanted to know more "details" about this one title - unfortunately without even specifying this question. Well, this much is all I can say:

An Event-Team-Manager has announced in January that the representatives of Hoi-Cho are allowed to define the conditions of how to become Honorary Initiates, and to fix this in the constitution of the city. However the constitution and also this article will need to be approved of by the Sages of course, and Non-Zorai would most likely not be allowed to become Honoraray Initiates (being said 4 months ago as mentioned).

The same Event-Team-Manager later on made clear that Zhoi was allowed to deliver congratulations or the like as she was/is part of the "government" (a direct translation, not sure about the exact "correct" term). And let's not forget that the Sages and even the Grand Sage have counted Zhois vote (or whatever else you might prefer to call it) equally to the votes of Awakened and Initiates (one per guild) when asking about who was for or against a number of political decisions of national relevance.

Here are snippets of the chatlogs about this topic:
2013/01/07 22:10:01 *Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Ich denke wenn ihr die (Stadt-)verfassung gut gemacht habt es einzelene Verfügung gibt wie man diese heranziehen kann. wie z.B. durch besondere Verdienste zu ehren Intiaten zu ennen.
2013/01/07 22:10:50 * Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Ihr habt doch die Verfassung in der Hand.
2013/01/07 22:11:57 * Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Wenn ihr ihnen zum Bepsiel gute möglichekeiten nennt wie man so was sich verdienen kann denke ich sollte das möglich sein. Immer hin habt ihr euch euren titel ja Verdient Fräulein Zhoi
013/01/07 22:27:07 * Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Was ich zu den ehren Intiaten noch anmerken muss ist das aufjedenfalle Zorai sein sollten, anders wird es sehr schwer werden.
2013/01/07 22:30:13 * Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Ja sicher sicher werden auch nicht zorai euch helfen können. Doch offizielle Posten wird der Große Weise denke ich nicht zulassen.
2013/03/01 22:13:12 * Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Klar macht das einfach du bist teil der Regirung damit hast du das Recht in unserem namen zu Gratulieren