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I considered Gilga's idea. The problem I see with that is that we have partly the same people in three different "dimensions", and partly not at all. It's worth to think this through, but one should not rush and think it the grail yet. But then, I probably worry too much ...

I strongly believe that this post is a perfect illustration of how a slight misunderstanding can become a full ranged argument -with insulting statements and such stuff that gets the temper high, and people who will suggest I'm an idiot for thinking it's simple when they make such efforts to make it complex.

Why don't you guys make the "Honorary Initiate" status a topic for next assembly, now that you see it's a problem? And why not give a thought at me going to vote for next German chancelor's election, just to figure out the why behind Fey's point of view there? It's a fantasy world, but if you wanna make a political rule that defies real world's logic, maybe the three segments of this community should agree on it, don't you think? Besides, the political situation AND the political rules aren't likely to be identical after the swarm, so that may need some looking into.

But, hey, if you don't feel like it, there's still some room for breaking dishes on the walls. After all, making a point of defining "what is a Honorary Initiate" then discussing this topic in the assemblies of each community before deciding if the position is still politically valid... way more complicated than arguing on a forum... or is it?

or the record i am not trying to say anyone should change their way or how they are or what they do, i did not mention some of my points to cause change only to point out, that many including myself are not likely to read all this

this is ryzom where we should feel free to be ourselves as long as we respect others so, as i respect all of you, enjoy your game and perhaps, consider the long and the short way the serious and the less serious, instead of considering it as changing the self, expand the self. i can make myself read this entire post in all its glorious length and quote little bits and comment on little bits but i do a LOT of reading already in many forms so this is not somewhere i come looking to go for lengthy discussions, be it at meetings or forums or events.

when i am up to it i will even attempt to make summary points of what catches my eye as, each poster's main points for anyone who might want to get the meat of the discussion. it seems like a fruitful one

my take-home so far from most of this is, no one is attempting to attack anyone else OOC. secondly it appears that the difference in lore between servers and, simple lack of knowledge of these differences fuels misunderstandings that can start tiny and become giant-christmas-yubo sized

hi ingy =) you were typing as i was typing so i don't have to go on about talking about that "Honorary Initiate" title in game also instead of here only

-p.s when posting it is a great idea to copy all your text to clipboard before hitting the submit button to not have to retype but i'm sure we all learn this the hard way probably more than once =[

Thank you very much; this is exactly what I'm thinking as well :)

But sadly not everybody thinks that way. Some think that "tolerance" or "respect" means that they themselves should be pleased, pampered and also should be allowed to do whatever they want, even if what they do is killing the gaming fun of other players severly, driving them out of roleplaying or even out of the game.

Tolerance and respect is not something that we can demand solely for ourselves; we also have to grant other people the same amount of tolerance and respect as well. Unfortunately some people totally don't get it - they do not realize how intolerant, unfair and offending they themselves are, they refuse to accept the truth when being told. And even if they are offenders they will still always think of themselves as being the "real" victims.

Having to accept a "honorary" title that the Event Team has clearly approved of for the new Server Atys, which is enabling more roleplayers to enrich political RP and leads to having more political representatives to play together with, cannot drive anyone out of a game.

On the other hand trying to exclude players from national political roleplay all of a sudden after years, wanting to reduce their RP-rights to dominate them, continually critcizing them and picking on them not only IC (while going against their character's fundamental principles/values by doing so and leading "roleplaying" ad absurdum) but even OOC as players - this is what I would call "griefing".

It's really sad to have experienced that most of the Ex-Leanon-players have at first tried so hard to be considerate, to avoid saying anything that would irritate characters from other language groups, to open up political dialogues, to quietly accept unfamiliar customs from other servers, to even adapt their own characters to the histories of other servers more than just a bit - and what has become of that :(

None of our many efforts and cpncessions were ever appreciated by inconsiderate French players, led by a small bunch of pretty aggressive people with much IC-influence on rather many roleplayers of their former server Aniro. Our complaisances and commitments as players were ignored by them; our good-will was abused even. Our characters were pushed over, out-maneuvred, tricked, mocked, out-voted and nagged at; until we as players lost a lot of fun in playing political RP that we had formerly enjoyed very much.

Some Ex-Leanon-roleplayers who had loved roleplaying a lot before the server-merge have now left the game in the meanwhile. Others have reduced playing political RP a lot, and others are arguing about it, demanding actions by the Event-Team; because political RP has become irritating, un-fun, stressy, too hard to handle. And still more players might most likely lose their gaming fun if the Event Team does not act quickly.

To make this matter clear once again: this whole affair is NOT merely about a title. There are a lot of unsolved problems that have occurred, and you can read all about them in this thread. These problems that have piled up will not be solved if only one question about a title is answered.

Still Feylins player wanted to know more "details" about this one title - unfortunately without even specifying this question. Well, this much is all I can say:

An Event-Team-Manager has announced in January that the representatives of Hoi-Cho are allowed to define the conditions of how to become Honorary Initiates, and to fix this in the constitution of the city. However the constitution and also this article will need to be approved of by the Sages of course, and Non-Zorai would most likely not be allowed to become Honoraray Initiates (being said 4 months ago as mentioned).

The same Event-Team-Manager later on made clear that Zhoi was allowed to deliver congratulations or the like as she was/is part of the "government" (a direct translation, not sure about the exact "correct" term). And let's not forget that the Sages and even the Grand Sage have counted Zhois vote (or whatever else you might prefer to call it) equally to the votes of Awakened and Initiates (one per guild) when asking about who was for or against a number of political decisions of national relevance.

Here are snippets of the chatlogs about this topic:
2013/01/07 22:10:01 *Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Ich denke wenn ihr die (Stadt-)verfassung gut gemacht habt es einzelene Verfügung gibt wie man diese heranziehen kann. wie z.B. durch besondere Verdienste zu ehren Intiaten zu ennen.
2013/01/07 22:10:50 * Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Ihr habt doch die Verfassung in der Hand.
2013/01/07 22:11:57 * Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Wenn ihr ihnen zum Bepsiel gute möglichekeiten nennt wie man so was sich verdienen kann denke ich sollte das möglich sein. Immer hin habt ihr euch euren titel ja Verdient Fräulein Zhoi
013/01/07 22:27:07 * Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Was ich zu den ehren Intiaten noch anmerken muss ist das aufjedenfalle Zorai sein sollten, anders wird es sehr schwer werden.
2013/01/07 22:30:13 * Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Ja sicher sicher werden auch nicht zorai euch helfen können. Doch offizielle Posten wird der Große Weise denke ich nicht zulassen.
2013/03/01 22:13:12 * Zhienkao Pai-Du sagt: Klar macht das einfach du bist teil der Regirung damit hast du das Recht in unserem namen zu Gratulieren

Well, then, I guess if only the french are guilty of anything... we'll just have to bear the cross and leave all those problems unsolved. After all, it's a linguistic community problem... No french guild has ever been fustigated by its faction for choosing the nation over the religion, after all. As an example of those things from which the french never are the victims.

Good night.

Oh my ...

So this happened after the merge ? I thought it was something from before.
Now you confuse me.

But obviously, there was a mess : how can this be decided in your Hoï-Cho private german assembly and not ever announced and explained in the national assembly ? I don't think that i missed something like that, but this will be discussed IC, rather.

Thanks for your informations. (by the way, sorry if I didn't explained more what I expected, it was the case in my first written #20 post that has been lost, by timeout).

I disagree, it can. Not because it allows more players to involve in political RP, of course, but this is not the only point here.

... I shouldn't end with this note ... erm, see you in game to sort all this out :)

Well. I think the mess and the number of misunderstandings is growing. As far as I understood, it is true that Hoi Cho may have more liberal rules for the city itself for accepting new participants. I did not understand and do not think that such can be binding for the national level unless accepted by all three communities.

With the title and function of Zhoi, things are different. Zhoi was official ambassador of the Theocracy before the merge, and most active representant of the Zorai community. As such she had the function of a representative of Hoi Cho after the fusion. And that is to my understanding what should have been respected from the beginning and had not been to some extent. That had caused irritations, but should be considered settled now to end the quarreling. Here especially Zhoi should moderate resentment and frustration, as there is no alternative to cooperation between the communities.

As Awakened Sartyrica mentioned (during the session at Hoi Cho and earlier in the forums), the original title has not been given lightly. Zhoi's function and title were earned by hard work, not just given for laxness.

Whether one should allow for more such titles for new participants in RP in the future and under which conditions is a different discussion. Personally I do not consider assuming citizenship as proposed by Feylin too high a threshold rather I consider a construction allowing even Trytonists to join Zorai RP quite open and reasonable.

I still hope for an end of the irritations and a constructive cooperation in the future.

Never heard anyone talking about absurd things like that during political roleplay. And I never said "THE french" - instead I always made clear that I am talking about a small specific group of players and a small bunch being their self-acclaimed "leaders". Do not bend my words to make them seem rassistic :(

Also some Ex-Leanon-guilds have unusual alliances not regarding religion as the one and only factor of importance. And there is at least one Zorai-Karavan-guild that I know of, being very loyal to the Zorai, even though the few players left after the server-merge are not exactly fanatics in roleplay and have only visited regional Assemblies up until now.

Instead some French players were the first (at least according to my informations) to suggest to have all outposts in the desert officially lead by the Akenak and have all Fyros-guilds working together by political order to defend these outposts. German-speaking and English-speaking Akenak have agreed to that at first obligingly to keep up good relations to the other Akenak without thinking about the consquences. Fortunately the Sharükos Lykos remembered the peace treaties and prohibitted this nationalistic idea.

Of course I am aware that during Open-World-RP all kinds of illogical things will be said, especially concerning PvP and outposts. Sadly it is very common to use "RP-reasons" as flimsy excuses for inconsiderate actions. No community is without fault at this. And of course there are German-speaking jerks as well. Not to speak of everyone being human and of course making mistakes once in a while; me too.

One solution to resolve all this mess : Zhoi does the citizenship's rite !

All will be resolved in it, moreover we do see that Zhoi feels her like a Zorai, a proud representant of this people... so what's the matter ? Let's go to the rite !

And these she-zorais could fight them politically in the Witherings ! It will create a living roleplay which can seduce more people !

Luth who knows where is the door -->[]

Once again: this whole topic and problem is NOT about only one title! There have been many differences between Fey-Lin Liang and Zhoi, and all of this trouble can never ever be solved by merely finding a compromise or agreement over a single title.

Also this "solution" is exactly what Zhoi vehemently refuses to do!
First of all - Zhoi already IS an Initiate. Not accepting that is an insult to her.
So why should she be forced to do a rite; since she has done much, much, much more to gain her title?
A "honorary" one, true, but Zhoi is still already a citizen and even representative of the Theocracy.

This title was approved of by the Sages; just as the title "Awakened" also is given by the Sages.

OOC this title is a door I hold open for other players who want to take part at political RP. We desperately need more political roleplayers. At the last Assembly in Hoi-Cho a Zorai living in the lakelands has shown interest in this title now as well. And so it has become even more important now to keep and defend this title so we can have more players taking part in political roleplay.

We have not set special conditions for others to obtain this title yet and what it should enable wearers of this title politically since there sadly hasn't been any interest in that before that. But we will now because of the interest sparked - of course together with the Sages, aka the Event-Team. Sadly we can say anything definite about this topic only after the Sages have approved of certain conditions. It will take some time.

Thanks for the obvious solution, Luth, but it's rather something to discuss IG, talking about this in this OOC thread is just too close to forcing the player to do something, regardless of the roleplay. I can't agree with that.
I think you share this opinion too :)
You really want to annoy Zorai, don't you ? :p

I suggest this :
-Beeing able to destroy the national RP a little more by allowing non-citizen to participate in national politics
-Beeing able to get all rites, all NH free TP, be friends with every tribe, and a lot less GP restriction because you don't have the citizen rite.
-Beeing able to do this in every national meeting, because if you can do this in Zorai land, why not in fyros land, tryker land, or even matis land ?
-Of course, you can be a ranger since you have no fame conflict
-So you can theoretically rules all the national politics (excepting marauders, but is it really a nation ?)
Seems fair to me.

I would suggest to close this thread as it seems to lead to flaming and trolling only.

I think that, while the discussion Zhoi referred to was after the merge, her own Honorary Initiation was from before.