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While I agree that the elitism exists in a minority of players across the board, I don't think that is what Gidget is referring to is "empathy" ... the absence of "being able to put yourself in the other persons shoes" so to speak. When PvE players ask about "equal opportunities" (points, special mats, equal access) the answer immediately tossed out is "well no one is stopping you from going there" ... "or no one is stopping you from taking an OP" or "no one is stopping you from earng PvP points".

That's like telling someone who adheres to kosher dietary restrictions that "no one is stopping you from eating a cheeseburger".

The 2nd respponse in this vein is thet a person spends their Time and Effort doing things for their faction and that this T & E desrves rewards .... And while I have not seen any PvEers object to that reward system, many PvP'ers have openly campaigned against against PvEers being able to get equivalent rewards for equivalent T & E investments.

How about giving Rangers access to fame limited (50 all races or 50 kami / kara) mission that one could take from NPCs whereby say .... "Visit every OP on the planet and earn a Rubbarn / Armillo Craft Tool". The objections that I have heard seem unrelated to the T&E portion but more related to the value of the PvP ony reward beung perceived a shaving been diminiushed in some way. If it makes peeps nervous, I wonder how hard it would be to have that "buff" gained from the tool disappear in PvP scenarios.

As mentioned before, on Ari ... the community ignored game mechnics and the players themselves decided to provide equal opportunity access to all rewards to all, something i just don't see happening here. The games viability would i think be improved if the population wasn't divided into haves and have nots.

Why would a person who adheres to Kosher dietary restrictions want a cheeseburger? And what would they do if they had one, stare at it?

The outpost materials and pvp skirts are the product of pvp fighting; why would PvE players want these bloodstained rewards if PvP is such a bad thing?

I'm sure the Rangers will have their own rites and rewards at some point. I'm not against that as long as it makes sense- Rangers can't give out OP mats since Rangers are not involved in OPs at all. If anyone says, "Hey, I want that Ranger weapon which does 10% more damage to kitins," then the response should be "Then become a Ranger."

Placio --

According to the last meeting of the Rangers, Ranger Aspirants can belong to guilds that take OPs.

The Rangers are not against PvP per se, but against PvP actions that would hurt their neutrality. OP wars and PR areas are guild vs. guild. The Rangers don't get involved in guild affairs. That's what Wuaoi said.

I could easily see a group of Rangers getting allies and taking a useful OP and handing out the mats equably to all.

I wouldn't participate, because I don't do PvP, but I am not all Rangers.

P.S. There is already one such mission, Pathfinding:Beginnings that can only be undertaken by high level neutrals.

If Ranger guilds want to take, buy, or negotiate for an OP thats fine. I might even have a q50 Greslin OP that might be for sale :P They would eventually need to defend or hire someone to defend the OP though if it is attacked.

What I understood of Freddy's hypothetical mission was that it would just reward OP mats, without actually obtaining an OP. This wouldn't make sense to me; how would a ranger mission/rite give out q250 egrios, for example, if that OP is already owned by another guild/faction. Did they sneak into someone's GH and steal it? Do the Rangers impose a tax on outposts?

I think the most logical stance on OPs for PvE players, Trytonists, and Marauders would be to destroy the OP system completely. The Kami and Kara created those drills just to incite division amongst homins and to reward conflict. If you are opposed to the religions and conflicts you should take the OPs and refuse to build a drill on them, not say you should have access to the materials without owning the OP.

Let's see... Let's make the game fair to everyone...

So how about occ for maras? Or how about making it so a mara doesn't have to use an alt for everything?

It seems the one and only thing a mara has is four more tp points in PR than any other faction. So now we have kamis becoming maras and staying in a kami guild to get the PR tps.

I just wonder how fair that is....

Also I have personally experienced from complete noob up every underhanded, dirty trick non-pvpers can think of playing against a pvper who is a noob.

Somehow I don't think the system is quite equal.

This is a discussion on PvP not a discussion on how to give PvE players more when they already have it all or so it seems.

Just a thought; it would be nice to be able to tell what faction a pvper is by looking at their name tag.

Faction tags were discussed at the last meeting with event/CSR/communication team, a player asked about adding them back since they used to be available. I'm not sure it makes much of a difference and its not that realisitic if you are strictly roleplaying, but i'm not against new options that dont change gameplay :)

Personally, I don't think it's a matter of PVE players having less rewards than PVP. Even if OP mats are limited to pvp, PVE has the marauder bosses (in theory someone who dislikes any type of PVE world boss content can claim he cannot have access to the best armor in the game).

I think it's more a matter of neutrals specifically being short handed. No access to PR tps is a big deal, and only recently they got 250 TPs with the ranger rite.

And Bittty, the problem I see from a lore standpoint with the Rangers getting involved with pvp is that they're technically neutral in the kami vs kara war. OP wars and supernodes always revolve around kami or karas in some way. Even when maras are involved. So while duels, tournaments and friendly matches may make sense for a ranger, any time they came to compete in an OP war or supernode fight they'd be having to fight against kamis and/or karas.

This is what I understood about this game:
PVP = Player vs Player (involves killing other player toon)

- OP wars
* OP mats a a reward
- SN Fights
* Supreme dug mats as a reward
- Tagged Fights
* pvp points as a reward

PVE = Player vs Environment (involves killing NPC/Mobs)
- NPC boss hunt
* NPC armor HA and LA as a reward
* NPC armor crafting (HA) as a reward
- Boss Hunt (mobs)
* Supreme mats as a reward

The game is designed in such a way that PVP and PVE will intertwined. A PVP player can get NPC armor using PVE while PVE player also can get OP mats as a product of PVP.

Now if a player or groups of player want to do strictly PVP or PVE please refer above if you are doing it right. Even if you are saying I am doing strictly PVE but you are using OP mats then it is not doing the right thing since OP mats are PVP rewards. There is no way in hell that a player can say I am strictly doing PVP unless he is using dug mats since looted mats are rewards for PVE.

So for me there is no strictly PVP or PVE there is only a group of players having fun in Atys who are doing both maybe less PVP and more PVE or vice versa. After all this is a sandbox game.

@Haniel: While I agree that PvP and PvE are intertwined, I think you fall to a fallacy. You are turning in a matter of morale and principle what is basically a matter of choice.

You may choose not to PvP, ok mostly (except FFA regions). Does that mean you must never touch any item being gained by PvP? That's not logical.

A PvP player cannot escape PvE. The mobs will be after her/him anyway, and levels are gained by PvE solely. And without proper arms, armor, and jewels, most PvP is pointless. If a PvP player does not want to do only fistfights clad in a PvP skirt while at level 1 all time, s/he must do PvE, and interact with PvE practitioners, and everybody would consider it outright mad not to do so.

I might avoid or have avoided any PvP all my life, does that mean that I must not use OP mats? Why?

I fully agree that most important is that players have fun, no matter with which apect of the game. Avoiding PvE altogether is simply impossible, avoiding PvP is possible, as is, e.g., avoiding digging and/or crafting. Some are doing so, and those fighters/mages only are entitled to harvested and crafted items, though, be it by trade, against services like protections, or simply by friendship.

Not engaging in aspects of the game is a choice. Not interacting with others is, if not totally impossible, much against the spirit of the game.

Daomei: What is not logical is only thinking that a PvP is only killing each other. Helping a player by crafting his gear to be use in PvP is same as helping him kill his opponent.
Example:
player A vs player B
player A ask player C to craft his gear to defeat B
so the pvp becomes AC vs B

take note that player C is only doing digging and crafting (PvE)

Daomei: By helping in NPC boss hunt or trading your points to anyone who does PvP is another example I illustrated above.

Using the OP mats you gain from trading your services or supreme mats from a player who do PvP is another example.

Let say by friendship you had acquired an OP mats. Sooner or later this friend of yours will ask you for something and it will become AC vs B.

As I said in my previous post PvP and PvE are intertwined therefore there is no such thing as purely PvE or PvP unless you wont interact with other players.

The more I read the better understanding I obtain.

I see as part of the problem here that this was a non-pvp game for what 7 years before pvp was added in.

That's seven years ahead of any new pvper that came in after it was introduced. That's recipes and helicopter dance and knowledge (seven years worth) ahead of any pvper that came in after pvp was introduced.

Now myself I am a straight forward person. I will tell you what I think. I will stand and fight you. I will take my lumps.

But the non-pvpers use different weapons. They don't stand and face someone. They have a different style.

So it's not really PvP vs PvE it's Pvp vs Diggers. ( no offense intended )

So I disagree with Haniel's list on that ground. PvPers are more liable to loot mats than dig mats. Though I know PvPers who are good at recipes and digging.

What I feel like is wrong is if PvP is not wanted and considered not needed here then why offer it on the website. Why take our money and then try to drive us out of the game? Just take it off the website. Make it not part of the game. Then all the little diggers can be happy again.

Otherwise we need to learn to get along. It's not fair to offer PvP on the website, take our money and then make it virtually an unplayable option.

Non sequitur. A PvP player giving me something of her/his PvP gained property - be it sup mat from SN, or OP mat - does not stop doing PvP by that. And when I am interacting with a player doing PvP I am not becoming a PvP practitioner no less than I am becoming a digger (I am one in my own right) by crafting focus armor and jewelry.

Your fallacy is that you judge PvP morally and think one has to do it or reject it. In fact it is not that way. PvP, like digging, crafting, mob and NPC boss (and named) hunting, and RP, is just an aspect of the game. It is an aspect some like and practise while others do not, or not often.

For me, players do exist, not "PvPers", "diggers", "crafters", "RPers" or whatever. All players do PvE (they cannot avoid it) unless they are exclusively sitting around and chat (which, then, is their legitimate choice as well).

When I craft something for somebody, I do not care whether she needs it for whichever legitimate activity in the game. I don't condemn PvP, I just don't practise it. Many do similarly, some choose to participate in OP fights only, or even are only part of a guild which does so. There is nothing wrong with.

The frontline PvP vs. non PvP simply does not exist. PvP in Ryzom plays a minor role than, say, in Eve. Yet there is no "PvE only" server as in many other games. Many if not most players practise at least some PvP or have done sometimes.

The quarrels and preoccupations like those Nehrie is employing of PvPer vs digger vs crafter vs game veteran or whatever may exist though, to some extent. They are similar to those between pre-merge community members evolving sometimes, fortunately, to an even lesser extent, nowadays. They are divisive and should be avoided or reconciled.

The original intent of the threadstarter was to find ways to make PvP more attractive. I support initiatives to do so, and read many of the contributions in this thread as ways how to achieve that, or to avoid wrong moves when trying to achieve it (e.g. offering rewards dragging "PvP farmers for reward" into PvP, which is a secure way to destroy fun for those interested in PvP itself). And I would suggest to go ahead in that direction and contribute in a constructive way.

The original title of this thread is "A lengthy consideration on Ryzom's status as a PvPer".

Anyway what would make PvP more enjoyable for me....

-Let me win every battle!
-Give me PvP points off every kill I make!

MWAUwauHAUghwaughWAUGH

PvP is very much about learning how to lose without taking it personally. Even when we have to invest millions of dappers and 4+ hours in OP fights, hours upon hours getting the materials for our gear, possibly years training multiple skill branches, and setting up multiple action bars.
There are 2 things that make it enjoyable for me 1) pvp can be combined with a moderate amount of role-play and 2) players are more of a challenge to defeat than AI mobs.