English

Virg --

Without getting into the merits/rules of engagement/ etc. of PvP activities, there is a clear difference between camping bosses and killing mektoub packers/mounts. In the former case you are (potentially) denying a player the chance to own something (sup mats); it is a negative action. In the latter case you are taking something they already own and destroying it; it is a positive action.

The difference is clear. Whether one is more of a problem than the other I am not sure, but I have seen no proof of a camping epidemic and it is pretty clear that Rollocks is claiming to be a one-homin epidemic of mektoub slaughter, so there is a clear and present danger (if he is telling the truth) of the latter.

With respect, and heading back to my bunker,

-- Bittty

You would not see any proof of a camping unless you regularly checked bosses, a fact which I have attempted to tell Daomei several times to no avail. Of course there is a clear difference between camping bosses and killing mektoub mounts. In killing mektoubs you are denying the player an advantage at PVP- which is being able to move around whilst using range weapons. Seeing as launcher is extremely powerful killing players mektoubs to limit their range of movement and effectiveness is a valid and useful PVP tactic.

Why a valid PVP tactic needs to be "fixed" I have no idea. Especially as do you see any open hate towards mekkie killing on the forums? Compared to how much support their is to ban camping on the forums?

I voted NO it should not be allowed.
YES changes should be made.

My personal view is that if you yourself want to spend hours on end sitting in a little corner of Atys waiting for a boss to spawn doing nothing but twiddling your thumbs... go for it, it is your choice what you spend your time doing.
But to use alts to do this whilst you are busy digging your mats and crafting is something I do not agree with.

That's quite an ideal world you are preaching.

The reality is quite different. We are still all affected from the post-merger.
Ambitious players still need/want boosted items or other items with expensive mat costs which require a great deal of mats - don't forget that you cannot control what a mob will drop in relation to loot and you can end up with a mixed bag/useless mats a lot of times.

If it was so easy that these avid campers suddenly became considerate, there would be no such debates thriving in the forums. As such, they are clearly not considerate and personally I feel that we should gather our efforts and start to name and shame them with screenshots because despite them making use f2p alts(or otherwise), it will not be long before the real culprits appear.

In fact the claims are unconvincing for a simple reason. In all time since these allegations have come up, I have been patrolling the realms for a couple of reasons, boss spotting not among them anymore(I explained why). Inevitably I came and come across a lot of spots (in fact, most of them on surface and a couple of them in PR) where bosses may spawn, among them not too few of the "important" ones.

Now, when assuming that bosses are spotted by swarms of campers all time, I would have necessarily stumbled over at least a couple of them. In fact, I did not meet any. Instead, I even stumbled about a couple of bosses.

The conclusion is simple and evident: When campers are not there, they cannot spot bosses. In other words: there have not been any campers at many of the usual boss spots (and I am speaking of 250 and 200 regions) for long periods.

Maybe there is some camper somewhere, here and then. But it is simply not the case that swarms of alts, especially makeshift f2p alts, are holding boss spots under close surveillance. These campers are widely a myth.

And nobody so far has provided evidence for such widespread camping. In fact two players have admitted to have camped tree sites with their main and/or subbed alt character. Not that I consider that a particularly good idea, but indeed, I know about not too few players from other guilds who spotted and killed trees, though, and even got some of the most wanted (only once dropping) objects. So even the complaint that by such practices others were effectively denied access to that resource does not hold much water. Anyway, there is nearly a year to rethink tree locations and spawn times, now.

Again, I would like to see the hysteria, suspicion, and blame game to cool down.

Just to throw this in the mix : couple months ago Azad was waiting for Manda, needing pelvis for more than 1 weapon. So he sat and waited in the Gibbads camp. Manda spawns, he calls us to help kill .. but 1 minute later another group pops online and gets the kill before we could assemble. The incident has repeated a few times in a row, until we were considering to screenshot and report the players.

Similarly, I've seen alts popping online and dissapearing again immediately near the Master Florist, with the only reason I can think of being to farm the Lucky Flowers.

You don't have to keep an alt online all the time in order to scout, and in fact doing that risks getting them killed. Popping them online from time to time is more efficient. Not saying it happens with bosses because I haven't witnessed it, but I can *definitely* imagine it as a possibility.

Oh my Ma-Duk you found a few bosses? This completely proves me wrong!

I never said camping with alts will get 100% of all bosses. The majority of people camping will only camp the most important bosses.

I also never said there are swarms of campers thanks for the miss-quote there. What I did say is that camping with alts is a viscous circle and causes more people to camp with alts as was clearly visible with the trees. As people doing regular boss checks find less and less due to alts they may turn to using alts themselves or give up entirely.

Problem with nameds is that they still spawn after fixed time. Therefore someone may set up a timer and pop in at respawn time. Change for that is underway according to the devs.

Periodical login and logout would be a possibility, sure, but I doubt that it is taking place at boss locations at the moment. But that is very hard to prove or disprove, moreover, such practice would not be camping in the strict sense.

It is doubtful whether such a practice would be effective, anyway. It would work only when you would set up a relatively short login interval. Otherwise you would risk to miss an appearance, only logging in to see a party already gathered around a boss, or even the dead boss, or nothing altogether. And please, mind what it would mean to monitor only, say 5 bosses, 15 locations, logging in and out a client in a say 15minute interval, 1 login per minute, everytime starting a new client. I think such a person would be in the nuthouse before having caught the first boss.

You doubt its taking place? How very scientific of you. I suppose seeing as you are a "scientifically educated woman" I should take your word for it.

Yes Virg, doubt is one of the primary sources of scientific progress, dissecting belief and wishful thinking. It is a recommendable practice to doubt the own premises in particular. I try to weigh any argument and proposal before judging about it. So please specify what was unscientific with my reasoning.

People are posting saying they have seen campers. This is definite. You disagree with them and say you "doubt" it happens. A definite vs a doubt. I am sure you must have a quote or two about that?

Ok. Tell me how you do tell a camper from an idler. And tell me why so many boss spots are free from both, campers and idlers, though a camping epidemic is alleged.

I do not doubt that somebody says to have seen a camper, in most cases he may have seen somebody, in some of them his suspicion may have been founded while in others not. In many cases the camper spotting may even have been hearsay. There are studies about propagation of rumours. In this case much words are made around very thin evidence.

A word to Elvanae about my naivity: Yes I believe that the waste majority of all players, no matter whether Kami, Kara, Neutrals, or Marauders, whether Asylum, SA, Seve Noire, or any other, are good-willing, love the game and hate cheating and unfairness. And that is the base one should work along, not starting blame games and pillory, inciting hatred and resentment, and splitting along guild or alliance lines.

People log alt campers on and off when they want to check a boss.. Have you actually been listening to a word anyone says? People have said this many many times.

How do you prove that allegation? I did not see such popping up and down players around boss locations during my patrols, and I look at people I meet, in every region, I frequently do /who (have a macro for).

I did not deny the technical possibility of such, but it would only work efficiently with heavy scripting and botting, and would not even be camping in a strict sense. Botting and scripting are already illegal, no reason to emphasize camping as outlawing camping would not change anything under respect of such practice.

There is such a thing as trust you seem incapable of. Such as trusting many people who have even seen alts log on and off right in front of them. You don't ever check all the boss spawns so I won't expect you to have seen alts. Stop harping on about how you have ever seen any alts camping when you never actually go check boss spawns its getting tiring.

Why does such a thing need scripting? You can log on 4 characters easily at the same time with minimal effort. You can do this quite easily with 12 alts and check the 3 regions most important to you within 5minutes.

Problem with trust is it can't be scientifically proven, a bit like faith.

Don't know about now, when boss camping it was more than just one person from a guild involved and several bosses where being watched for.