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Well, since this is OOC, I think it's safe to discuss the Ryzom bible, if that document is still in use as a guideline.

Regarding magic: The kamis are supposed to be a manifestation of the nanotech engines used to terraform the planet, a sort of AI (artificial intelligence) which gained consciousness. This is what gives them the ability to know everything that happens on Atys, for instance.

The bible specifically says that "kamis are working to integrate hominkind into their nanotech world". This leads me to think that while kamis have control over all other life-forms of Atys, they do not fully understand the genetic mutations that were done by the Colonists to the homins. Since the homins are able to live on Atys it must mean they fit, which also allows them to learn some kami magic.

However, to me it is very possible that homins could possess or develop powers unknown to the kami (and vice-versa, kamis could have powers that homins cannot learn).

Regarding goo: The bible says at some point in the kami history:

2525 - 2550 V.1.0 – The New Beginning

The Kamis know that the biological clock will soon be tolling the end of Atys if nothing is done to check the virus (the Goo). They transmit their fears to the Zoraïs.

To me, it seems like the original developers wanted to make the goo a sort of illness, curable through great effort and only if the planet is not exploited (which of course contradicts the karavan interests). If goo is considered a virus, then over-exploitation of resources would make sense to "destabilize" the planet in that particular spot - the sap doesn't flow so freely, and in its absence goo is free to attack anything.

And now I'll go back to reading your arguments which are actually supported by lore, so much more informed :)

Well, when I was interviewing Nung to become his biographer, it was, of course, my intention to let the light of the Zorai shine brightly ... *coughs*


On Leanon, it actually was Min-Cho, not Hoi-Cho, who took Muang under his wing..

But that's an interesting bit. In the story Nung told me his family's name was always tainted, because they opposed the Cho dynasty and doubtet in the Kami. If it was like that on Aniro, I wonder how a Horongi (Muang in that case) could have been Hoi-Cho's apprentice?

Nung told me (well, Salazar - we're OOC here ^^) that he became a scholar at the Zoran Academy (thanks to members of his family who dabbled in politics) in 2464. Then he first met Muang, who was about 14 years old and a pupil there. Nung at that time taught about Sap, but already was interested in Goo. He felt the potential in Muang, but then Min-Cho, who was always on the search for exceptional pupils and had his spies everywhere, took Muang in one of his student circles. These circles were educated in seclusion. Nung, who was kicked out of the Academy - and exiled, in fact - in 2480 met Nuang again 20 years later, after the Swarming.

As the reaction of Kami towards goo was discussed above, I want to add a detail from the amber cube notes of Nung Horongi (notes to Muang captured and deciphered by homins of the free peoples) about the effect of goo on Kami. Nung stated that, when a smaller dose of goo is applied to a Kami, "the Kami will be free immediately", meaning the loss of the connection with all other Kamis. A higher dose will destroy the Kami.

What is described by Nung as "freeing a Kami" is considered the worst mutilation possible by the Kami themselves, and possibly felt more abhorrent than destruction. From a homin's perspective, it may be considered similar to being muted, deafened and blinded at a time. It underlines the cruel and unethical nature of marauders' experiments with the goo.

And just a note to Mjollren about the document he mentioned: The informations therein are not available to everybody, they are not authoritative in any way and mainly of historical interest. I am not aware how the current developers and CSR weigh the contents of that document, but my impression is that it is considered widely obsolete. For the religions, much of the contents is absolutely blasphemic and intolerable ;). Or, more seriously spoken, It would shake all religion based roleplay to the ground to accept the views expressed there, and I cannot see any constructive outcome for the actions on the planet therefrom. Therefore I would plead to treat it as mere background knowledge of limited use for those who know it.

The basic concept, that the goo is a deadly threat to the living planet which must and can be fought by the homins and the powers, is still valid anyway as it seems to me.

When I saw Mjollren's going to refer to the "bible", I let that posting pass unread. The full ducument was once sent to me, and wiped unread. I simply don't want to know background information not intended to the players; I want to play without knowing what's right or wrong. I don't want to "fake" my character, and I don't want to manipulate it by knowledge which might influence decisions.


Wasn't there a translation of the full deciphered text by Zhoi somewhere? I kept one of the cubes we found until the Exodus ... *sighs*

I have to say, though, that the Zorai - especially before the Great Swarming - often displayed a similar bonding to their own people like the Kami, if not as symbiotic. Therefore one might think that Nung, banned from his home country and his people, knew pretty well how it is to be "cut off", and he might have indeed felt that the exile was cruel and unethical. The reason he returned to the Witherings at the end of his life was his want to die amongst his own people; instead he died imprisoned in the Lakelands.

I'm not sure if the amber-cube-fragments about the experiments of Nung Horongi with the Goo are for/from a Leanon-only-event or if maybe other servers had gotten the same information or parts of it... I have already quoted a link in one of my posts here, mentioning that this event has not really "ended" yet. Here's the link to the text-fragments of a letter from Nung Horongi to the marauder Melkiar once again: http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/13657/2# 2 No, sorry; I don't know of any English version.

When we're talking about "the Lore": in the official German Lore-pages (known as "Chronicles" on http://atys.ryzom.com/) we had also included some more recent events as part of our "history", that might have to be "rewritten" or deleted in the long run, or as Salazar commiserates :( http://atys.ryzom.com/projects/5/wiki/Chronologie2525.

When replying to Laofa's similar concerns "I think it was little spoil, one day, but everybody in aniro says it's the same... Can we re-write this ?" I did not mean any offense against Laofa; instead I wanted to emphasize that we ALL feel the same way about this! I upsets some. Still I suppose that no former server-specific Lore will be "safe" from subsequent changes in the future.

Just like Daomei I also think that the documents called the "Ryzom bible" are no longer the basic ideas behind the Lore, since the documents contain a lot of ideas that have in the meanwhile become completely different from the Lore we have of today.

A considerable number of players from former Leanon don't want anything from these documents quoted in forums or spoiled OOC in any way since they do not want to be influenced by these ideas in their own roleplay unconsciously and also do not want to see others basing their roleplaying on said "bible". Because of this we Ex-Leanon-players have been considerate not to quote anything from this "bible" :)

Even though Daomei will dislike this I wish to explain to Laofa why I have mentioned Icus:

First of all Icus' IC-theories about Goo as well as his rude OOC-words (!) uttered in front of the Event-Team implying that I as a player did't know "the Lore" have been the main reason for me to open up this thread. No, it was not only his "toon" speaking, but everything in brackets ( ) was OOC! Because of this I have posted the two parts of the chatlog in my 4th and 5th post.

During roleplay/Assemblies I am definitely not the one provoking nor starting OOC-comments "often". This would be a false accusation! Instead at many Assemblies it was Icus who was the first one to start OOC-discussions or use OOC-comments; not only during the last Assembly in Zora - as you can read for yourself in the chatlog.

The second chatlog I posted confirms that it was Feylin who started to talk OOC with the Sage Sens about destroying the Goo. (I wish she didn't because I could have called her questioning the Sage Sens's words by later on asking Tao Sian about destroying Goo to confirm "the truth" as being disrespectful towards the Sage :p)

I myself nearly never used any OOC-comments during RP-events during all the years I have played Ryzom on Leanon! Still I am not saying that OOC-comments as especially Ex-Aniro-player are using so often nowadays should be seen as "mistakes"; since they could help us to solve our differences - not only Lore-wise. At least this would be the case amongst grown-ups who use to treat others with respect and civility; but it gets difficult when having to respond to a griefer... (edited)

Last - and essentially - I wanted to name Icus as an example for my reply to Feylin's claiming that she allegedly "notices each detail and points it out". Feylin did pick on me rather often when she thought I made a mistake; that much is true! Even though Feylin definitely is not MY mother! (edited to be a bit fairer, not like this happens EVERY time) However I have never experienced Feylin treating anyone else in this lecturing, overly didactic way that she uses towards me. Especially Icus: he is even supported in his griefing ways by Feylin passively...

I don't think that a sentence that ends with "sorry" (!) should be viewed as "going too far" or as "worse" than a sentence phrased with "seem" - especially since what I said was used to defend the freedom of many and varied theories against one dogmatic but illogical doctrine "How could them teach something they cannot use themselves ... So homin magic being efficient against Goo, while Kami magic can't ? Doesn't seem to make sense." Or as Laofa puts it even stronger: "It's fact in aniro that kami and homin use same kind of magic."

However is this "fact" also part of the Lore of Aniro in any of the Chronicles on http://atys.ryzom.com/ ?

I really hope it's not! I would not want to impersonate a character belonging to a whole race of liars who are sworn to "fight" against the Goo, but still refuse to use the known method - fire like in the forges of the Fyros - against it; and who instead irresponsibly discharge Goo on a large scale at the nature of the rims of the Witherings, thus turning vast areas into giant garbage dumps; even though the Zorai have sworn to respect nature...

If doing this was considered "wisdom" and fulfilling the promise to "cleanse THE LAND" Zhoi herself would not want to be a Zorai any longer for even a day...

As additional OOC-information here's more "old Lore" that did not make it into the game; this time about magic:

The Zoraïs are the Chosen, the Keepers of the Kamis. For them, the Age of Seed will be attained when the other species of Atys have shaken off their mortal coils and returned to the Original Energy, and Atys has given birth to the star that is inside of her. Then all Homins will be immortal and they will travel the universe on shooting stars towards their ultimate destination.

Purpose : Light and life must struggle against the void known as the Ravager of life. This destroyer devours the pure energy and prevents the birth of the Universe. The Ravager spreads itself throughout the world and isolates the sources of the Energy of Origins. Eternal life can only be granted when all the stars have entered into communion and the void has been defeated.

The Zoraïs are the masters of magic in Ryzom. The Kamis taught them the gifts that can transfer death to sap, enabling them to minimize injury and acquire more sap. Unlike the Fyros, the Zoraïs have learnt to their cost that their enemies' swords and axes are just as deadly as magic. Consequently, they have developed knowledge enabling them to protect themselves against physical attacks suffered in battle.

Source: http://www.worldofryzom.com/cgi-bin/wor.pl?page=zorai.html

The people of Atys have learnt their magic with the Kamis. Practising the high arts drains the planet's life energy, her sap. Cautious of the human's selfish nature, the Kamis thus taught their disciple formulas to drain the sap from the caster, and not from the planet herself. Except for the Karavan's members, each living creature of Atys is impregnated by the sap, so they can all potentially use magic. The strict rules imposed by the Kamis greatly limited the use of magic by the humans.

But some magicians tried and managed, to bypass these kamic rules. These magicians were able to increase the power of their spells by directly tapping in Atys' sap. The Kamis promptly discovered this violation, and reacted with much cruelty. Thousands of black Kamis erupted from the primal roots and razed to the ground the cities where the guilty magicians had taken shelter. Since then, the great civilisations of Atys have strictly forbidden the use of this black magic, as it was called after its adepts encountered their dreadful fate.

Despite the Kamis' strict vigilance, black magic adepts still exist today. A careful magician can even use this forbidden lore, with moderation. Indeed, the Kamis only detect those who practise black magic intensely. A black magician has to be cautious to progress. As most of the knowledge from the first black magic users has now disappeared, the only bits of lore left are not enough for a magician to progress correctly, and he will thus need the help of the Kamis.

Magic is based on the association of words of power in order to build a spell. Black magic is also composed of words of power, that can be associated with all the other formulas created by magicians.

Source: http://www.mpogd.com/news/?ID=615

The botany in Matis : the architects of life

The Matis have always been great botanists. Since they moved into the Matia's forests they showed innate talents for plant cultivation. Their harvests were exceptional, and the variety of plant species was such that new uses were discovered every day. The Matis prospered under the kind patronage of Jena and the Karavan. They developed their craft, inventing techniques to manipulate matter in a surprising way. However, nature imposed its limits, and the most visionary artists felt a bitter frustration.

Then the Kamis met the Matis in order to teach them magic, after having taught it to the Zorai. Despite Karavan disapproval who did not like natural spirits, the Matis became studious and ambitious students. They tried to use the magic very quickly in order to make plants submit to their will, so they could create other species.

However the Kamis opposed this and moved away from these overly ambitious disciples. On the contrary the Karavan had always encouraged the Matis to excel themselves. Then it was decided to reveal the secrets of living material, so they could give free rein to their creativity. Thus the art of manipulating flora and fauna became one of the foundations of Matis culture.

So, organic architecture takes its roots in the traditional craft of the Matis, the magic from the Kamis and the strange Technowises' knowledge. It is a living art which stretches the boundaries of possibility and permits the most extraordinary creations. The Matis see it as an outstanding mode of expression, which
elevates the mind and brings it to excellence.

Source: http://mirror.kaetemi.be/www.ryzom.com/development/q-a/answers-to -questions-from-the-boards-2005-07-14.html

Interesting informations, especially the concept of black magic, i.e. tapping sap directly from the planet. That concept would show that homins' normally used magic indeed differs from that of the Kami whom I assume to directly access the living planet's sap. Further on, I do not think that Kamis need incantations, cast times, or cooldowns like homins.

So I might agree that probably the nature of homin and kami magic is the same, as a magic using the sap, and the homin magic probably derived from kami magic (Luth would disagree, here). But there are grave differences, too, as it seems.

Has there been any mention of black magic during the last years, or during the "reign" of Winchgate? Probably not, it would otherwise be rather a domain of the marauders.

But again, I want to stress that none of the concepts of how to deal with goo in the past was "wrong" or less valid. I confess that I have troubles to understand the effect of magnetism on goo, as magnetism, for me, is intuitively linked to Maxwell's equations, and there, goo is hard to integrate. Yet I must accept that and integrate it in our new world. And I would agree that homins never in our "modern age" of Atys achieved to remove goo from larger terrains so I understand the notion that goo in larger quantity cannot be destroyed and sick lands be recovered.

To answer the question " how effects magnetism on goo" its important to know what goo realy is , further i think this effect would be in a biological or chemical way, i dont think there are physical effects.

My question would be "how is it possible to have magnetism on Atys?" but that would be off topic.

Last reference to black magic in game (aniro, i don't know other) : marung horongi, zorai constitution (before merge), and wize quest in zora (Companie of Eternal Tree accuse Black Circle to use it ; you can verify that easily). I found old reference by players too (few guild revendicated be Black Wizard, and other guild sugger they fight them in distant past) but i think it's before beta. But Black Magic has not got direct link with goo. Indirect link : "maybe" it can create or destroy goo but like it's very forbidden, no experiment possible... (and not implemented ^^).
In aniro, during an event, Thesos was contaminated by goo. For fight it, toon plant vegetables who "aspirate" goo in ground and water and want burn it after, in forges of the Fyros. But event team say "no, forges haven't got natural fire, so goo is not destroy". So they throwed vegetable in goo in zorai land.

And repeatedly animator says (in aniro before the merge) : "there are not natural fire on Atys, except very uncommon phenomenon, like Coriolis". I confess, i don't like this. That our fireballs are "magic fire", ok. In Forges of the Fyros and in pyr's gate, why not. Special fire for Flamming Forest, probably, because if you try real fire and sawdust (as the sand of the desert is supposed), you obtain big conflagration.

But, if you enough warm a material like wood or sawdust , you obtain fire, real fire. And homin can make that. before merge we have campfire, they don't seem magic. And for event cited (fire destroy last spot of goo), this fire is created by carelessness of homin ! like campfire, maybe ! So, i think goo can be destroyed by very very hot fire. Difficult for homin to create this, because they don't have utility and so, they can't have technic.

The Forge of Pyr is for armor and weapon with bark, amber, sap, etc : material that do not need a big heat. Not like iron or steel (unknow on Atys outside Karavan). I think it's for this reason that tryker's box destroy goo : it's warm goo very hot, like in solar furnace ?

I have to precise that, in my opinion at least, this "Tryker Box" experiment has doubtful resulsts (in a roleplaying point of vue).
OOC it seems to be a player event, even if managed by an event team, being long ago (maybe previous winchgate) i'm not sure it can be treated as "real" in our virtual world of Atys :)

Another addition:

On the old temple of Ma-Duk outside of Zora it said:

"The Kamis and the Zoraï

In the old days, the Kamis had taken refuge in the jungle after the great fires, where they met the Zoraïs and entrusted them with the sacred mission to fight the Goo. The spirits of Nature developed very close ties with the Zoraïs, leading to the early devotions to the Kamis, who were the living incarnation of the pure energy that created Atys. The Kamis created the masks linking them to the Zoraïs, as a symbol of this spiritual bond. The Kamis initiated the Zoraïs into the secrets of magic. The first magicians appeared on Atys, performing miracles.

Then the Zoraïs' high Magi began to study the arcane mysteries, using sacred writing to transmit their knowledge. They learned the secret powers of lightning, and created the first peoples' magic, the magic of electricity. Using their magic and their knowledge of magnetism, the Zoraïs fought the Goo that was eating away at the forests of Atys. In the name of the Kamis, they bravely battled this plague. They were wary of the Karavan, who led homins away from the path of Enlightenment.
Their unshakeable faith has made the Zoraïs the sacred warriors of Ma-Duk."
http://en.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Kami#The_Kamis_and_the_Zora.C3.AF

The same had been written there in German:

"Mit ihrer Magie und ihrem Wissen über den Magnetismus bekämpften die Zoraï das Goo, das den Dschungel von Atys befiel."