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#38 Añadido por Dainan 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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Tgmage
Well I as a New Player can definitely see where Dainan is coming from although he seems to be very angry about it which is not something I share. I'm trying to be more of a 'When in Rome' type of person here.

I only got angry about it because it's been nothing but grief and drama since Idea 1. I hope you're a bigger person than I am about it. I sure wish I could be. But I can only take getting kicked around unduly for so long before hitting back.

Not a recommended approach for everybody. Maybe someone nicer and more mature will come along and help me to tone it down. (I'm not holding my breath after Dom and Roll, though. Roll I expected, but I thought Dom was bigger than that. Oh well. Live and learn. Good luck, guy.)

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"What doesn't kill me gives me XP. :-p" -Sherkalyn

#39 Añadido por Ulykus 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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"* THERE'S NOTHING MEANINGFUL TO DO IN BETWEEN SILAN AND THE HIGHER-LEVEL AREAS. Just about everything Ulykus mentions is part-and-parcel with everyday gaming on just about ANY game. Good gear? You're gonna need that wherever. Hunting? How else is one gonna gain fighting experience? Digging? Boring once one learns there's little (if any) difference between one Choice piece of Sha from one area and a Choice piece from another, and especially dull once ultimate recipes are discovered and stored. I mean, really, when's the last time anything changed on that front?"

I took my time to point out some of the end-game features of ryzom, because i did read your posts carefully and i thought you were asking for that. _Please_ read my answer carefully too, and ask if you don't get anything. You can do that using PMs if you don't want to be seen as a guy asking questions.

Thanks.

#40 Añadido por Dainan 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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Ulykus
I took my time to point out some of the end-game features of ryzom, because i did read your posts carefully and i thought you were asking for that. _Please_ read my answer carefully too, and ask if you don't get anything. You can do that using PMs if you don't want to be seen as a guy asking questions. Thanks.

You were actually talking to TGMage, not me. I did read your post carefully, though. I just don't see significant difference between what you suggested as end-game goals and what can be done on comparable games. Gear-chasing, loot-finding, and mob-hunting are all basic staples of games of this genre, for the most part, and crafting isn't enough to sustain my interest in the game between Silan and being able to chase the higher occupations in the higher-level zones - which I don't want to do now, since there's a baffling restriction on pursuing them and some people (not yourself) seem rather hell-bent on being jerks about the matter rather than attempting to discuss the concerns.

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"What doesn't kill me gives me XP. :-p" -Sherkalyn

#41 Añadido por Inifuss 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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Dainan
I fell for the politics possibility about a week or two ago and decided to subscribe. Should have done my homework first.

You really should have. But you totally missed the most obvsious and easy way to research, ask us old timers (a few of us in your guild :D) and you would not necessarily have to completely search through an "archaic" forums system - See Ryzom DOES make good changes! :D

As for the rest of your post, I can understand how you see it that way.. the typed word is always easy to misconstrue and hard to hit it spot on. I could read almost every post in this thread in a different voice to give it a different perspective (anger, questioning, helping, etc.). Keep that in mind not only for the replys to you but from you as well.

The entire reason the idea boards are there are for players to discuss the ideas. If someone likes your idea, they might or might not post saying so. If someone doesn't like the idea they have every right to say so as well. It is not griefing but a statement of opinion. Perhaps they do like something the way it is, just because you have a new idea does not mean that the current way is invalid. As far as those offering the ways it can be done (or different manner) they are just trying to be helpful, knowing you are new and may not realize that it is an option, they are not trying to quash your idea by offering such advice.

As far as "meaningful" things to do, again, that is in each of our perspectives. There is a lot of things to do and there is a lot that each of us can do to make the game more meaningful. Besides what has already been mentioned, Ryzom can be highly RPG centered and the way that we, the player, can affect the storyline is pretty unique (there are a few others that let players affect a storyline, but not on the level Ryzom does) and it was only mentioned briefly in another post. You can become part of the political process, interact with live event characters that respond to you, not just some pre-set mission that EVERYONE can do to get the same results, and make a mark on history. These RPG events are what drive the story of Ryzom, not the missions. This also means that each of us have the ability to add our own content (perspective) to the storyline - look at all the wonderful stories written in the Roleplay forum.

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Peace, Luv & Cookies,
Inifuss

#42 Añadido por Gryshnozk 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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Dainan
I fell for the politics possibility about a week or two ago and decided to subscribe. Should have done my homework first [...] since it turns out I'd have to dump my guild in order to participate or be forced to choose a religious side in the game
The reason you can't be involved with certain races' politics is because you are in a guild that hasn't sworn their allegiance to them. I believe the requirement to be either neutral or have the same allegiance as your guild is a left over from the days when there were a lot more people. Since I don't really care or know much about civilizations I may be wrong but, as far as I know, you can get involved with the politics in your current guild's home land.
Dainan
* THERE IS A VOCAL MINORITY ON THIS GAME THAT ACTIVELY ATTEMPTS TO QUASH ALL CHANGE. No joke. There are actually people here that vote against ideas just because they would change their game world. Standing up to 'em just gets more grief. Why would I want to pay for that?
You are correct, I think that avoiding change out of fear is bad almost all the time.
Dainan
* THERE'S NOTHING MEANINGFUL TO DO IN BETWEEN SILAN AND THE HIGHER-LEVEL AREAS. Just about everything Ulykus mentions is part-and-parcel with everyday gaming on just about ANY game. Good gear? You're gonna need that wherever. Hunting? How else is one gonna gain fighting experience? Digging? Boring once one learns there's little (if any) difference between one Choice piece of Sha from one area and a Choice piece from another, and especially dull once ultimate recipes are discovered and stored. I mean, really, when's the last time anything changed on that front?
Yes, there is a lot that it practically the same as in every other game in this genre, but there are also some that isn't.

Gear is always needed.
Hunting - as in finding and killing bosses/nameds which is what I, personally, think Ulykus meant - is both similar and very different from most of the other games. You can't be a successful crafter if you don't have access to plenty of mats, either a few specific materials or a lot of different ones to make slightly less awesome items than if you had all that you wanted.
Digging is needed for both gear and crafting xp. I don't know if I ever have crafted anything without using both dug and quartered materials.
Dainan
PvP doesn't happen anywhere near enough to be entertaining (and when it does happen, it's between long-time players that have managed to gain several masteries - booooooooooring), Boss hunts are pretty much the same thing as regular hunting with the numbers increased, leaving only trekking as the game's more enjoyable pasttime - and that ends pretty quickly, because it's not terribly difficult to join a sightseeing tour and look at these areas. Nothing changes, so there's no point to repeat journeys except for more mindless grinding.
I agree, but many does not. I'd say that forced PvP is usually a bad thing, but there's a reason why it was added to PR and OP battles, the problem now is that most veterans seems to like the relaxed and comfortable lack of war we have now. Also, when you are fighting in groups, every person who can hurt the enemies or heal the teammates is welcome, and one more person can help intimidating the opponents.

For boss hunts, look above.

Trekking and sightseeing isn't something I really care about, but that doesn't mean that other don't either.
Dainan
* THE GAME IS PLAGUED BY STRANGE MECHANICS: I can double-click on my Range Fight stanza and go full-auto, but I can't do the same for my spells. I can only practice the Water Carrier occupation once every 20 freakin' hours. Finding a safe sniper spot for solo leveling is a wash because half the time, you don't even get the experience points for it. The few non-filler quests there are have strange bugs and/or instructions so vague that a walkthrough is *required* in some cases. (Fyros Story 2 is an excellent example. The Daggers quest in AA is another.) Suggest any of these to be fixed, though, and you get the Change Gestapo up your butt.
I actually did the Sage quest in FH not long ago and I didn't have any trouble with it so I can't say much about that. But there are a lot of quests that aren't as well done as should, and some that has only been added partly. I don't mind that though since I has always disliked the quest routine that is a great part of a lot of MMO games.

Also, I would really prefer to have the tiny dev. team focus on other, more pressing, things that would improve the game in a more significant way than adding quests.

Regarding the full-auto spells, I believe one of the reasons you can't auto cast them is because it would be waaayay too easy to play the game with an army of alts chasing your tail. This is the reason I hope it will never be added.

The occupation timer, the way the occupations are made makes them take a lot of time and there are both good and bad things that would happen if you could get to the highest grade in a few days.
The only positive thing about it that I can think of is that more people would do them. The downsides are, in my opinion, that without some big changes it would flood Atys with cats, no one would ever craft without using scrolls and people would use potions as if they were playing Diablo II. The reason some of the produce is worth investing time to get is because they are useful and hard to get by trading.
Dainan
It's VERY frustrating. Not worth paying money for at all, in my view. So what I want to know is this:

Are there good explanations for any of this, or am I just going to be told to shut the hell up and deal with it like everyone else that dares to suggest something needs to be changed or fixed with this game?
I'm sorry but I'll leave this point to someone else. I know it's rude to ignore part of someone's message, but I really can't be bothered to write any more words, I've had a long day at school and the bed is calling for me to be enveloped in it's softness and I really look forward to teleporting into dreamland.
Dainan
Because I'll tell ya right now - if it's the latter, this time I'm firing back. I've been rather nice about some of the attitude I've received while playing this game. I won't be this time. So if you're wanting to discuss this issue with me, I'd strongly suggest keeping it to the game itself and not attacking the messenger.

This time, the messenger's swingin' back. Don't force me to do that. Discuss the concerns civilly or step off.

Gryshnozk dodges Dainan's swing skillfully and launches a heavy body blow, while praying to the great dragon that it will land, hoping to slow down his movement.

#43 Añadido por Olmo 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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Geez Dainan mate, with your imagination you need *others* to tell you what to do to have fun? More importantly, is fun what you seek in a video game?

Most people like status quo, nature of the beast. You are a revolutionary and well enough versed in history to know what that means. All you need now is to come to terms with it being aplicable to yourself. One thing I hope is that you do remember what they say about revolution.

For starters, think how old average Ryzom player is? Despite some of your Uni adventures this whole "nice" aura around the game should give you fair clue. Now these people have RL, quite a bit of it probably, at least cumulatively speaking. It might be 12 hour work behind them, 6 hour grandparenting, any number of things, but contrary to majority of developed world population of similar age, they don't sit down in the evening and turn on TV while switching brain off at the same time. You can't however expect everybody to do quantum mechanics as a hobby. So, ideally there would be this wonderful game that had it all, soap operas and Natural Science article debates, Thermopylae and Woodstock, ... blimey, there is, real life. But of course you can play Eve if you really want to stay digital. I'll go on a limb here, using limited knowledge of you, don't. It will eat you.

No game will ever be what you want it to be. Even the one you wrote yourself. Hell, you make a child and spend 20 years developing them and look at what's our future.

So I won't be telling you what and where and when and how, I'll just tell you where fun is for me. Taking something and figuring out where the fun is for me.

#44 Añadido por Neela 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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What amazes me is that this thread hasn't been locked long ago. Have the mods all gone to sleep?

Guys if you can't engage brain and refrain from abuse, please refrain from posting.

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Elder Of Atys

Chasing the DING!
katriell
You can't "complete" the mainland. If one thinks one has seen or done everything there, one is kidding oneself. But be prepared to "get out what you put in," because the mainland does not coddle or hold hands.
Remickla (atys)
Other games - they give you a cookie whether you succeed or not, in fact you don't even have to participate. Ryzom takes your cookie, eats it in front of you, and slaps you 2 or 3 times for bringing a cookie in the first place.

#45 Añadido por Daomei 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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Neela: I fail to see why it should have. There are practically no insults or personal attacks, neither by Dainan, much less by Tgmage, nor from the posters trying to address the points they made.

Among these points, those of Tgmage seem to me to be more worthy to be responded to than those of Dainan who is mainly uttering frustration. But as long as he does not insult anybody, I fail to see an offense of posting rules in that. I am fully able to sustain criticism, and so are the others.

As far as you mean most of significance has been said by now, I tend to agree. That's why I did not continue commenting.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#46 Añadido por Marelli(arispotle) 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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Dainan
* THERE IS A VOCAL MINORITY ON THIS GAME THAT ACTIVELY ATTEMPTS TO QUASH ALL CHANGE.
Indeed, I stopped participating in Ideas discussions when I realised I was slowly turning into one of them :P

I am aware this a turn-off for a lot of people, but can you blame a game for some rotten apples amongst it's players? I can't think of anything "the game" could do to solve this problem, as you can hardly ban people from expressing their opinions.

#47 Añadido por Neela 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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Daomei (Leanon)
Neela: I fail to see why it should have. There are practically no insults or personal attacks

So you would consider comments like:
acting like a jerk
or
These aren't "bullies". They're jacktards

to be insulting? You wouldn't consider:
So Dainan, when will your points all be spent? Just marking the sad day we won't see you again with this account.

Oh, and: Threatening us? Yeah, _that's_ going to get you a well-mannered discussion

or
As long as we won't have to read your smarmy remarks in unichat, all is good.

to be inflammatory and derogative? I remember a time when all of the above would have been cracked down on and the offenders sent an email telling them to behave.

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Elder Of Atys

Chasing the DING!
katriell
You can't "complete" the mainland. If one thinks one has seen or done everything there, one is kidding oneself. But be prepared to "get out what you put in," because the mainland does not coddle or hold hands.
Remickla (atys)
Other games - they give you a cookie whether you succeed or not, in fact you don't even have to participate. Ryzom takes your cookie, eats it in front of you, and slaps you 2 or 3 times for bringing a cookie in the first place.

#48 Añadido por Daomei 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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Neela
Daomei (Leanon)
Neela: I fail to see why it should have. There are practically no insults or personal attacks

So you would consider comments like:
..
to be inflammatory and derogative? I remember a time when all of the above would have been cracked down on and the offenders sent an email telling them to behave.

You have singled out a small number of offensive statements which were overshaded by a discussion widely concentrating on facts, views, opinions, not insults. Whether or not the contrahents should be disciplined for these few deviations is a matter of judgement of the Mods. As the discussion proper has not deteriorated in the course of postings, it is a valid decision not to warn or censor.

All in all, participants with quite different views, opinions, and playing record have brought up sensible and interesting points, Dainan and Tgmage clearly included (though I regret a bit the tone of frustration in Dainan's statements). There is much in the thread to think about and to learn from, no matter which conclusion one draws.

And still I fail to see reason for extensive policing.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#49 Añadido por Sywindt(Yubo) 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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On the whole this thread is pretty well behaved considering the subject :) Let's try to keep that up.

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Sywindt | Game Master | EN, NL, de, fr

#50 Añadido por Neela 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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I actually spoke to Tgmage tonight in game, first in uni then via tell. Initially I mistakenly thought he was just moaning again about game mechanics like others who have come from games like WoW. During our conversation I realised my mistake, for which I apologise, and changed my impression completely. I now believe that his comments are born from a frustration for what Ryzom should be. I see my old passion in him and that is not a bad thing.

That brings me to the point of my post, an attempt at explaining perspective, at least mine anyway. Ryzom has been around for a long time and has a very troubled history. I, for one, have played this game since its very early beta days, back in the days when gaming magazines were hailing it as a revolutionary concept in MMOs (at that point WoW didnt exist). I played through FBT (hence the Elder of Atys title that I am very proud of) and the very early days of the game going live, I've been through all of the history and it doesnt need re-hashing here. Suffice to say I have a deep love for this game and I don't visit Atys for the ding.

For me it isnt easy to explain to anyone who hasn't lived through Ryzom's history what it means to some of us (try reading Chasing the Ding in my signature for a tiny part of it). To me Ryzom isnt about digging, fighting, shooting, healing or any of that (yet how many games let you do them all with one toon?). It's about the starscape when you look up at night in the desert. It's about the snow scenes in Matis lands (at least it stops raining then). It's about the sunset over Flaming Forest, my favourite time of day. It's about the habits of the creatures if you stop to actually watch them (I was taught to do that by another old timer). It's about how a Varynx circles its prey after a kill before it feeds. It's about attending the memorial to an old friend who died but his family knew he cared so much about Ryzom that his son-in-law brought his character back in game one last time -Sixxus you were one of a kind. You werent the only time I shed tears over Ryzom but you were the one that meant most.

The programmers from Nevrax who made this world created a beautiful, vibrant, varied world full of life and then they put a game in it. The shame is that the original dream has yet to be fulfilled.

You newer players that voice your frustrations about the imperfections have to appreciate that we have been there, we have shared your frustrations and we have, to some extent, come to terms with them. We have been through a lot more than just playing a game. We don't mean to shoot you down, we don't mean to sound like we are attacking you for criticising. We try to just get you to see that with Ryzom things dont change so fast. We try to get you to see things from our perspective but that isnt fair because you werent there. I was as passionate and vocal as any of you new homins (certainly where PvP is concerned; right Jayce?) but now I just go with the flow. Ryzom is flawed, so is life, but at least Ryzom still lives. I for one am just happy to still be able to walk the desert.

To you old timers like me, give these guys some slack, at least they care enough to voice an opinion, they want Ryzom to get better, they want a future, so do we all.

Anyone who cares to is welcome to come see my version of Atys. It may not help but it will give you something to see that you might not have spotted before. I was pleased to find out that Tgmage has.

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Elder Of Atys

Chasing the DING!
katriell
You can't "complete" the mainland. If one thinks one has seen or done everything there, one is kidding oneself. But be prepared to "get out what you put in," because the mainland does not coddle or hold hands.
Remickla (atys)
Other games - they give you a cookie whether you succeed or not, in fact you don't even have to participate. Ryzom takes your cookie, eats it in front of you, and slaps you 2 or 3 times for bringing a cookie in the first place.

#51 Añadido por Tgmage 1 década hace Reportar | Citar[en] 

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What an amazing, thoughtful post. Well done. It definately put things into a lot of perspective (as well as the rest of our posts to shame, lol).

You know sometimes while walking around and looking at things I stop to look at somthing and try to imagine myself in the guys chair who designed that little piece of what im looking at then I imagine all the pieces of the world and get a headache cause MAN Its BIG and Ive only seen a small fraction. Cant wait to see the rest.

Neela, Im glad our discussion turned friendly. I look forward to seeing you in game.

P.S. ya.. it rains a lot! haha

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Tgwaste
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