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Djinn, i find your comments here of immense helpfulness, i applaud your making them. ty ... they are proving to be also for me very helpful and informative 8)

I'm not addressing you,  your experience, your personality or your ego.  Such thinks have no place in intellectually honet debate.  Neither mine nor yours is relevant in any way.  This isn't personal.  It's math.  If you want to provide counterpoint,  skip the derogatory personal characterization distraction and show the math.  


"The law of large numbers is closely related to what is commonly called the law of averages. In coin tossing, the law of large numbers stipulates that the fraction of heads will eventually be close to 1/2. Hence, if the first 10 tosses produce only 3 heads, it seems that some mystical force must somehow increase the probability of a head, producing a return of the fraction of heads to its ultimate limit of 1/2. Yet the law of large numbers requires no such mystical force"

Outside of Ryzom, I don't recognize mystical forces.  Every industry uses the same procedure... Hard Drive MBTF, Tire Mileage Warranty, Life insurance, car insurance, investment.

Yes it's always possible that a set of 10 data points will produce just as accurate a data set of 100 or a set of 1000 ... on occasion.  It's just not as liklely.   The **Law** of Large Numbers favor the larger data set.  It's called a "law" because it has been proven mathenmetically to be unassailable.  That doesn't make the data from the 100 unit sampling worthless ... the 100 and 1000 combined now makes a new data set of 1100.  I hope we can agree that ith just two possible outcomes the chances of black / red at the roulette table are 50 - 50.

Now in 4 spins ... the odds are 50-50, same as a coin toss ... but just one toss astray and the result is 75-25.   If you are going to claim that it is just as likely that 100 tosses will produce 750 - 250, I can only answer "show me the math".  Probability and possibility are two different things, if we can't agree on that basic principle, and the math involved, then we agree, there is no basis for a reasonable discussion.

I'm not going to say you don't have valid points.   They are certainly valid from amy player's PoV and I have made the same arguments myself.... what I do want to say is after looking at missions from different sides over the last 3 or so years while doing them extensively, my position has mellowed. 

Three years ago when I 1st began chasing Tribe fame, I was singing many of the same tunes you are now.   All I can say is, like everything else in Ryzom, every day you learn more.  Were you successful the 1st day your rode  a bike ?  No but you preservered and it got easier.  You been here a while, things have gotten easy and routine ... we have a new thing ... give it some time, it gets easier.  Like a jig saw puzzle, the more pieces ya get in, the easier it is to put in the rest

In an ideal world, nothing would be broken.  But we have to live in the real world ... there are potholes, it rains, kids forget to pick up their socks.  What level of perfection can we expect to be entitled to for ouru $10 a month living in fantasy land.  I saw a coffee cup in GoT ...  I found 3 typos in the last book I read.  My 100 pack of TicTacs only had 99 in it.

Not to make light of your concerns but I went to see the Doc recently because when I move my arm in a very specific way, I get should pain.  So I said "Doc, it hurts when i do this ...He said "Don't do that".  Now of course no patient likes that answerr cause "they wanan do that" ... but the area was irritated and a combination of  a little pain relief and trying as much as possible not to "do that" solved the problem.... the recovery was hastened by looking at the problem from multiple perspectives.  He was joking... but he ws right too.

Let's try that here:

1)  On this Goo Mob thing ... I travel to a tribe camp, I see 5 NPCs that will give me missions. Plus there are several traveling dudes / dudettes.  All told there's some 70 missions I can take from this tribe.  DMs aside for a second, Kill Missions are the least rewarding.  If I want Fame, I'll do delivery / explore.  If I want cash, I'll do craft ... if I want both, I'll do prospecting.

When I'm checking for what i want to fit in my 15 mission limit, kill is always the last choice and this is where most of the broken missions are.  When I see a goo mission,  extremely rare, I skip that mission.   What do I lose by skipping it ?   I just pick one of the other 69 missions available, only 15 of which I can have at any given time.

Getting back on DMs.  Getting a bum mission is disappointing.  So is getting killed by a mob and getting DP, but it happens.  What is the impact ?  You coud simply do another mission ... easy to pick one with more fame, easy to pick one with more dappers.  So realistically, what are you out ? 1) the DM dapper reward is a pittance 2) the token reward is no big thing and thats a risk anyway and 3) the elyps.   No argument there, you prolly want them for something.

But is that any different than the grinch stealing my reward ?   Would you not play the game if one out of every 8 missions was actually designed to fail ?  Disappointing certainly but if its happening less than once in 20 times, is it really a big deal ?   With DMs at center stage now, priorities will shift and the pace of the fixes will increase.

2)  Let's remember that MMOs are designed to be an evolving thing.  Game design involves separate teams and, as targets are revised, one team isn't always in sync with the other.  Given our event history, the goo is also an evolving thing.  I expect that it was envisioned that there would be repeated Goo invasions and as such there would be goo creatures.  The missions were written, and at some point, possibly financial or other considerations pushed the implementation back to a later phase and maybe that phase never happens. 

Now if the devs could wave a magic wand and all missions would be fixed, it would be done ... but, we have to recognize that this takes manhours.   Nobody's living large off the game.   There are 11,000 missions in the game ... when the volunteers sit down to work, do they spend time getting the server back up, killing bugs, developing new content, creating new events  or fixing missions that until now were ignored by most of the population after they hit their desired fame ?  Outside of a few high dapper reward missions, that were repeated by many as often as the cooldown time expired, this substantive part of the game content was ignored.   DMs are changing that focus and as such, it deserves ... and is getting a higher level of priority.

I have been concentrating for the last year or so to max out Tribe Fame; I started chasing the "Spirit of Sally Field" title (where no tribes would KoS me) about 3 years ago... so been at this for quite a while.  Only had the company of 2-3 others over that time to share strategies, NPC and mat locations, etc.   DMs are simply a selection of Tribe + Faction + Nation missions w/ extra rewards; been here just a month.  I do know that each broken mission report is examined; I do know that each mission report gets a reponse and verification. I do know that each verified problem mission is put into a "things to do" database.

DMs are new ... there's a large backlog of fixes to be accomplished and this must be done by a small group of volunteers while at the same time keeping the game up and running.  These people "have day jobs".  We have to ask ourselves, how many hours a week do we put in as volunteers ?  So yes, some things are broken ... With 3 years where missions were a large % of what I do IG every day,  I can say the % of broken missions is not large.  If the  approach was every time a misison is reported as broken, delete it ... does that make the game better ?

I'd urge those who have now taken up missions, to take the time to report them.  Be specific.  Include Mission Giver / Allegiance (i.e. Tribe) / Location / Mission and what makes it broken...include a screenie.

Almost nothing in this game is unsolable.  Go on youtube and you will find examples of Dai Den and a host of other baddies.   And that's the answer I got.  But my position wasn't that it wasn't possible ... The more relevant question is "Is it worth my Time and Effort [T & E] ?.  I went back and explained to support that "if nobody is going to put in the T, E and R (Resources) why bother to have it in."  That's a philosophical question that really only can be decided by those responsible for deciding game balance.   I can see both sides here and Im not seing that one position is any more valid than the other.  Whatever decision s ultimately made, I can accept either outcome.

Do we want to have a game where nothing is a challenge, nothing requires an effort "above and beyond".   I'd like to be able to do everything solo given the state of the population but if everything was easy, would I still be interested in playing ?   What happens after we have everything we want ? ... what's to make us come back ?  Do we want to "finish" the game ?  Is it about the journey or the destination ?  What do we actually need more of such that it's critical that every effort delivers rewards ?  I've been doing DMs for a month and they way things are going, will have no need for Elyps by March.  So yes, while I do have the desire to get rewards for my efforts as often as possible... on the other hand, Im in no rush to finish the game.


Let me take the easy one 1st ... /appzone 855.  We have IG apps, no need to leave game.

https://i.imgur.com/tIsGtMB.jpg

As for the finding ...remember when you were working a mob and then XP stunk and you had to find the next level ...it was some work to find what was just right.  Same for those dig spots ... some were good, some got you dead. eventually like that Goldilocks babe, you found one that was just right.   And when ya were traveling, you tried various routes which got ya killed,,, and over time ya found ya way as you understood / remebered th safe paths.  remeber when you needed to be trekked ... the fact that you are trekking others is not only because you are higher level, you know the routes better.   This is no different.

Remeber when you found your dig spot for shu ?  Was it easy ?  Did you use BM ?   Then you flagged it and it was easy.  Same thing here.  You can find all the NPCs the same way.  Theres a list of all the NPCs here that you can print out.

Tribe Fame List

Most of the NPCs will be in or around the camp ... if you don't have their locations down from hiding in them or getting killed by them,  silenda / BM will allow you to flag them.  Do you use the boss macro ?  Using the same principle, create a macro for all tribe NPC or list the ones on your mission list for the day ... run around spamming the macro and looking for scroll icons on the compass set at 250m.   Or ask around.  I have had stretches of bad luck, over the past 3 years but reached out for help finding elusive NPcs ... asked in region ... anybody seen Jow Bloe today ?  Asked those who had completed maxing out that tribe.   Yes, frusutrating at first, but it gets better.

The best example I can give ya is Kitin Lair .. when I was level 3 or so I was terrible frustrated by continuously getting killed ... I got to the point where I would be happy to get 10X DP so i didn't have to worry about it.  But after a week or so i got good at it... I learned what triggered the attacks I learned how to watch for the kinch, I learned how to avoid the kizoar ... by the 3rd week, I was going down every day and no DP at all.   Then the egg room the pouka patrols made it interesting .. again, died a lot till I learned the patterns ... once the rules were understood, it was cake.

BB and EI I found terrible frustrating to travel in ... now, after spending time there, no worries.  In EI I learned to travel counterclockwise instead of clockwise and everything was simple.

Is it ? ... Cause it's imaginary ...t I have never actually encountered it.   It was a supposition on my part in that I imagine it could happen and suppossing that if it did, would that be "broken" ?    Again, I would find both answers acceptable if it actually occurs.   I have encountered "Kill (4) Yelks 189 or higher"... and then I find them and kill (3) ... but I have to kill (2) other yelks in the spawn to get an immediate repop w/o waiting.  Or I can just run a bit further a way and kill (2) out of the neighboring spawn.  It won't be long before cuttlers or whatever take out the remaining yelks, but I can not say for certain that it does not exist.   When I can't find something, I have to wonder "is this possible" ?  I have no way of knowing but I have yet to encounter it.

1st off, as with much of the complaints about DMs, I don't see the need to exaggerate as the season only last 4.5 days.  But again, this is an imaginary scenario.   I imagine it could happen ... but I have never encountered it with Mobs.  I certainly have encountered a mission mat being out of season in the region that the mission is in.  So  I  just dig it in a different region ... no harm no foul.  I probably dig 55% of mission mats regardess of region of origin in desert 40 % in Void.  Spend more time in those regions so like everything else associated with missions ... familiarity / experience increases efficiency.

Figuring out what to do when you are a beginner is difficult with everything.   Whats to balance ? ... line them up alphabetically... do three occs, after 2 days move to next 3, rinse and repeat.  Miss a day ... where's the crisis ?  I look at my inventory ... count my mats ... I have 72 of these, 72 of these....oh only 36 of them things, I will do that one tomorrow

So far ?  it's been a month and most folks have been doing it far less.   There's 11,000 missions ... that's a lot of content to familiarize ones self with.  If you stopped chasing fame when you hit 100 nation and faction, or 50-50-50-50 then yes, you are at a very significant disadavantage. I think it's fair to say that no one who has been working tribe fame to a significant extent is having difficulties.  They have already seen anf flagged a high % of the missions and already have all the NPcs flagged.

It's irrelevant how many years peeps have played the game.  But how many weeks, months or years one has been focusing on mission is.  Its unarguable that starting DMs with every NPC location flagged and every mission mat flagged is a huge advantage.  But once you have done that, you will be in the same position and it won't be "hard" anymore.

How many folks have you heard say they b hated digging  ... got up to 220 in magic and melee and then were saying "Oh now that I got past 60, it's  a whole different experience.   How good you are at something and how much one enjoys it depends on how much experience they have had and what knowledge and practice they had going in.  Who ever loved music lessons when they started ?

Like any new task, it requires experimentation, it requires thought, it requires developing strategies, it benefits from using available tools.  Its why most of us are here ... it's challenging.  You don't excel in Ryzom by having quick twitch muscles in your fingers, but you will benefit greatly by using the muscle between ya ears.   No need to be a genius, consider all options / actions before they are taken.  And when you learn something, if ya can't keep it in ya head, use a tool to remember it.  Take 15 tribe prospecting missions ? ... invest a few minutes writing down or typng in a  spreadsheet what mats, where you find them and organize your route ...  or you will be wasting tons of time runing back and forth all over the plant

I was terribly inefficient when I started doing Tribe Missions, I didn't know where the NPCs were, I didn't know the routes thru aggro areas in places I didn't frequent or where the mobs were.   I benefitted greatly from talking to players who "showed me the ropes".  I found 30 or 40 NPCs that weren't on any maps.   If ya like the tribe chart referenced above has had a few more added.

Yes the player base is diverse ...and that's one of the diffculties for the support team.   There's an overwhelming mindset whereby  each player wants time spent on what they want and resents spending time they have no interest in.  So if you don't want to do DMs don't do them... stay with NH till you are satisfied with the % of broken missions.

But I would encourage you to stick with it ....

a)  It gets vastly easier over time.  When i started, i was just as frustrated as you are.  Since DMs started, I have seen many of the same missions 3 or 4 times ... they were easy for me the 1st time because I had everything flagged already.  Once you're at it a few weeks, you will be sailing smoothly I usually finish all 7 in between 30 and 50 minutes.

b)  While its frustrating not to be able to complete everything 100%, in the grand scheme if things, it's really not all that of a big deal.  If you are doing this for the rewards as a neutral, you are matching NH with just 2 missions a day.  id have to go back and look at my old post but even with fame = 100, you'd only need to do 5 missions.  If you got the Goo mission or the Kidinak mission, you doidnt invest any time, if it was kill a super herbie, you didn't attempt that either.  So we're really not "out" anything when we get a broken mission other than "It cuda been more" feeling.

c)  Trust in the fact that over time, the missions will be tweaked  ... I have a reasonable expectation that truly broken ones will be fixed ... hard ones i don't feel strongly either way buti don't have any issue wiyth anyoine having a different poisition either way

This would be quite challenging to answer word-for-word, so instead I'll just cover the general ideas:

- As far as I'm aware, season-restricted mobs do exist. If you rememer, the other day I was trying to find an Awesome Kipesta for a mission. After 50 minutes of combing two regions (KoD/GoU), I sent a ticket. Answer? "Use the spawn in Underway Arch" -- and no, looking back on all the times I passed that location while trekking, the mob is definitely missing some times. It was certainly not there the 3 times I passed during the same day.

- Regarding the learning curve, sure, I get your point and I would normally agree to it. Ryzom generally has a steep curve. But, to my mind, daily missions are supposed to be picked in such a way to provide an overall gentle ride, or at least to make for a progressive difficulty. Instead, we had the entire stock of missions dumped in the rotation, with several bad apples in there -- and the testing was left (again) to the players.

Again: you and me are still there and subscribed, it's not us that we have to consider. It's the vast majority of players that get put off by the game in several different ways, one of which being the artificial difficulty stemming from this perpetual state of beta-testing-at-the-expense-of-the-players.

- The "kill a spawn to get different mobs" thing definitely exists, I already gave the Fairhaven example. Looking back, there's a similar situation with the kipees around Zora.

The game's concept of "one spawn consisting of the same mob having different levels" runs contrary to what most people would expect, especially since the game never teaches you how spawns work. You have to figure it out completely on your own -- a good majority of people don't.

If this kind of problem doesn't come up in the list of daily missions, so much the better.

- The issue isn't with having a game where you must go "above and beyond", but rather with the expectation that comes with a certain kind of mission (or goal). I have no issue if the players have to figure out how to even begin killing a puzzle boss like Bodokin or Cratchakin. But the T&E required for daily stuff should be lower, imho.

-Typing with the previous point: the impact of dubious quality content is that it produces frustration. Again, you and me are still subscribed and logging in, the standard to compare to is the beginner-to-average player. If something produces too much frustration for them, they'll quit regardless of what other advantages the game has. If you remember, you had a Bunny making this exact same point.

I know talking about it in the forums won't change things, due to the team's tiny size. But at the very least, I'd prefer if we called the issues by their proper names. If one won't acknowledge something is potentially an issue, it won't really get a fix anytime soon...

@FyrosFreddy - Maybe it's all a huge miscommunication, but if we can't communicate then we'll never agree.

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@Laoviel - Didn't you read the fine print on the ToS? By creating a character, we all signed on to be Beta-testers because there are not enough devs and volunteer testers to do quality control.

Also, any mission that can be done during any part of the year in under an hour is fair game be a DM year-round and leaves at least five hours a night for any player that isn't a lazy casual who has less than 27 masters. After all, the only players that matter are ones who have the patience to treat a game like a full-time job that requires a 2-year degree before applying.

We do agree that nothing will be fixed anytime soon. The real question is whether or not our feedback actually matters. I have about 7 years of evidence leading me to "No" and very little to counter it.

C'est ce que j'ai trouvé ou ajouté au tableau des insectes. J'ai rassemblé toutes les tâches liées aux missions brisées (dans le sens de cible manquante valide) sous la tâche #9325 :



Tout nouveau rapport est le bienvenu. N'oubliez pas de fournir l'ID de mission si vous pouvez l'obtenir.

Slight pet peeve: when clicking on the "Mission Booklet" button (in the journal window), you are taken to a page with 3 tabs. By default it goes to the Achievements tab, first one in list. Could it maybe go directly to the "Daily Missions" tab, since that's the one I'm seeking if I clicked the button?

Done

I'm afraid something isn't right. If I just logged and I click on the "Mission booklet" button, I get the following error:



If I click once on the "Daily Missions" tab name, the list is displayed correctly.

Also: if I manually switch to another tab (e.g. "Achievements"), then close the window... click the "Mission booklet" button again... the window opens on the tab I last clicked, instead of redirecting to the Daily Missions. So it seems this fix would only work once (and not even once, right now) :)

No... what does not stand to reason is why factual discussion of the issue on topic is not taking place and instead sidestepping to personal attacks and name calling.  Especially when you previously asked me about your playing time calculations and I explained what I will repeat again.

Before the  attempt at throwing shade for what you choose to think is "playing time", you might have considered that many folks rarely ever log out. Especially, considering your tag line, you may log out when your done playing .. but perhaps you might have considered that not everyone is playing when logged in ? No ?

Have you ever seen ~ Fyrosfreddy in a chat window ? That's because I don't bother to launch rocketchat when I'm at work eating lunch, or whatever, I just alt tab to the game that's running in the background. I may have evolver running 24 hours to develop a new recipe, checking when taking a break from shoveling snow and peek IG to see if I have any PMs waiting.

We go days w/o seeing Sarpedonia and he might be present for maybe 10 minutes over 3 or 4 days. While working, sleeping, eating, volunteering, our toons often remain logged in. Ryzom is played by many folks throughout the world, I often leave my toons logged in for days in a row so as to allow guildoids to leave messages on things that they need or for others to ask questions. You ever think it's weird that ya never see ~Freddy in chats ... you log in from web apps , I just alt tab to a the game instead of Rocket chat.

Finally, thousands of hours were spent creating and revising Bunny Tools over the last 14 years. Originally the math was developed from patch notes and observations only.   Later, after the game went open source, game data was used to refine things.   Also spent 100s of our helping Arc with accuracy revisions to KipeeCraft.  The Forum posts for Race Fame, Tribe Fame, occupations, developing recipes, etc  and other guides ... again, same thing ... development of these items requires one to be in game. And also had many helpers with some of these efforts ... especially the exe mats tool and the still uncompleted PR tools. These were left in PMs on screen as the day went buy and continued while sleeping.

Many tasks are daunting when you first start. A large % of the player base has a master before they even start harvesting. When asked why the most common answers are "It's hard, ... it's boring... I don't like it ... it's not fun" .... sound familiar ? I was one of them.

But then .... I actually tried it and low and behold ... once I got past the early stages, it was not boring, I enjoyed it. That change was not impacted by how many hours I played the game, how many masters I had ... it came from 1 thing and 1 thing only ... I actually made an effort at doing what was the subject of discussion. I had low angle, I had low speed, I had no knowledge with where the mats were and safe ways to get there ...waahhhhhhh ! This is not fun !

There is nothing new about DMs. They are the same missions that have been here for 15 years. No doubt the 1st time folks discovered Rites, "these are hard, how am I supposed to find the NPCs ?". But then the walkthrus were placed on the forums and now the stuff that was too hard has been completed by almost everyone.   Some people won't tackle a task till there is no effort involved.  Just like that song .... "That ain't workin' that's the way you do it; Money for nothin' and your chicks for free". Occupations are a great example. Figuring out all the recipes was "too hard" ... but then it kinda got "fun" once all the recipes were posted and no effort was involved.

Every choice in game will be decided by whether the reward is worth the time, effort and resources. DMs are no different in this regard. Some folks won't want to bother until you can read a step by step "to do list" on how to complete the mission w/o investing any T & E.

My acceptance of DMs had nothing to do with how long I played
.. how long I left my puter on and toon logged in while living a normal life as a business owner, father and community / professional volunteer, how many masters I had or hpow long I had actually played the game.  The only thing it did have to do with ... and hence the actual difference in our experiences is that I had actually done missions that weren't on a list somewhere.

There are parts of the game that have nothing to do with earning rewards or grinding levels.  AsmodeusMogart set a goal of completing every mission in game.   Why ?  Ask the guy who climbed Everest  ... because it's there.   Having already accomplished the goal of having a safe haven in every camp, I set out to get max fame with all tribes.  Why ?  because they are there ... its "content".  And that is the "crux of the biscuit' so to speak ... they why which explains the different experience.

Just like digging ... once you have the mats flagged, one you know the safe paths to get there, once you know where the NPCs that give the high paying craft missions, the rules to Kitin lair, it's ceases to be "hard" to do any of those things.  You just have to make the time investment in learning the ropes ... Just like occupations, if you actually did the work, it was hard ... then it wasn't.  If you didn't do the work, just benefited from others T & E ... well welcome to earning ya way.

Again, time spent in game, number of masters is irrelevant.   The time you spent digging in a region made it easier to dig in that region because it's the very thing, the specific thing that gains the necessary knowledge that makes it routine or easy.   Of course if you never or rarely did it, it's harder because you don't have the experience doing that ONE thing.  In other words, missions are just like everything else in the game ... the more you do it, the easier it gets.   Starting to complain the 1st day in doesn't really supply one with a valid PoV.

Yes, it's more difficult in the beginning ... it's supposed to be.  I had problems finding NPCs ... that made it hard, now i have all the spots flagged ... easy.   And I didn't have the benefit of blue flags, .... I had problems finding Mission Mats, but with the aid of BM / Silenda and asking other players I can find almost any mat.    I was spending about 2.5 hours a day at the start ..earlier this week, had my best day w/ 31 minutes.  Some days I just do quick ones as too busy to be in game (still logged in tho),  otherwise engaged or just not motivated .

But to date ... (DMs IIRC were put in game Dec 2)

January Broken Mission Rate:  3.30%
Febuary Broken Mission Rate:  3.90%

Total No. of Broken Missions Reported in 250 regions:

Loria: 7
Void:  2
GoC: 1
Desert: 1

With 11,000 missions in game ... not really a big thing

In closing, I had the same frustrations as you when I started doing tribe missions ... Rob+ was a great help in and later Asmo.  The exact same experience I had with digging ; hated it till Jesse got me started and gave me tips ... by level 60 it was bearable... before my 1st master I was amazed how much easier it was the more knowledge that was absorbed.

EDITED: Typos

If we can stick with the issues in the game and set aside the personal comments, I don't see this being an issue.

As to whether it matters, I would think Ulu's and Moniq's answers address the topic better than I could.