English

Wow. I'm sure that Lore say Kami learn magic to homin. In french, so maybe in other too, no ?
And for me, if they learn that, they can use it. Parralel with trainer is good : "Trainers can teach athletes how acrobatic moves" in general, trainer are old athletes... they can make movement in youth.

It's fact in aniro that kami and homin use same kind of magic. I think it was little spoil, one day, but everybody in aniro says it's the same... Can we re-write this ?

Parralel with dust or nuclear waste is maybe modern, but good... just for that : we can "clean" without "destroy". Kami are very strong, but goo is the only weakness : they don't act in them, it destroy them. Homin are protected, a little : so kami use homin for that.

History of goo is connected to story of all atys, in particulary secrets of kami and karavan. So, we can gather element for anim team, but they have secret lore with more info and ultimately they're only to can say "this is possible way to destroy goo". In aniro, three way attested by anim in event : natural fire, tryker's box, and magic of Marung Horongi.

Hehe, but doesn't seem to make sense is slightly different from doesn't make sense :p

Yes I always notice each detail, and point it out. Even if felt too criticizing, at least I try to leave no place for confusion.
Let's go on with the topic.

Well, Laofa: the German Lore does not state that the Kami have the same kind magic as homins have! Does the French Lore claim that? However I already confirmed that the Kamis have taught homins magic mentioned "in general" in the German Lore just like in the French Lore.

Believe me: many trainers really CANNOT and also were never able do the same moves as their trainees, sometimes outstanding world-record-setting athletes, can do. Trainers might know how it should work out in theory, but the athletes are the ones who can make it an reality with a flexible well-trained body :) Also: you should about people bringing up birds and "teaching" them to fly, or training dogs to sniff out illegal substances, or teaching pigs to find truffles and so on? As Kamis and homins are completely different races, this shouldn't be such a bad comparison, no? ;)

"Tryker's box" - now that sounds interesting! :) On Leanon I don't believe we ever heard of Muang Hoi-Gi / Marung Horongi ever "destroying" or "healing" Goo. And I do know a lot about it. We had troubles with animals he had altered, some changed to giant size, others to very small, plaything-like size though. Muang/Marung is considered by most homins as a very evil character after all; except for Marauders and their sympathizers - we even had a "Muang-fangirl" on Leanon :D You might want to try asking Neira about her "Muang-beach fashion-calendar" ;) And yes, she's a Tryker - somehow obviously.

Yes, it is possible that the theories that our characters, the homins we play, have had for a long time will prove to have been wrong assumptions or lack of (secret) knowledge in the future. Maybe even parts of the Lore in our chronicles might prove wrong; as these have been written too by homins IC; and homins can be wrong, they don't know everything... And yes, the Event-Team will have to decide about this.

For some parts the German Lore will have to be changed, for some parts the English one, and for some parts the French Lore will have to be changed. Just please do not expect YOUR Lore as the only "valid" one like Icus tries to impose IC on others as often as he can - some of us Non-Aniro-players are really fed up with this!

And by the way: Icus was never "corrected" by Feylin, neither OOC nor IC, neither ingame nor in the forum, whenever he said things that were clearly "going too far" (except one time when saying something IC about the Kamis); especially towards other characters/players from Leanon. :(

Can you, Feylin, really not imagine what kind of impression this makes?

I would first like to thank all who contributed to this thread with informations showing different as well as common historic traditions on the different worlds. And I agree that we have to find common grounds especially where either informations or their interpretations are different. We should do this without polemics and with due respect for any of the different traditions.

And I think that we should forget about past conflicts, but in the future strictly tell off fools blaming homins from other worlds that they had not read or known the Lore. This should be especially the case when it deals with buddies from the own old world.

About the Kamis, I know that some homins, e.g. Taliar Luth McFay, even contradict the notion that the Kami brought to the homins the ability to use magic, he considers that as kamist propaganda and believes that magic is an inborn property of all homins. This may sound shocking or even blasphemous to Zorai, anyway it is a perception based on the Lore, too.

Undeniably the Kamis are a powerful force, yet they have susceptibilities homins lack, at least to a wide amount, especially against Goo and fire. So I do not see a contradiction in the notion that Kamis are able to teach homins things they cannot do themselves, even those they will never be able to do. As an example: I may train a monkey to climb up a steep wall to a partially opened window, stick his tail through the opening and switch off the light or something else there, even though I would never be able to climb such a wall and lack a tail to reach through a narrow opening. In the same sense Kamis may train homins things they cannot perform themselves. This is a difference compared to an old athlete training younger ones.

Why not, magic kami and magic homin is not the same. But in that event, this changes lot of things, either past and present. This theory explains lot of events in atys, like comportement with kamis and goo, but others too... and I don't want spoil more, because we are in secret of lore and I prefer people discover it in game, or only if they want spoil.

I'm ok with that :It is for that we discuss here, no ? For compare version and find mutual lore. Like I say in my first reply here, english is very hard for me, so if what I said could means the opposite, please, forgive me.

But what Icus are cited ? He has a big knowledge of Lore, but he's not an expert on goo and he didn't speak here... If he talks in the last zorai meeting, it's only like toon, with generic knowledge. And, ok, I could not follow all your altercation this day (not translated, too fast). But I'm chocked by this new attack, in this post, to Icus. He's not perfect (my little loved troll ^^), yes, but Feylin is not his mother (I think his mother doesn't play ^^), I'm surprised that you asked she has to correct him. One day (but not here, it's not the subject), I want serious discussion about relation around Icus : I think primary misunderstanding contamine good relation. If it left you, no problem, but your disagreement is often found to disrupt meeting with off topic. "You" is not "you, zhoi" but "you all".

To return to the goo, I'm sorry because link in my first reply is in french, but I have no idea how translate this (hum, like me... f.. automatic translator ^^" ). You have story of the tryker's box and text where Marung seems destroy (and create) goo.

I would suggest to all to leave the things around the last Zorai meeting out of this discussion. I admit that I was also angry about Icus' shit and disappointed about Feylin's spineless reaction. But to discuss it here would taint this interesting discussion.

Well, in my discussion with Nung, arranged by the Aeden gouvernment - and that was a meeting I really treasure, not just because I'm on the heels of Muang since his first appearance (apart from the day Wyler was shot) - he clearly stated that Muang is much more talented than him and knows much more about Goo than he, that Muang has a special affinity to it. He said, though, that he "discovered" Muang as a kid at the Zoran Academy and told him everything he knew about Goo, until Muang was taken away from him and brought to a place where the Zorai scholars close to Mabreka (while Nung as a Horongi was hardly accepted) educated the highly talented Zorai children. Nuang, so to say, had him "infected" with his philosophy by then, so it seems, so Muang did not become a proud follower of Ma-Duk, but like an ill tree sprouted eccentrically. If they are family, almost everything the dying Zorai told me was a lie - especially the important bits, which in fact tell us something about education in Zoran. It also fascinates me because it suggests that these madmen - the boy taken away from his family for education and the old, bitter loner - developed some kind of affection for each other, probably the closest kind of affection both ever felt, which gives the whole thing a human, a somewhat touching dimension. One almost like the father, the other almost like the son. That this all is/was for nothing, for Hekuba - that thought, indeed, is endless frustration to me.

Pardon me, but aren't you making a mistake talking about Mabreka here ? You talk about Zoran Acadamy, Zoran ! Meaning from before the First Great Swarm, Mabreka is only born during the swarm. I think it's rather the Sage Hoi-Cho in your story, am i right ? In Aniro, Muang Horongi was known as the apprentice of Hoi-Cho before the Swarm, while Mabreka became the apprentice of Hoi-Cho after the swarm.

Exactly, Feylin. But I'm old. I'm allowed to be confused with names. ;)

If you were Zorai, you would have been punished for this, but i am patient with underlings :p

Well, since this is OOC, I think it's safe to discuss the Ryzom bible, if that document is still in use as a guideline.

Regarding magic: The kamis are supposed to be a manifestation of the nanotech engines used to terraform the planet, a sort of AI (artificial intelligence) which gained consciousness. This is what gives them the ability to know everything that happens on Atys, for instance.

The bible specifically says that "kamis are working to integrate hominkind into their nanotech world". This leads me to think that while kamis have control over all other life-forms of Atys, they do not fully understand the genetic mutations that were done by the Colonists to the homins. Since the homins are able to live on Atys it must mean they fit, which also allows them to learn some kami magic.

However, to me it is very possible that homins could possess or develop powers unknown to the kami (and vice-versa, kamis could have powers that homins cannot learn).

Regarding goo: The bible says at some point in the kami history:

2525 - 2550 V.1.0 – The New Beginning

The Kamis know that the biological clock will soon be tolling the end of Atys if nothing is done to check the virus (the Goo). They transmit their fears to the Zoraïs.

To me, it seems like the original developers wanted to make the goo a sort of illness, curable through great effort and only if the planet is not exploited (which of course contradicts the karavan interests). If goo is considered a virus, then over-exploitation of resources would make sense to "destabilize" the planet in that particular spot - the sap doesn't flow so freely, and in its absence goo is free to attack anything.

And now I'll go back to reading your arguments which are actually supported by lore, so much more informed :)

Well, when I was interviewing Nung to become his biographer, it was, of course, my intention to let the light of the Zorai shine brightly ... *coughs*


On Leanon, it actually was Min-Cho, not Hoi-Cho, who took Muang under his wing..

But that's an interesting bit. In the story Nung told me his family's name was always tainted, because they opposed the Cho dynasty and doubtet in the Kami. If it was like that on Aniro, I wonder how a Horongi (Muang in that case) could have been Hoi-Cho's apprentice?

Nung told me (well, Salazar - we're OOC here ^^) that he became a scholar at the Zoran Academy (thanks to members of his family who dabbled in politics) in 2464. Then he first met Muang, who was about 14 years old and a pupil there. Nung at that time taught about Sap, but already was interested in Goo. He felt the potential in Muang, but then Min-Cho, who was always on the search for exceptional pupils and had his spies everywhere, took Muang in one of his student circles. These circles were educated in seclusion. Nung, who was kicked out of the Academy - and exiled, in fact - in 2480 met Nuang again 20 years later, after the Swarming.

As the reaction of Kami towards goo was discussed above, I want to add a detail from the amber cube notes of Nung Horongi (notes to Muang captured and deciphered by homins of the free peoples) about the effect of goo on Kami. Nung stated that, when a smaller dose of goo is applied to a Kami, "the Kami will be free immediately", meaning the loss of the connection with all other Kamis. A higher dose will destroy the Kami.

What is described by Nung as "freeing a Kami" is considered the worst mutilation possible by the Kami themselves, and possibly felt more abhorrent than destruction. From a homin's perspective, it may be considered similar to being muted, deafened and blinded at a time. It underlines the cruel and unethical nature of marauders' experiments with the goo.

And just a note to Mjollren about the document he mentioned: The informations therein are not available to everybody, they are not authoritative in any way and mainly of historical interest. I am not aware how the current developers and CSR weigh the contents of that document, but my impression is that it is considered widely obsolete. For the religions, much of the contents is absolutely blasphemic and intolerable ;). Or, more seriously spoken, It would shake all religion based roleplay to the ground to accept the views expressed there, and I cannot see any constructive outcome for the actions on the planet therefrom. Therefore I would plead to treat it as mere background knowledge of limited use for those who know it.

The basic concept, that the goo is a deadly threat to the living planet which must and can be fought by the homins and the powers, is still valid anyway as it seems to me.

When I saw Mjollren's going to refer to the "bible", I let that posting pass unread. The full ducument was once sent to me, and wiped unread. I simply don't want to know background information not intended to the players; I want to play without knowing what's right or wrong. I don't want to "fake" my character, and I don't want to manipulate it by knowledge which might influence decisions.


Wasn't there a translation of the full deciphered text by Zhoi somewhere? I kept one of the cubes we found until the Exodus ... *sighs*

I have to say, though, that the Zorai - especially before the Great Swarming - often displayed a similar bonding to their own people like the Kami, if not as symbiotic. Therefore one might think that Nung, banned from his home country and his people, knew pretty well how it is to be "cut off", and he might have indeed felt that the exile was cruel and unethical. The reason he returned to the Witherings at the end of his life was his want to die amongst his own people; instead he died imprisoned in the Lakelands.

I'm not sure if the amber-cube-fragments about the experiments of Nung Horongi with the Goo are for/from a Leanon-only-event or if maybe other servers had gotten the same information or parts of it... I have already quoted a link in one of my posts here, mentioning that this event has not really "ended" yet. Here's the link to the text-fragments of a letter from Nung Horongi to the marauder Melkiar once again: http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/13657/2# 2 No, sorry; I don't know of any English version.

When we're talking about "the Lore": in the official German Lore-pages (known as "Chronicles" on http://atys.ryzom.com/) we had also included some more recent events as part of our "history", that might have to be "rewritten" or deleted in the long run, or as Salazar commiserates :( http://atys.ryzom.com/projects/5/wiki/Chronologie2525.

When replying to Laofa's similar concerns "I think it was little spoil, one day, but everybody in aniro says it's the same... Can we re-write this ?" I did not mean any offense against Laofa; instead I wanted to emphasize that we ALL feel the same way about this! I upsets some. Still I suppose that no former server-specific Lore will be "safe" from subsequent changes in the future.

Just like Daomei I also think that the documents called the "Ryzom bible" are no longer the basic ideas behind the Lore, since the documents contain a lot of ideas that have in the meanwhile become completely different from the Lore we have of today.

A considerable number of players from former Leanon don't want anything from these documents quoted in forums or spoiled OOC in any way since they do not want to be influenced by these ideas in their own roleplay unconsciously and also do not want to see others basing their roleplaying on said "bible". Because of this we Ex-Leanon-players have been considerate not to quote anything from this "bible" :)

Even though Daomei will dislike this I wish to explain to Laofa why I have mentioned Icus:

First of all Icus' IC-theories about Goo as well as his rude OOC-words (!) uttered in front of the Event-Team implying that I as a player did't know "the Lore" have been the main reason for me to open up this thread. No, it was not only his "toon" speaking, but everything in brackets ( ) was OOC! Because of this I have posted the two parts of the chatlog in my 4th and 5th post.

During roleplay/Assemblies I am definitely not the one provoking nor starting OOC-comments "often". This would be a false accusation! Instead at many Assemblies it was Icus who was the first one to start OOC-discussions or use OOC-comments; not only during the last Assembly in Zora - as you can read for yourself in the chatlog.

The second chatlog I posted confirms that it was Feylin who started to talk OOC with the Sage Sens about destroying the Goo. (I wish she didn't because I could have called her questioning the Sage Sens's words by later on asking Tao Sian about destroying Goo to confirm "the truth" as being disrespectful towards the Sage :p)

I myself nearly never used any OOC-comments during RP-events during all the years I have played Ryzom on Leanon! Still I am not saying that OOC-comments as especially Ex-Aniro-player are using so often nowadays should be seen as "mistakes"; since they could help us to solve our differences - not only Lore-wise. At least this would be the case amongst grown-ups who use to treat others with respect and civility; but it gets difficult when having to respond to a griefer... (edited)

Last - and essentially - I wanted to name Icus as an example for my reply to Feylin's claiming that she allegedly "notices each detail and points it out". Feylin did pick on me rather often when she thought I made a mistake; that much is true! Even though Feylin definitely is not MY mother! (edited to be a bit fairer, not like this happens EVERY time) However I have never experienced Feylin treating anyone else in this lecturing, overly didactic way that she uses towards me. Especially Icus: he is even supported in his griefing ways by Feylin passively...

I don't think that a sentence that ends with "sorry" (!) should be viewed as "going too far" or as "worse" than a sentence phrased with "seem" - especially since what I said was used to defend the freedom of many and varied theories against one dogmatic but illogical doctrine "How could them teach something they cannot use themselves ... So homin magic being efficient against Goo, while Kami magic can't ? Doesn't seem to make sense." Or as Laofa puts it even stronger: "It's fact in aniro that kami and homin use same kind of magic."

However is this "fact" also part of the Lore of Aniro in any of the Chronicles on http://atys.ryzom.com/ ?

I really hope it's not! I would not want to impersonate a character belonging to a whole race of liars who are sworn to "fight" against the Goo, but still refuse to use the known method - fire like in the forges of the Fyros - against it; and who instead irresponsibly discharge Goo on a large scale at the nature of the rims of the Witherings, thus turning vast areas into giant garbage dumps; even though the Zorai have sworn to respect nature...

If doing this was considered "wisdom" and fulfilling the promise to "cleanse THE LAND" Zhoi herself would not want to be a Zorai any longer for even a day...