IDEAS FOR RYZOM

Elvanae's idea wasn't bad except that it doesn't address the fact that the stanzas required for effective PvP are too expensive for a newb to buy on Silan.

Casy -- I know you like PvP, but the point to Silan is NOT to get a head start on the game, but to train people in the game mechanics, give them a (tiny) bit of Lore and get them off to the ML. It is a tutorial area for teaching the game.

PvP is an optional extra to the game. I (almost) agree that a PvP trainer could be useful, but in my opinion they (one for each nation) should be on the ML, and they most certainly should NOT give any "uber" prize on Silan. The axe you mention is, for instance, useful up to well past level 100 (and that is the reason it is not tradeable and that it was given as an incentive to stay subscribed). There is not any item available from the Silan trainers that is useful much past level 60, and that level is only if you are a conservative player.

More importantly, why should PvP get special training? You get minimal training in how to use stanza building for dig, cast, craft and melee. You are expected to work out the rest for yourself. That is part of how Ryzom the game is built; it is based on self discovery. I am sure that you have worked out your PvP techniques based on experiment and trading information with your peers. That is how all the skills work.

Special training? May I point out there are 4 trainers to get players started on each main skill branch. Adding missions to the PvP guy (there is already someone there- he just doesn't give missions) to introduce PvP to newcomers would be roughly the same as them. If Silian is for teaching newcomers about the game then why shouldn't people be taught the basics of PvP?

The whole point of this trainer is to help people understand PvP. Elvanae's point is that PvP is difficult to get to grasps with- much more so than digging or simply nuking plants. I think missions on silian would be a great way that might get people interested in pvp- or at the very least introduce them to it.

I do like the idea of a trainer on the mainland- but if someone is interested in PvP there are many around who would be more helpful than a trainer- all you need to do is ask.

Virg --
"Special training" because PvP isn't a "game skill" like harvest, crafting, etc., and as I pointed out the "trainers" don't so much train as throw you into the deep end with hints. You don't even have to team up to beat 90%+ of the missions, even though they are set up to encourage you to do so.

PvP is an "activity", not a "skill", just like "careplanning" and "team fame runs" and "tanking."

I would not be opposed to giving the Arena dude a few missions of the same "un-training" kind as long as the rewards were not excessive. I'm not sure how they could be set up, though, because I don't know the nature of the triggers that are used for such things as the "kill yubos" mission, and whether or not they could be set up for a "kill homins" mission. It is clear (from the rest of Silan) that a "kill homins with melee" mission would not work, since there is apparently no trigger to determine the nature of the weapon used in "Kill XXX" missions.

-- B

While I agree with Bittty that there should not be an uber reward, I find the idea of a PvP trainer with PvP quests not bad at all. After all, there is already a PvP introduction NPC on Silan, that one could give the quests which ought not to begin harder than the official 4 branches.

Quite a time ago, long before the fusion, I suggested in the Arispotle ideas forum (here, in a way ;)) to create a fifth skill tree for PvP. The advantage would be that all leveling greedy homins (like me) could hardly resist such a challenge. Granted not all my ideas about were fully thought through I still think such would not be a bad idea.

In addition I think that points (if not xp in such a hierarchy) should not be given in a winner takes it all fashion, but rather one part fully given to the victor, the rest e.g. by relative damage dealt or similar. That would encourage fights with a close outcome even if one of the parties is always losing in the end.

On Silan there wouldn't be a need for special skills. I encountered some questions in uni if there was any pvp in ryzom. It just isn't clear to new players. If you like PvP you don't bother if you got the best skills already, you just start it. If you fail you will ask what your opponent did (or find out yourself which encourages new players to look into game mechanics). This is most common for beginner's PvP. This could even help new players to buy the right skills. Most are not sure what skills are best to buy first. Buy 5 stamina regen upgrades or melee protection aura? Just an example. It can help PvE gameplay too.

At the moment every main game aspect is present on silan but PvP. The arena... yes... but arena PvP is ridiculous. Noone seriously does that on ML.... Ok except us marauders haha :) But that is training for real PvP. We would not do it if there was no real PvP to train for.

It does not have to be THAT axe. Any single type of unique equipment does the trick. Maybe a Q50 faction skirt. Every activity in ryzom results in unique advantages. Every activity on Silan yields unique items. Finishing a number of voluntary PvP opponents of your level is an achievement very similar to completing chiang's missions.

I never mentioned a pvp trainer with a single word. The explanantion guy i mentioned is there to explain how to tag up, how to recognize another player who is tagged and if you need to fear him if you yourself are not tagged.

Yours
Casy without any Es

Casy --

My apologies for the intrusive "e". I have fixed it in my post above.

I would have to object to q50 anything. You don't get q50 for Chiang's mission or any other Silan activity. If PvP is a part of Ryzom activity (which it is) it is *not* a more important part than anything else and should not give greater reward. A set of pants at q45, or a q45 fancy dagger or a nice protection jewel would correspond nicely to the rewards for everything else except the Kirosta Mission (which is supposed to be the culmination of the Silan experience and an experience in "boss" fighting).

I don't see any reason not to use the Silan Arena. It may not be "real" PvP to you, but it allows both single and group combat, gives dp just the same as "real" PvP and keeps the PvPers from running rampant over Silan. The PvP dude can explain that this is just a sample and that on the mainland there are many larger areas where PvP is allowed and that once one has sufficient fame one can tag up. That gives prospective PvPers an incentive to move to the ML where they can grind fame and earn the right to tag up and run rampant across the landscape.

It also means that the dev's don't have to mess with the game mechanics to allow people to tag up in Silan, and therefore it is more likely that you might get it in an non-geological time-span.

-- Bittty

And maybe that's the difference between someone who likes PvP and someone who hates it. I just don't get why you want to spoil the PvP experience at any cost.

Why do i get to that conclusion? PvP is actually - as many stated in this thread - more challenging and need a lot more effort than hunting an easy mob like silan kirosta. And that very easy choice mob (a lot easier than a exe named, not comparable to a boss, and even bosses are easy in ryzom) even yields a full set of armor.

Or do you seriously think Kirosta is hard? :-)

Casy

Yes, I do think the Kirosta is hard, when it is undertaken by a party at the level that the devs expected people to cap out on Silan, which is to say no one in the party over 30 in magic or melee, no HA, few if any jewels. With assistance from high level "Silan welcomers", yes it's easy. ((Off topic, perhaps we should put a level cap into Silan the way there was in the old days?))

And low level PvP on Silan is *not* more challenging than PvE because the newbs don't have the stanzas and don't have even the idea for techniques. If high level PvP is challenging, it is precisely because it *is* high-level.

I cannot emphasize enough that while I dislike PvP, I am debating this honestly. Silan is meant to be a training ground in game mechanics, not in everything that the game can be. Simple digging, simple making, simple hitting, simple casting. If we add PvP to that, it should be "simple PvP", and that's the Arena. That's not a matter of "hating PvP", that's a matter of keeping things balanced.

-- Bittty

P.S. I don't hate PvP, I just dislike it very much. Hate is far too strong a word in my vocabulary to use on PvP in a game.

Thanks for considering my idea and giving your opinions :)

In response to the subsequent posts:

No, PvPing is not a skill - but why should that deter from the fact that the ultimate thing in this game is Wars - which are unfortunately dictated by politics and not a reliably regular activity - PvPing is not dictated by politics. It is an activity for which there IS demand and since Ryzom already have PvP content in place, I don't think you can undermine its importance and therefore cannot compare it to fame runs etc...

Active PvP is an element of the game which in my opinion draws from ALL of the skill branches. I was talking to Drezar the other night and he said: "All that I do, is in order for me to become better and better in PvP". But he doesn't limit his activity to just finding someone to 1v1 PvP with day and night, he (a) Hunts, (b) Digs, (c) Crafts and (d) Trades - All of the major skills. It creates a buzz of activity and purpose where mats are traded and bosses are farmed and sups are highly regarded CONSTANTLY... Why? Because constant PvP wears out gear!

Virg had his jewels break after 5 minutes during an OP War because he had been PvPing so much beforehand. So he NEEDS to do all the above (whether on his own or relying on others) in order to keep PvPing. I, personally, would welcome such an environment!

But I feel the focus should first commence at the root... in Silan.


PvP Trainer/NPC - SILAN
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I feel its important to be neutral when considering this option.
These are a few ideas of mine for missions which I hope can be easily implemented:

1. Rewards = Crystals = Enable players to experience the use of enchantments and learn the importance of Crystals.

2. Tagging = Anyone who takes a mission and completes the Training can Tag themselves.

3. PvP Vendor = Mission giving PvP points, requiring player to purchase an item of their choice from the Vendor.
(Entice players and inform them of the existence of PvP rewards)

4. PvPing = Just like how an NPC is used in Aligning, an NPC can be used in this mission in order for a player to kill him and obtain points. I was hoping (dreaming big) that the NPC could MPA when HP hit 50% for example...

5. Stanzas = Making use of the PvP Arena = Stanzas like Critical Attack, Aim For etc are enabled when in the PvP zone and disabled when not in the PvP zone. This would enable players to experiment with such stanzas.


PvPing - MAINLAND
____________________

I think this is also very important. I simply don't get why people are so against more PvP rewards....
I feel that some people feel it is a competition as regards to rewards which are obtained from PvPing and through Skills. For the reasons I set out above and that I will set out below, I feel that there should be more rewards implemented for PvP.

If we look at this as an example:

ACTIVITIES -
___________
OP Wars = Number of Ultimate Boosting Rewards
NPC Hunt = Number of Arguably Ultimate Rewards
SN's = All Mat Types = Ultimate Reward
Occupations = Number of Rewards
PvP = Very Few

If we look at how many points are required for a Skirt and calculate how long it would take to obtain said points, I really can't see how anyone would be against implementing more Armour type rewards where you need thousands of points just for one piece...
I mean really... :/ Is it at all any different from sitting in PR waiting for a whole day for the weather to change into Sap Storm?? At least this way you are actually actively doing something... *wearing out your gear doing more PvPing ;) and needing your Guild and Friends to help with their skills for more gear etc* And the wheel keeps turning :D

Say, what? *total astonishment* Not for a lot of players, they aren't. The ultimate thing, in my opinion is the mass PvE events such as the cleansing of the Kitin Mounds. However, this is a matter of taste, not of inherent "ultimateness".

OP wars are inherently PvP, the SN's may as well be these days, and with PvP itself that's three out of five. I don't see a lack of representation.

As for increased numbers of rewards, I am not on record as opposing such an increase, as long as the rewards are not any more "uber" than the NPC armor available by other means. As fpr me, I dig and craft and hunt the occasional boss. Boss mats are hardly, imho, Ultimate, since they need to be properly processed ( a non-trivial and imperfect task) to be made into something.

Maybe I didn't express myself well enough...

Wars as in, its the main reason why people strive hard to obtain good mats in order to be able to craft gear which will aid in obtaining/protecting Outposts. Apart from this, those who PvP also use very high quality gear when they PvP.

The PvE like the Kitin Mounds you gave as an example are few.

The lack of representation argument I feel is incredibly weak, yet again I feel like your looking at this like a competition. OP wars are not regular. SN's last for a couple of hours if that (varying). PvP tagging is constant and whats more is that the rewards require a heck of a lot of PvPing.

If the Armour was not more uber, then the items should cost less in PvP points maybe. But the whole point of suggesting that was that it would possibly spur a PvP culture enabling Ryzom to thrive for the reasons I set out in my previous post.

I never made mention of Boss Hunts being ultimate. I think you confused it with the NPC Hunt :)

Elvanae --

Boss hunt and NPC hunt. Yes I did confuse them. I apologize. But even most of the NPC hunt benefit is in the crystals and plans and those need skill to use and the results are not guaranteed.

I have (in the past, pre merge) done OP battles, sometimes even on the winning side. What is this high level armor you talk of? I never had or used any. I made high level armor to protect me while hunting or digging.

I just want balance, and that includes no super-equipment incentive to do PvP vs non-PvP.

I actually agree that the current "rewards" structrure is slightly out of whack, just as the "economy" was pre merge. I just don't want to see it get out of whack in the other direction (just as the economy was/is post merge).

One last thing about good gear needed to do endgame PvE content .... :-)

With the merge and equipment wipe we had the unique opportunity to test it. And i can honestly tell you: We finished all 6 NPCs and any bosses we encountered with starter gear. Starter gear meaning that it took a few people about 3 hours of digging and crafting to make equipment for the whole guild.

Anything better is luxury. Of course we use better stuff now. But it's not required to finish that content.

This high level armor she talks of is what most guilds use their sup mats for. Every person I know well use grind gear for boss hunts. There is only one boss I can think of that really needs specific gear- and thats kinkoo where acid jewels on the tank are a massive help (even so 2 tanks in choice gear or just a dedicated healer with enchants can overcome this easily). Most people bring out their best gear for OP wars which speaks volumes- PvP is a lot harder than PvE and therefore people use better gear for it.

You don't hear anyone (or at least I havent) say "oh let me go put my PvE jewels on if we are going to PR". PvP jewels are the best jewels for a reason.

I want balance. PvP is the hardest thing in this game (you can debate this if you like- Im happy to give examples of 2masters and 2 f2ps doing q270 aggro bosses,me running naked through all PR regions and people sitting for hours waiting for a change of weather). Seeing as PvP is the hardest thing in this game why shouldn't it have its rewards?

I'm quite frankly tired of people pushing against this just because they don't PvP and they are worried it will affect their digging. Of course it wont- NPC bosses haven't affected it so why should additional PvP armor do that? They look at the number of points as an easy grind... well its not- try it for yourself if you dispute me Ill even take you into the marauder camp myself :) Kill pei 9 times and you have a great LA piece- whats hard about that?

Virg, please not again. Do the math: In case of bad luck, you kill Pei-Ruz 20 times for 20/9 boots, oops.
And "PvP jewels" are a bug exploit. I regret much that it has not been fixed with the piece of code provided by Neron. Not because I am anti PvP but because I believe the complaints of PvP participants that it kills the role of mages in PvP.

About "PvP is the hardest thing in this game" I cannot but laugh. The hardest thing probably is preparing, organizing, leading, and follow up a RP session of all parts of the community, that is damn work and exactly zero reward (be happy if not harvesting lots of critique and objections). Compared with that anything else is a catwalk.

I could name lots of other things that are "harder than PvP" and not yielding any reward (except a thankyou which is worth more than every uber gear), for example treks around the world with a group of new players. That is a burden of responsibility and may develop complexities untold.

And, beneath that. if you are a master in PvP, where is it hard to defeat somebody who is not? Tumbleweed brought up the assertion that somebody in Pei armor, with PvP jewels and 97 zun amp would always win against somebody in good dig armor and jewels and 83 amp. I, on contrary, in a case that a non PvP trained, master in ele and the afflis, with the mentioned uber gear, would stand against, say Kitane, you, Triplex, Ardaz, or others knowing the business, in the aforementioned standard gear, would bet every dapper on the PvP expert, and would win.

Therefore, PvP is only hard if you have a worthy opponent, otherwise it may even be easy or dead boring at worst. That is, and I have to hammer that into your head, what Bittty, me, and other alleged "PvP haters" are preaching: You damn need fresh blood, and for that, you have to show and demonstrate the attractivity of PvP. Creating "carrots", rewards, or worst of all, coercion, will only attract opportunists, and drive out non interested players, thus damaging the whole game. That is the only concern "PvP haters" (which, btw, I am not) hold, being concerned about balance and integrity of game mechanics.