English

Actually it's not really rent and food..

Less than a quarter (less than a fifth without taxes) of my income goes into food... with a better paying job it would be even less.
Rent not really as we live in a house that's owned by my family - but a bit more than a quarter (a bit less without taxes) of my income would be enough to pay the rent for my hole family (I'm not really living in an expensive area in these regards)

BUT taxes are a huge money sink.
- taxes on the income (in my case round about a third of it for others up to half of it)
- taxes for owning the ground where our house stands
- taxes on everything we buy


In a world like Atys I'd probably
- hunt/grow my own food
- own/rent an apartment (cost depending on the state) or maybe have my own hut somewhere in the wilderness

So the best dapper sink would be taxes on everything that's sold (kind of unrealistic because we know enough ways to circumvent this)

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back to the real topic:

I neither like nor dislike the new economy - but there are some things that could have been done better from the very start.
1) why did they change the pact prices after letting the people onto the server and not before?
2) same for some other items at the merchants
3) why didn't they revise the mission rewards?

The New Economy is different but it really is also pretty much the same.
There are still no dapper sinks really.
Tps overall are cheaper so dappers really have even less value.
The only way I have found to make Dappers effectively is missions.
Occupation Missions no longer give dapper rewards.
Selling Mats to a vendor is almost a waste of time.
I suspect even selling items crafted for craft exp is a waste of time.
There are however plenty of Missions that give plenty good Dapper rewards.
A Player needs to learn those missions then grind them -- its that simple.
Even a new player can take the Delivery Missions in the Lev 50 zones and make plenty of dapper for early play if they are willing to repeat those missions over and over.
If you like a challenge do the mission mat dig missions from the Prospectors out in the zones, but it'll take a while to learn the dig spots so the payoff is in repeating them.
Of course the best payout is the craft missions but that's tough for most players as you need specific craft skills and patterns. But you only need a high enough craft skill level to take the mission -- YOU DO NOT ACTUALLY HAVE TO CRAFT THE ITEM YOURSELF -- just requires a team memeber to craft it so you can co-operate to do the missions.

For me having all Master craft skills its pretty easy to make 2.5M dappers a day if I want. The mision mat dig missions are sort of fun but it wears thin after 5 days or so and the craft just pays off better. Its not really that much harder or easier to make dappers. just now have to grind missions whereas before got dappers grinding craft skills.

edit add :: I forgot to mention that there are kill things missions for dappers too. Never really tried them but sure its not all that bad just the same old repeat missions to make a lot.

I think the issue is that people HAVE to run the missions to make anything... If they want Ryzom to be completely mission based they might as well just add a item mall and make use the same model as most of the other crappy mission based games..

Reading the contributions, many of them complaining about the new economy, I cannot but remindl my recollections from the old one. And my memories were not equally bright as others'.

There seems no contradiction about that the dapper was broke. There was an incredible amount of dappers in circulation, partially from widespread exploit of money bugs of the past, but clearly mainly from the imbalance of raw material prices.

For a newly beginning player who had strived a bit to have enough money for a packer or two, later even an apartment, it was annoying to have to fend off lots of well-meaning and helpful players who permanently tried to stuff millions into her. I took some pride in never taking a single dapper from anybody though I was nearly broke after having taken part on my initial trecks around the world. But it was not easy not to get the thrill from that spoilt by misled benevolence, and to decline without offending anybody.

Further on, it was disappointing that crafting was in vain at best and costly at worst. Crafting items from bought material meant losing money absolutely, crafting from dug oder hunted raw material relatively, compared to selling the mats directly. I know of at least one quite devoted and ambitious player who left the game in disappointment because of the shortcomings of the economic system.

While it is true that older players always were extremely generous and helpful, such a situation is in no way satisfactory for newcomers. One was always in feeling of obligation to those who provided us with really great gear, well knowing that one would never be able to give back that debt. It brought frustration and atonement when one unintentionally destroyed such stuff e.g. by selling (the grat lock feature isn't yet that old, after all).

And very seldom one had the opportunity to simply go over the markets and do some shopping, just buying some armor or weapon simply because it looked nice or interesting, just because there was not enough stuff in the traders. Crafters were used to produce on being asked for what one needed. And they usually gave it out for free, no wonder, what should they do with dappers? When I came from Silan, where a group of longtime Silan players provided really good market coverage, I was deeply disappointed about the large basars of Pyr containing quite a few things.

Yes, I also recall the bright sides, especially after having mastered some digging and crafting, becoming more and more independent and amassing some trillions of dappers. But I think that decadence, as one poster wrote, describes that situation quite correctly.

So I am not unhappy with a change in the situation. We shall see whether it will work or is already working.

Daomei, i'm glad you wrote that, since it is so close to what i experienced. Eight years ago, economy, digging and crafting where my "soap box", especially the lack of *any* cost for digging (or so low its not worth mentionning). I stopped asking and hoping for a change. Im glad it finally came. I dont know yet if the new system Will work in the long run, it probably wont be perfect, but i am vëry glad to be rid of the old system.

mmoRpg doesn't mean char builds like mine 100% fight oriented should be asking for dapper just to go rez a somebody. We have 4 skill trees atleast make all 4 of em liveable and i don't mind crafters make more then me but them making millions of dappers and me making a couple of thousand (not event 100k) in the same time is not an economy. It's telling me to move on and play other games.

This is a world where kittin are the threath and not the mats in the ground, if there are some invirimentals that want to stand up and say the oil in the ground is making the kitins strongers pls do. But as long as that's not the case kittin mats should atleast sell for a decent amount so a hunter can make enough on a hunt to pay for his teleport.

Well this game is kind of not for me anymore already unsubbed my 2nd account and chances are that I'll unsub my main aswell and go join my guildies that moved to guildwars2 already (for same and other reasons) once I get more time with work and so on. Might aswell make myself an f2p here and login now and then when i have time instead of logging in an almost full melee master with nothing to do except sitting at stables (since tping for me is to damm expencive the way it is)

Is this a goodbye to ryzom? I hope it isn't but the way they made the economy atm for me there is almost no reason to keep paying 10euro a month to do repetitive missions and the occasional outpost war or event with Suboxide.
GRATZ ON MAKING THE BEST GAME WITH A GREAT BARTER ECONOMY INTO THE WORST GAME THERE IS FOR PPL LIKE ME!!! have to congratulate all of you actually you are the reason i'm 50% more productive at work since I don't login from work anymore and my electric bill gonna be cheaper now aswell since I don't even have a

a reason to turn on my pc when I get home at 22h-23h.

Thinking about all of it maybe that's what the devs want on the new server with all the extra lag maybe they just want ppl like me gone so there is less lag?

The issue of the economy and having good equipment for sale on the vendors is really a seperate issue.

There are 2 main reasons offhand that i can think of for equipment not on markets.
First is simply the 7 days and its gone -- might seem simple enough to retrieve, log off, reput item on market but its not.
Second is that mats can make a lot of variations of equipment -- just exactly what Quality do you want for instance not to mention say color of armor, some mats are even good for multiply types of equipment.

I have no answers for those issues but that's why i typically never bothered to put much on the market.

Daomei --

 Very well put. You are eloquent even in English. What I see as your complaints about the old economy, however, are the very things that I thought made it good.

 "You have no possibility of paying back" the gifts of the established players?  That's fine -- the gifts were gifts, after all, not exchanges for future favors.  Instead of paying it back -- pay it forward!  Be "that person" for the next newby in the line.

  The lack of things to "buy" in the bazaars?  Again, a symptom of a true trade/gift economy.  When money is worthless, nothing is sold for money. 

((An additional contribution to the lack of stuff on the market was the fact that, because of the low server populations, crafters were unwilling to put crafted items up for sale.  If you put up a good item at a reasonable (cheap) price, you want to see it sold so you know that someone is using it. If you make it for them directly you know it's going to be used.))

  All of these were symptoms of a vital, working, HIGHLY NON-TRADITIONAL economy. It was part of what made Atys different from Middle Earth or Azeroth or whatever planet it is that Guild Wars takes place on.

  Not to worry -- Dappers will be worthless again soon enough -- Atys still generates an infinite supply of raw materials.  The difference will be that newbies won't be able to afford the prices in the marketplace and they will need to take gifts in order to advance in the game.  The old economy may have been broken, but the new one is (imho) worse.

With respect

  -- Bittty

As far as paying back Master/Vet players, its very possible. All I ever wanted was help at OP wars and help with doing NPC Bandit Boss's. Even a low level Healer can be helpful at an OP battle if they really try, if nothing else they are 1 more character that has to be killed -- I did my first OP battle with a lev 40 heal skill and felt like i contributed. Certainly didn't do a lot but looked like i got just enough sap back to that high level mage so they could cast again a couple times.
Also when you get high enough level, remembering friends and inviting them to help when you find Boss's is highly valued.
I just don't see this new economy changing any of that, certainly wouldn't for me. Just too easy to get the mats for high payoff craft missions and do those missions just before logging out or just after logging on. And the good Boss Mats are still just worth way more than dappers, maybe more so now.

The new economy will put a premium on getting at least 1 craft skill to 200 so that you can take the high level craft missions. Selling mats is just not even worth the time, but saving the mats necessary to do the craft missions will save a lot of digging time. A plus is that even when grinding craft skills it prob won't be worth the time to sell the crafted items, so leveling crafts will actually be faster. The players that have the craft skills to do the high level craft missions will have to share their ability with others -- somewhere around a 25-50% cut looks about right from my experience doing the missions. For non-crafters, they will just have to either supply their looted mats to a crafter or pick up delivery or kill missions before heading out to hunt. Pure diggers could do the dig missions but I doubt many will do that repeatedly, but they sure are fun to learn and do 3 to 5 times.
A quick number to back up my feeling about selling mats -- its about 1100-1200 dappers per mat doing the high level craft missions. The New Economy is not all that bad but I don't think its what the Dev's were after.

Ok first, sorry for my english, I'm french ;)

First, I think the new economy is beter than the old. Don't forget, in the old economy, dappers are no value, On Aniro, the smallest competition was awarded several millions of dappers ...

Now, dappers are value, but for how long ?

I start with a temerar (téméraire ?) account. I take my millions for my guild, but I have already my appartement, and I don't have any problem with teleport. I have 3 mektoubs too. And I'm not the more rich in my guild.

for resume, now you can win money :

- by tribes mission (and it's good for Fame)
- by craft mission (my best LVL : 140, my best level in craft : 130, money per 2H : 70.000 dappers, I just craft shields)
- by sold my loot

Ok, but now ... I have already all I need (teleport, mektoub and appart, Guild Hall for my guild), I stop craft mission, I play tribe missions for finish my fame objective ... My play style is the same than before merge.

For me, for finish the new economy, we must :

- Delete the chip tool seller (one tool for 1000 dappers ...Ok, I have already foraging tool for my 250 ... same for my craft)
- Reduce the life of equipement (armor and weapons)
- Or create more exit for dappers

the new economy reduces the speed of creating dappers but we need more out of dappers, either by need to purchase equipment or other things.

MLy two french dappers ;)

From a low-level player's perspective, I think the new economy delivers a number of advantages. A fresh arival from Silan should have enough dapper to buy a mount, one or more replacement mounts if the first one dies, plenty of mek food, several teleports, as much player-made gear as he/she might want, and still have plenty left over. Obviously this was not the case in the old economy. Maybe this is too easy!

If the main dapper sinks for a low-level player are mek food and low-level teleports, then dappers are now worth about 10x what they were in the old economy (mek food and low-level teleports were about 10k, now they are about 1k).

Two distinct advantages to low-level players:
1. Corporal and overseer missions are now worth doing. A hunting mission that pays 2k is like getting paid 20k in the old economy. Plus you get substantial experience from the fighting (if you are low-level) and a little fame. For a new player, this should help ease the transition from the mission-driven play of Silan and the sandbox play of the mainland, which imo is a good thing.

2. Mounts are now practical for exploration and trekking, opening up many new possibilities. In the old economy, mounts were precious things (especially for a low-level player) that were not to be put into harm's way. Now that mounts can be cheaply replaced, new ways of playing become possible for the low-level player. For example, mounted solo-treks are much, much easier and faster than going on foot. I (albeit as a modestly experienced solo-trekker) was able to get all the capitols at level 40 with only one death (hint: a named gingo can kill your mount very quickly!). The old way of trekking, with a team of high-level players escorting helpless newbs, may become a thing of the past (and good riddance - that approach generally doesn't teach new players good sneaking skills, or even teach them how to get from one place to another on their own!). If a new player doesn't want to take on the challenge of finding his or her own way, then a low-level guide should be all that is needed under the new system.