English

Meh... I agree with Suboxide (aye, it's weird, but I suppose weird things happen in weird situations)

The issue is: High level crafters can easily get dappers. Low level players therefore can't use TPs in the same manner. Which is fine, you say.

Although you miss one of the big points which made me love ryzom above all other games. We were allowed to do whatever we wanted. Before, I could log on, sit about at stables, do 10 ress runs, go on a bosshunt and die 15 times in PR, each time ressing at TP. For me this was great fun, because I could cock about as much as I wanted and I was able to help people without any issues.

I still like Ryzom, so I don't see why the devs would bother with my tiny voice, since I won't unsub because of this. But things were way more fun in the "old" days... In beta I had loads of fun. Heck, a few months ago I had loads of fun. Now, I just don't have anything better to do. You guys keep enjoying the new economy if you do, I don't, and you can't tell me to.

I don't think anyone ever left the game because they had too many dappers. Now people are leaving the game (or thinking about it) because they can't do what they want, when they want to. For a game with such little content, people should atleast be free to do the fun things ingame they like to do. It's very annoying to run out of dappers TPing somewhere or recharging a weapon and having to drop everything to dig.

The system can't be that bad!
I agree it requires more effort to do things and the weight is on missions, but just past the merge I gained most of my money for packers etc, by digging 100 Mats of whatever quality and it got easily sold for....

...700-900%.

So there must be plentiful money in the system.

Weighing in again --

I see people saying "I like it" because it makes "dappers worth something."

I have to ask -- "Why is this desireable?"    I keep pointing out, and no one has countered me, that we *had* a working (mostly) economy before the merge.  It just wasn't based on cash!

"Economy" is not the same as "money".  We had trade, we had cheap transportation (tps) and we had cooperation to play in the world. We had gifts from experienced players to new players.  We were all rich becuase Atys produces unlimited raw materials. Like Subo I didn't do the missions much because they were un-interesting (and significantly incomplete).

Now I have to do missions because selling mats doesn't make significant money unless you jack the price up to make it harder for newbs to buy materials. The monetary economy now just duplicates what is present in the "real" world. Screw the consumer is the name of the game.  Buy cheap and sell dear. etc. etc. et bleeding cetera. Those who were on top are already on top again, even less threatened than before by newbs. And yet -- Atys is still producing unlimited raw materials.

And I find the second two points to be telling.

One thing. I. Have always though ridiculous in the previous system, and that new system has fixed is that mats used to be more precious/expensive than crafts. Which is illogical. Now that crafts are the way to get dappers and mats arent worth much through the merchant, it is more feasible to buy mats and craft them without loosing all your dappers (provided you craft for missions rather than crafting with no purpose and throw away the junk)

On the Plus side...

• It has forced me to take an interest in Overseers & Corporals... I never saw a point to them, before. There were so many easy ways to grind up Civ fame, they were largely unnecessary. Now I feel like I know more about the game because I know more about which Overseers/Corporals offer what Missions where, and what can be stacked together for maximal gains, etc.

On the Minus side...

• In old days, Civ fame meant something (when it affected vendor selling prices). Now that everything vends for pennies (Sell to Merchant), there is no longer any incentive to get Civ fame up any higher than the 34-38 needed for Rites. Citizenship anyone? Who even cares? This means grinding countless Craft Missions for Overseers or Kill Missions for Corporals feels largely like a waste of time because the Fame gains are superfluous (you're doing it for Dappers, period). Doing the slave-wage grind is disheartening. Don't you guys have that in RL already? Don't double up on that whammy. :(

On the Plus side...

• Okay, so to make it exciting again, there's Tribe fame to be had! And many more delicious Overseers to get access to. So it's off to do Tribal Welcomer/Journeyman/Patroller Missions... leading to that 0 Fame mark when Overseers light up. And there's tribes in each level bracket, so there's a Tribe out there at your Crafting level. Now there's a whole new world to explore as far as finding out new Crafting combos to make Dappers (Tribal Overseers).

On the Minus side...

• That makes it more fun, but it's still no fun. Tribal Overseers don't pay any better than the Civ ones. There's no incentive to get fame with any Tribe up past 0, except maybe to feel good. These lack-of-incentives for Fame grinding are piling up.

• The end-all/be-all complaint that nerfs Joy here is... lack of Freedom. Instead of Crafting what I want to craft, I end up crafting what "they" want me to Craft (they = Missiongivers). No matter who the Missiongiver is (any combo of Civ/Faction/Tribe), they never have Missions for the craft skills that line up with what I prefer to train in. So I either have to remake myself to be something the Dapper Missiongiver market desires, or I get to remain myself but find only a handful of Missions that'll pay out decently for what I make well.

(An example of this is Abyan in Pyr, she pays for Fyros Bracelets/Autolauncher Ammo. Bracelets being my thing, I guess I better take up Autolauncher Ammo now if I want access to her Dappers on a regular basis! And I have. Do I feel good doing it? NO. The Kara guy at OO/Dyron offers a good Bracelet Mission, but that doesn't pay the bills. In fact, it barely nudges Kara fame either. The Icon Worshippers have a good Bracelet Mission, but they payout so poorly being lowbies. You get the idea yet? The Smugglers only swallow 2 bracelets at a time. I guess I'll just have to hit up Crystabell every hour+15min. Do I feel good doing that? NO.

Whoring out for a good tribal Bracelet Missiongiver! Send resume to Wintergreen. :P)


Hope that makes sense to yas... what's missing in our new economy is... Fun. :)

•••Winter•••

One good Solution...

• Make Missiongiver payout amounts depend on Fame. The more Fame you have with said Faction, the more they will pay you for the same Goods/Deeds (this only applies to Missiongivers who pay out in Dappers). Scalable all the way to 100 fame.



Suddenly there's plenty of incentive to get max. Fames everywhere. Civs & Tribes both. Find a high-level Overseer in a Civ or Tribe who requires "just the right Crafting skills" (matching yours) as a Mission? Then grind up Fame with them and make them your mainstay for Dappers.

In the long run, such a move would mean that as one grew more & more seasoned with a Craft skill(s) and a matching Overseer's fame that in time one would craft less and less frequently since they payoffs would bring in more & more dappers per effort. That would give the Homins the idea that it's hard work earning a living in the beginning, but that, in time, given the right skills & fame scores (and choices you make), your earning life would get easier and free you up to live a more decadent (i.e. stablesitting) life. :)

(To use the above example again, let's say I've decided that Abyan is the ultimate goal for my Bracelet career... that means Yes! I WILL take up Autolauncher Ammo as a sideline Craft skill, and I will also grind on Fyros fame like craaazy, and heck yes, become a Fyros citizen to help that fame climb along. Soon, I'll be Abyan's favorite crafting pet, making great Dappers on her Bracelet/Ammo Mission. Granted, Abyan is a poor end-choice, but you get the point!)


•••Winter•••

Good idea from Winter, anything that adds more value or the reason to grind anything is a good idea and civ fame benefits fit well.

Stick by my original post, why should'nt things be abit easier for those who put the effort in, be it fame, crafting whatever.

Some peeps saying game should'nt be like work are quite correct, but this is an mmoRpg, you have a Role and you improve and expand on your role in the game and things get better. For me crafting amunition or digging watching for aggro isnt like work its a game, if there was a game relating to agricultural machinery I wouldnt play it.

Don't get me wrong a don't want anyone turned away from SoR but if you want stuff for no effort all the time then maybe an fps is more your thing.

We had no dapper sinks in the previous economy so dapper piled up and became worthless.

Now it sounds like (haven't moved to the ML yet) earning dapper on Atys is more difficult than earning a dollar in RL.

What are the main money sinks in RL that are missing from Atys? Food and Rent. Food might be impractical but rent is much more straight forward. Rent your apartment. If you fall behind on rent, you are locked out of your inventory until you pay up your backrent.

Actually it's not really rent and food..

Less than a quarter (less than a fifth without taxes) of my income goes into food... with a better paying job it would be even less.
Rent not really as we live in a house that's owned by my family - but a bit more than a quarter (a bit less without taxes) of my income would be enough to pay the rent for my hole family (I'm not really living in an expensive area in these regards)

BUT taxes are a huge money sink.
- taxes on the income (in my case round about a third of it for others up to half of it)
- taxes for owning the ground where our house stands
- taxes on everything we buy


In a world like Atys I'd probably
- hunt/grow my own food
- own/rent an apartment (cost depending on the state) or maybe have my own hut somewhere in the wilderness

So the best dapper sink would be taxes on everything that's sold (kind of unrealistic because we know enough ways to circumvent this)

-----
back to the real topic:

I neither like nor dislike the new economy - but there are some things that could have been done better from the very start.
1) why did they change the pact prices after letting the people onto the server and not before?
2) same for some other items at the merchants
3) why didn't they revise the mission rewards?

The New Economy is different but it really is also pretty much the same.
There are still no dapper sinks really.
Tps overall are cheaper so dappers really have even less value.
The only way I have found to make Dappers effectively is missions.
Occupation Missions no longer give dapper rewards.
Selling Mats to a vendor is almost a waste of time.
I suspect even selling items crafted for craft exp is a waste of time.
There are however plenty of Missions that give plenty good Dapper rewards.
A Player needs to learn those missions then grind them -- its that simple.
Even a new player can take the Delivery Missions in the Lev 50 zones and make plenty of dapper for early play if they are willing to repeat those missions over and over.
If you like a challenge do the mission mat dig missions from the Prospectors out in the zones, but it'll take a while to learn the dig spots so the payoff is in repeating them.
Of course the best payout is the craft missions but that's tough for most players as you need specific craft skills and patterns. But you only need a high enough craft skill level to take the mission -- YOU DO NOT ACTUALLY HAVE TO CRAFT THE ITEM YOURSELF -- just requires a team memeber to craft it so you can co-operate to do the missions.

For me having all Master craft skills its pretty easy to make 2.5M dappers a day if I want. The mision mat dig missions are sort of fun but it wears thin after 5 days or so and the craft just pays off better. Its not really that much harder or easier to make dappers. just now have to grind missions whereas before got dappers grinding craft skills.

edit add :: I forgot to mention that there are kill things missions for dappers too. Never really tried them but sure its not all that bad just the same old repeat missions to make a lot.

I think the issue is that people HAVE to run the missions to make anything... If they want Ryzom to be completely mission based they might as well just add a item mall and make use the same model as most of the other crappy mission based games..

Reading the contributions, many of them complaining about the new economy, I cannot but remindl my recollections from the old one. And my memories were not equally bright as others'.

There seems no contradiction about that the dapper was broke. There was an incredible amount of dappers in circulation, partially from widespread exploit of money bugs of the past, but clearly mainly from the imbalance of raw material prices.

For a newly beginning player who had strived a bit to have enough money for a packer or two, later even an apartment, it was annoying to have to fend off lots of well-meaning and helpful players who permanently tried to stuff millions into her. I took some pride in never taking a single dapper from anybody though I was nearly broke after having taken part on my initial trecks around the world. But it was not easy not to get the thrill from that spoilt by misled benevolence, and to decline without offending anybody.

Further on, it was disappointing that crafting was in vain at best and costly at worst. Crafting items from bought material meant losing money absolutely, crafting from dug oder hunted raw material relatively, compared to selling the mats directly. I know of at least one quite devoted and ambitious player who left the game in disappointment because of the shortcomings of the economic system.

While it is true that older players always were extremely generous and helpful, such a situation is in no way satisfactory for newcomers. One was always in feeling of obligation to those who provided us with really great gear, well knowing that one would never be able to give back that debt. It brought frustration and atonement when one unintentionally destroyed such stuff e.g. by selling (the grat lock feature isn't yet that old, after all).

And very seldom one had the opportunity to simply go over the markets and do some shopping, just buying some armor or weapon simply because it looked nice or interesting, just because there was not enough stuff in the traders. Crafters were used to produce on being asked for what one needed. And they usually gave it out for free, no wonder, what should they do with dappers? When I came from Silan, where a group of longtime Silan players provided really good market coverage, I was deeply disappointed about the large basars of Pyr containing quite a few things.

Yes, I also recall the bright sides, especially after having mastered some digging and crafting, becoming more and more independent and amassing some trillions of dappers. But I think that decadence, as one poster wrote, describes that situation quite correctly.

So I am not unhappy with a change in the situation. We shall see whether it will work or is already working.

Daomei, i'm glad you wrote that, since it is so close to what i experienced. Eight years ago, economy, digging and crafting where my "soap box", especially the lack of *any* cost for digging (or so low its not worth mentionning). I stopped asking and hoping for a change. Im glad it finally came. I dont know yet if the new system Will work in the long run, it probably wont be perfect, but i am vëry glad to be rid of the old system.

mmoRpg doesn't mean char builds like mine 100% fight oriented should be asking for dapper just to go rez a somebody. We have 4 skill trees atleast make all 4 of em liveable and i don't mind crafters make more then me but them making millions of dappers and me making a couple of thousand (not event 100k) in the same time is not an economy. It's telling me to move on and play other games.

This is a world where kittin are the threath and not the mats in the ground, if there are some invirimentals that want to stand up and say the oil in the ground is making the kitins strongers pls do. But as long as that's not the case kittin mats should atleast sell for a decent amount so a hunter can make enough on a hunt to pay for his teleport.