IDEEN FÜR RYZOM

This discussion is as old as the introduction of the cults as a gaming mechanism. Currently a cult allegiance gives a player access to a lot more teleport pacts than a neutral player, but this was originally planned as a temporary issue. The cult system was introduced with the Temple War which for the first time (outside of single events) pitted Kamists versus Karavaneers, that time simply based on fame. So a +0 Kami fame made you Kamist and a -0 made you justs a Anti-Kami.

The second phase was the revamp of the Fame system, which introduced the rites to align with a Cult and/or Nation. Also during this phase all inoperable altars were activated, all non capital altars in regions became accessible to cult members only and you receive a message about the current control status when you enter a new region. This is when the teleport system we use today was introduced.

The third phase would have been the Spires expansion which should have brought the game mechanisms for region control by the two cults. This would also have opened all non purple and non prime roots altars to all neutral players, depending on the control status of a region. So to enter a Karavan controlled region the neutral play would have gained access to the Karavan altar, while the Kami altar wouldn't have been accessible by anyone as long as the region was Karavan controlled.

Since the third phase never was realized, and as far as I know isn't off the table completely, maybe a few adjustments to the access to teleport pacts should be made. My first idea is to allow neutrals to purchase teleport pacts from the altars in all blue cities.

Loryen writes: "Thanks for cutting of any opportunity for rebuttal"

I did not. I addressed many of your points that were relevant to the topic at hand. You ask me "once again" to explain why the odd corrupt kami or kara official would waste resources on a neutral, but as you had no response last time, I don't know why repeating myself would change that. If you don't actually have a rebuttal, perhaps ignoring my response is the best you can do.

I'm sorry that you think that diminished unfairness would wreck the game for you. You completely slip past my point that the game currently imposes severe penalties for acknowledging the lore of the game and finding neutrality to be the reasonable course. Yet you insist that you wish there were more consistent roleplaying. These views are mutually exclusive. It's possible that you have found a way to genuinely hold mutually incompatible views: lots of people do it. But it does tend to render attempts at dialogue moot.

Sorry if I came across wrong, I only originally intended to provide constructive feedback and discussion.

Unfortunately, I am just going to have to concede that I don't understand your argument. To me you seem to be contradicting yourself then trying to hide it by claiming I am contradicting myself...So, I am getting confused trying to follow your logic. At this point I have no idea if you are actually arguing a point or just trying to instigate a fight....and I have no interest in a fight that might escalate to pissing off someone else in a guild I greatly respect. You win...congrats, good luck with your request.

The first statement (which isn't itself completely true) does not support the second statement. While you might be able to make the "control homins" claims about the Karavan, as the lore does provide a little bit of wiggle room, I would like to see your sources for making those claims about the Kami.

You also fail to establish that either side needs anything from the Homins. Again, you might make claims about the Karavan, an even greater stretch than above, but there is no basis in the lore for a definitive answer.


I defer to the lore first:

"They share a collective conscience and it would seem that no living species may escape their perception, and consequently, their wrath if their laws of conservation are transgressed." (Source, Source)

Your suggestion about "individual Kami" has no merit because there is no such thing as an individual Kami. It's that collective conscience thing that you skipped right over. If you have corrupted one Kami, you have corrupted all Kami. That's not going to happen (unless of course you are Karavan and already hold that the Kami as a whole are corrupted. But that's not part of this discussion *grin*).

Now, we could go on and discuss theories about the nature of the Kami, and origins and goals of the Karavan, but those things are not necessarily grounded in the lore.

Now, having concluded our lore lesson for the day, lets re-visit your original post:


You want to remain neutral. That's fine, and perfectly wonderful.

You want advantages that neutrals currently do not have. That's understandable, and MAY have some merit. But remember, Neutrality also has its benefits, as does aligning with a faction. And they all have their drawbacks. One stance cannot overwhelm the others, with the understanding that the game developers are encouraging players to choose one side or the other, and have been doing so ever since the introduction of factional exclusivity.

Since this is an idea thread... Unless you present some strong, compelling, and lore-appropriate way to give advantages to neutrals that they currently do not have which also does not cause an imbalance, I'm opposed to your idea.

Both statements are true. Tryton lives!
Of course many are blinded by the kami or karavan into blindly adhering to the will of their masters, but let your eyes be opened and you see there is much we don't know about their true motivation.

When I began in this game (only a few months ago) I was determined to remain neutral. This was fine until I got to the Mainland. I quickly realised that I had to chose to follow Kami or Karavan to get the best out of the game. At first I was resentful of being 'forced' to chose one religion or the other - until I remembered that this is a Role Playing Game and the two sides give depth to the Lore.

The two competing religions are a vital part of the game, with the 'locking out' of TPs being just one aspect.

My reluctance to become a devoted follower to one of these religions was no more relevant than my reluctance to go hunting giant crustaceans at night with a 4 foot burning sword (in real life).

Of course if anyone finds the added difficulty of getting on in the game as a neutral more challenging and therefore more rewarding experience then good luck to them, but to argue that religious-neutral attitudes should have equality in the game is just silly IMHO. No offence :)

If you really need to strike a balance then sign up for one religion and play that for a while, then renounce it and sign up for the other religion. Could be interesting.

I feel all the arguing about lore seems a bit silly, should not the argument be whether the penalties on neutral are too severe?

Were it decided the neutrals needed a compensation, there'd always be ways to make it work within the lore. Trytonists and Marauders have shown capable of teleporting too.

Making any penalty or reward fit inside the lore is important, so discussing how the current situation (which to many is clearly less than optimal) regarding neutrals can be ammended is related to the lore.

Trytonists of course would most likely go neutral given a viable option (I know I would, the main reason I'm now alligned is the penalties on travel that the neutral option imposes). We hide within the existing religions not by choice but necessity, as hiding in plain sight until the day Elias Tryton returns is a survival strategy.
Marauders are more tricky, as they're hostile to civilisations, not necessarilly kami or karavan (I can imagine multiple marauder groups, some alligned with either faction and others not alligned at all, just like there are Trytonists in any nation and some who may be stateless citizens).

its ironic but if such a third neutral way was to be implemented it would easily become imo the largest faction population, many gamers care very little in reality for religion in real life.

pvp implications would be interesting to say the least too ;)

not so much because of the religious implications but because within Ryzom the community has just evolved that way.
In most mmos faction conflict is so severe (usually by design, sometimes by accident) that some publishers had to disable options to communicate between factions because it was just a constant flood of harassment and abuse, in Ryzom people (outside of pvp scenarios like opwars) work together despite being in opposing factions.

e.g. in wow there used to be such an option but Blizzard had to remove it. In Shaiya they went so far as to make it impossible to create toons in more than one faction per server and account (so if you want to try the other faction from your initial choice, you must use either another server and/or another account, there factions never see each other at all except in pvp content as they don't even share maps).

I think the largely cooperative environment that Ryzom creates draws in people who're overall more mature and "gentle", more likely to behave in civilised manner and less interested in conflict.
A neutral stance goes well with that, and within the Ryzom lore and gameplay mechanics there is ample room for it (again, unlike most other mmos out there, many of which, like Shaiya, are designed to have complete seperation of the factions outside of pvp, and sometimes complete separation of any players outside of towns and cities, as is the case with guild wars).

Factions evolved in Ryzom well after we had established a cooperative community.Therefore the peaceful interaction was the norm. I am most proud of how we have tried to maintain that cooperation.-Kil

I don't see what the big deal is. I am anti-everything and I have no problems getting around to zones using the neutral TPs. There are convenient neutral TPs near enough to all high level zones (5 min run at most). The only issue really comes to PR TPs though most PR zones can be accessed within 10 mins from the nearest neutral TP. Once you get the spawn points, that opens up your options even more (wink). I can only assume that there will be changes to those of us who declare Marauder and perhaps something will change for neutrals as well.

It was proposed during a Taliari meeting (long ago) that citizens with good standing could get the TPs for their nation, no matter their faction. I would rather see that implemented.

Ever tried to get to the northern Lagoons of Loria?
Karavan/Neutral : easy (Neutrals go through the portal from Heretic's Hovel)
Kami: need to cross the region or sneek/fight through a good part of Heretic's Hovel

Or southwest Trench of Trials:
Kami/Neutral : easy (just use the Teleport to Grove of Umbra and use the Portal down there)
Karavan: need to cross the hole region

Southern part of Underspring
Kami/Neutral: just from the teleport through the portal
Karavan: fight/sneek through half the region or find your way through Zora and run to the portal

Northern part of Abyss of Ichor
Karavan/Neutral: just from the teleport through the portal
Kami: cross half the region (and through the portal depending on the chosen teleport)

btw.: all of those are great digging spots because of the amount of aggressive animals in the region
try crossing a region in digging gear without suffering dp ;-)

(Kami-aligned player speaking)


Death port. I also took the opportunity to raise my fame with Lagoon Brothers. Invuln, run into their camp to get missions, die, death port to north. Dig for however long, sell to hawker. Complete missions at your leisure.

I mastered Lakes dig first, as a Kami, and still dig lakes primarily (when I'm not in PR). The only "annoying" feature of digging in Loria as Kami is swimming to the Avendale port if you want to dig in the (very safe) middle area.


Jungle isn't exactly known for having rough aggro. ToT, also, is easy once you move away from the Tyrancha/Varinx wall at the Kami TP (not especially difficult), though occasionally the Cutes are annoying near the middle pillar.


Portal is at the Knot of Dementia Kami TP. Again, Jungle .. aggro? You don't see those two words used together very often.


With the exception of swimming to Avendale portal in Lakes, this is one of the more annoying trips for Kami in dig gear. Higher levels can just run through some aggro spawns, but lower level players might not have that luxury.


These actually aren't that bad. I would list a few other TPs as being annoying or slightly biased:

• Heretic's Hovel and Lagoons of Loria (Kara): Poor placement of one or both of them, making one a waste of a TP (would suggest moving Loria TP, since HH is neutral).
• Scorched Corridor: Kara effectively has two TPs in the region, one on each side of the main aggro walls: the surface TP next to a lovely Shalah grind spot and the Windy Gate TP very close to the zone portal, bringing them out next to the Kami TP.
• Nexus: Kami TP and Tribe location makes it very easy to get to southern Abyss of Ichor. I have not visited the Kara TP in Nexus. Both of these are available to Neutrals, however.
• Sunken City: Kami TP in the middle of the region in a place patrolled frequently by KP and Raj. Kara TP nestled in a corner mostly safe from KP, near a bunch of prized Amber spots, yet has Vorax camping. The lake is within Melee Prot Aura + Speed Up distance for Kara.
• Forbidden Depths: Kami TP location makes it blindingly easy to reach a mostly-safe dig spot at the south east corner of Sunken City.
• Land of Continuuity: Both TPs are conveniently out of the way of most Kitin Patrols, and it isn't particularly hard to navigate between the two TPs. There are a handful of safe-to-dig mats near the Kara TP.
• The Fount: Kami TP is blocked off by an aggro wall. Again, not a problem for people who no longer need to be in the Zone, but for low-level players it's harsh. I haven't seen a safe opening yet, though I'm sure it happens.
• Supernodes: Kara has two TPs very close to the SNs, while Kami has to run from either the Enchanted Forest TP or the Gate of Obscurity TP for the southern batch of SNs. GoO is low level, and EF isn't exactly difficult if the KP is on the other side, but the time involved gives Kara a slight advantage.
• Higher-level towns: For a Kami trying to reach Natae or Avendale, there's a significant Hike involved. For a Kara trying to reach any of the desert towns, the TPs are very close. Thankfully at least Min-Cho is still a nice run for Kara.

In the Desert, I'd say that both sides are equal. Kami has direct teleports into the towns and fast access to FF digging with a Kami tribe nearby, but Kara has easy teleports into towns, as well as a few extra conveniences (easier to reach Butcher trainer from Kara TP).

In the Jungle, I'd give the advantage to Kami, except in Void. The Kara TP is very conveniently located near a great grind spot with creatures of various types and the highest-level plants of the zone. Kami TP is close to Plods and lower-level plants.

In the Lakes, I'd say both sides are mostly equal. Kara has the advantage with the towns and middle-of-zone access to Loria and Fount, but Kami has easier access to more mat types in Loria, though a death port is required. The area around Enchanted Isle Kami TP is an amazing place to level Lakes digging and crafting of everything up to q200.

In the Forest, the advantage definitely goes to Kara. Hidden Source might be equal for both for traveling -- I have only used the Desert-Forest portal for as long as I can remember -- but Kara has the advantage in every way in every other zone in the region.

I don't spend a great deal of time around the Kara TPs, so there may be a few biases against them that I haven't experienced. But in general, from my experience, things are fairly equal with perhaps a very minor skew towards Karavan.

Neutrals have a great time getting around to the surface zones due to access to the best of Kami and Kara TPs, including some of the q250 zones, as well as easy access to some PR zones. In terms of traveling, digging, and skill grinding, I see no place where Neutrals are lacking except for fast, easy access to the Supernodes.

(Apologies, as this was longer than I intended)