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#64 Eingetragen von Azazor vor 5 Jahren [en]

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***DEL***

Hors sujet, restez dans la dicussion svp

Zuletzt geändert von Tykus (vor 5 Jahren)

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fyros pure sève
akash i orak, talen i rechten!
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#65 Eingetragen von Sinvaders vor 5 Jahren [en]

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Jorgensen

Maybe it is time to restart the Aniro server and have two different kinds of Ryzom with different codes of conduct.

Well, if you don't see the advantage created at all level by players using multiples account against those who play with only one character ...
Concrete example:
Digging, while a single toon can dig around 400 mats per 20 minutes someone who have 4 can dig 1.6k mats per 20 minutes ... if you don't see how this can bring a disrespectful advantage when grinding a craft branch ....

And +1 to Azazor.

A bit of topic to those who talked about alternate GH for storage. I agreed with you on this point but at the same time why not proposing to create guild missions to increase the storage size available for guilds?

#66 Eingetragen von Aleeskandaro vor 5 Jahren [en]

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It was said this would be rapidly implemented

Tykus

In few days, i will post the complete explanation on the forum and when Ulu put the limit I will change de CoC

Please explain why after so many years of standstill there is a sudden urge to punish people who have been playing by the rules, when this effort could be put into implementing the things that have been on the timeline collecting dust.

Ulukyn

Sorry if you misunderstand it, maybe too obvious for us that's not possible to change the CoC like that without discussion.

Thanks Ulu for your response, but there seem to be different takes on this, your response appears to just caml everyone down rather than offering any real solutions, also why is the general attitude of CSR's in charge of informing this so aggresive? Please have all details cleared before you do inform something, the chaos you guys unleash out of lack of preparation sometimes defeats the whole well-intended purpose of adding to the game.

Tykus

Of course it's legal, we could have banned multiboxing... subscriptions have nothing to do with it... we don't prevent you from playing all your accounts, but only 2 by 2...

Also the reply above is not what you expect from someone who supposedly wants to hear player's opinions. It is that of someone wanting to impose a radical change would say, so please do speak up openly about what your plans for the game are and actually do hear players for once.
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I think in order to fix a problem we all agree should be fixed (Botting) you're taking a way too radical stand and punishing players who simply play more accounts, without any use of third party software involved. Why are you aiming to punish those who haven't done anything wrong? I'm sure theres a better way to identify and deal with botting client-side, network-side, or server-side. What is easy it not always what its best.

You also mentioned the real cause of this change to be foreseen imbalances in the new storyline events.

Ulukyn

And with the storyline that's what we're going to do. Make the story evolve and add new things...

And then the alts issue came up (on my side, as a developer).

With the storyline we will add new challenges. Sometimes the best group (which can be composed of only 4 players) will be rewarded. If the best team turns out to be 4 alts (and this is not impossible because it is in some cases an advantage) it will be rather disappointing for us.

Why not impose a partial restriction specifically for these new challenges then? Most of them already barely use the alts for training, you only see one or two players actually mutibox on OPs and others, maybe ban this specific action instead?

Zuletzt geändert von Bisugott (vor 5 Jahren)

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Bisugott(Atys)

#67 Eingetragen von Flute vor 5 Jahren [en]

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Hello Everyone,

I am reasonably new to the game (only a few months at most) and I play Ryzom because I like the playstyle (especially harvesting and crafting).

The biggest issue is although a lot of the content I like in the game can be done solo, to do it effectively I really need another person and sometimes a 3rd to assist. For example digging, yes can do solo, with a CP’er can get 4+ times the resources in the same timespan, with a 3rd person I can now do it safely in areas where this is a lot of agro mobs (which incidentally will always prioritise me over the juicy herbivore that’s between it an me).

I love the freedom to play the way I want. It even has a section on the front page about Freedom.

Freedom: There is nothing more important

In Ryzom there are no classes to choose. Develop all the skills of your character harmoniously or choose to concentrate on one skill and become a master. You are not forced to choose a faction when you create your character. Join a faction during your journeys, or not.

You don't have to fight in PvP, but you can. Join a guild whenever you are ready for it and build up alliances, or just start your adventures alone or with your friends.

Search for the most valuable materials on Atys to create your own unique equipment with which it is easier to defend yourself against your enemies. Hunt the mightiest bosses on Atys. Conquer an outpost and drill materials for your guild.

Do your own thing or make an impact on the politics. Develop your character in the way you want to and start your own story.

I also love to socialise and there are some very helpful people in chat which is great. But when I play, chat in universe is a majority of languages I cant understand, which I am fine with because I am also happy to play solo. Again your front page has a section on community.

Community: A real one.

Ryzom is available in German, English, Spanish, French and Russian, and features a great multilingual community that is mature, helpful and friendly. Everyone can talk and roleplay in their own language; therefore, it is not mandatory to speak a foreign language.

Join us to be part of the family!

Now to the issue at hand for the decision, Cooperation. You cant force people to cooperate, and as I have shown (in the highlighted sections in the quote) your front page even states I can play my own way which may or may not be solo).

Two comments one after the other by Tykus seem to be conflicting in the desire for cooperation.

Tykus

We decided to lower the number of characters played at the same time, on the one hand to put the focus back on what makes ryzom's own identity, which is cooperation.

If the main focus of Ryzom is cooperation there is nothing on the Ryzom main page that states this, actually the thing that stands out is Freedom: There is nothing more important

Tykus

We could have decided that only one client could be launched, but we've set our limit at 2, because in less populated timezones, having an avatar to help with drilling or healing can be quite acceptable, if not essential.

I wouldn't say essential unless I wanted to dig in q250 areas, and even then 2 is not enough for digging with any form of safety. I am sure a lot of people can do it, but as I said I am new, I enjoy digging and crafting so therefore quite squishy.

I did not spend much time looking through the forums or the main page for anything about cooperation and couldn't find it, but if its a desired identity for Ryzom I should not have to look far, it should be on the main page with Community, Freedom etc.

For all my limited experience (other than OP battles, which I will never be a part of as so far they have all happened at 2am or 3am my time and a game is not so important that I will get up at that time to play it) Ryzom does not reward or enforce cooperation at all. There are no mechanics in the game that distribute loot between all parties involved in the hunt/dig etc. All kill/loot missions must be repeated multiple times as only one character gets credit for a kill.

So for the majority of the game cooperation is not needed at all therefore I cant understand a decision to try and enforce cooperation(which is not mentioned of the main web page) that goes against freedom(which is on the main web page as "There is nothing more important".

Sorry for the ramble.
Flute

#68 Eingetragen von Sinvaders vor 5 Jahren [fr]

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About digging in q250 zone with a fair enough safety, it will come with experience.
Digging in PR is another story specially in q250 zone with the predictable kitin patrol, but same with experience you can manage to be quite safe (learning how to detect pat etc).
For sup digging, alts are giving a non-negligible advantage, you took way less time to emptying a node which result of:
- less troubles with climatic conditions change (you can dig more in a time frame);
- increasing your own safety while digging (you don't need others real people to dig a node while the said spot is really dangerous to be in);

Same goes for super nodes in PvP prime. The use of alts for this purpose is killing what should stay an "end-game" challenge for many others.
Supreme materials are in the top and they should stay hard to collect (digging supreme ask for involvement in this task).
If you are against PvP you can still dig sup on traditional spot in others prime area, but they remain dangerous because prime roots are a very dangerous place by nature and once again the use of alts reduce a lot this dangerousity.

#69 Eingetragen von Generallee vor 5 Jahren [en]

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Tykus

We decided to lower the number of characters played at the same time, on the one hand to put the focus back on what makes ryzom's own identity, which is cooperation.

So, here we go. You want to force players into a certain play style by restricting their freedom. You really need to revise the text and definition of the game on your homepage then. You encourage a behaviour (such as coop) by promoting freedom and curiousity to explore new and creative ways to approach things, you suppress behaviours by implementing restrictions (such as ban for cheating).

Tykus

We could have decided that only one client could be launched, but we've set our limit at 2, because in less populated timezones, having an avatar to help with drilling or healing can be quite acceptable, if not essential.

I don't understand how you cannot see this contradiction. Having an avatar to help with drilling or healing IS multi-boxing (according to your own definition) and is NOT in line with earlier discourse about encouraging cooperation.

Tykus

However, being able to afford a "challenging team" alone makes no sense at all. It's a part of the game that disappears.

Are you kidding me? Who are you to decide if playing several accounts at the same time for a player makes sense or not? For those who do use multiple accounts, this obviously makes perfect sense. I find this highly insulting to be told what makes sense and what does not. Let the players decide what they find meaningful and making sense, not you.

Tykus

In terms of multiple subbed accounts: A lot of you have multiple subbed accounts, to increase storage capacity, to be able to play different PR at different times. But they don't walk around with all their avatars on the bark at all times.

What specific harm is it for the entire community to walk the bark with several avatars (This has not even been an issue for years and years)? If there are specific instances of the game where this could impose a problem, then you should implement the restrictions related to those, such as op fights, RP or other events, not make a general restriction with some minor exceptions here and there.

#70 Eingetragen von Guarddog vor 5 Jahren Mehrsprachig

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So what happens to those of us who have multiple people in the household who play at the same time and sometimes each use a single alt? Will we get get banned for have 4 accounts activated at one time eventhough we are 2 or 3 people each using one or no alts? Can the "anti-cheat" software distinguish between 1 person controlling many accounts or several people controlling 1 or 2 accounts across multiple computers?

I don't understand how you can stop multi-boxers without also impacting families who play together in a single household.

Zuletzt geändert von Guarddog (vor 5 Jahren)

#71 Eingetragen von Jenn vor 5 Jahren [en]

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Guarddog

So what happens to those of us who have multiple people in the household who play at the same time and sometimes each use a single alt? Will we get get banned for have 4 accounts activated at one time eventhough we are 2 or 3 people each using one or no alts? Can the "anti-cheat" software distinguish between 1 person controlling many accounts or several people controlling 1 or 2 accounts across multiple computers?

I don't understand how you can stop multi-boxers without also impacting families who play together in a single household.

1. they said for familly, they would give more accounts

2. what is this "anti-cheat" software ? it exists, the same way, for windows + mac os + linux ???

(very curious about this "magic" software...)

Zuletzt geändert von Jenn (vor 5 Jahren)

#72 Eingetragen von Zarden vor 5 Jahren Mehrsprachig

Mehrsprachig | [English] | Français

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Hello,

First, the game rules are cristal clear today : multiboxing is allowed up to 4 toons, boting is not. Cheaters don't belong here and should be banned. But as long as it's not proven that people cheat (and it doesn't belong to players to prove things, if they want to be part of "the hunt" they should do it privately through tickets), debating about them and specifically saying their name publicly should not be allowed. This has been done for weeks now especially on French Uni. I think this was extremely disrespectful to the players that were targeted by these improvised trials.

Using alts hurts the game? in a way, yes. I see new players training with an alts; why would they bother playing with a real player that will have to leave at some point, may be bothered if he die and may do mistakes? Let's rely on my second self instead! Sure, but by doing so you're going to play the game in a very slow and stationary way. Grinding against aggro mobs, using enchants and switching roles on the go as needed (heal/ele/tank) is in my opinion a much more interesting and enjoyable experience, but it's also more demanding and it doesn't fit everyone. Some just play Ryzom to relax, or are online all day long On and Off. Do these people still belong in the game? I think so, we need people in the game, even if everyone's not able to kill a kitin with a blindfold and a hand tied in his back!

Almost everyone I know have one and use it more or less. I personally have a FTP alt that I use one to CP while diging, or to help me grind my last lvls (~240-250), which is very tedious in a team as experience gets very low. On the other hand I know some players that always play with their subscribed alt, checking for bosses with them, grinding, coming to Opwar; some even have their own guild with this only alt in it. In my opinion, these players evolve in a parallel Atys and should be encouraged to play with others. Which is not what we're doing here.

Instead, we're targeting the visible bit of the iceberg. I know very well Beef, Zauza and Generallee that all have been using 3 alts On and Off over the past few years. They are not lonely players; I've teamed with them more than often, and each of them is a pillar of their guild. For players that are On when no one is around, I think multiboxing is a good way to boost numbers up and allow them and their guild to play every aspect of the game. If there was thousands of players around, it wouldn't make sense, but that's unfortunately not the case on Atys today. Truth is, the heads you're shaving off are pillars of the community, and if they leave the game many will follow. That's not a threat, just the simple truth.

About the effect these players have on OpWar, I'm convinced that it's very marginal. They make heal pods stronger and can deal some ele damage to the opponent, but dying to ele on OpWar in the first place shouldn't happen nowadays will all the supmats around. PvP jewels cut pretty much all the damage. What really win or loose a battle is the ability to move the pod, the good situation awareness of tanks (killing enemy artillery...) and pure damage coming from artillery. Pure number can counterbalance that, but it's not enough (as maras have proven over the last few battles that they handled beautifully).

So to conclude, I think that this decision won't have any positive effect on the game. Instead, it would be wiser to promote collaboration through other incentives. For example there could be some team missions/tutorials on Silan to learn to new players how to heal in team, how to use enchants and switch roles. If some people have no clue about what I'm talking about, I'd be very happy to organize some ingame trainings on how to be switch roles and be more effective with small team of players.

Zuletzt geändert von Zarden (vor 5 Jahren)

#73 Eingetragen von Oxxy vor 5 Jahren [fr]

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Salut.

Donc si j'ai tout compris ceux qui ont les moyens de financer un ordinateur performant doivent être "puni" parce que d'autre n'ont pas les même moyen?

Vous prenais également des plainte de personnes qui ont eu multiple ban, qui EUX on avouer avoir tricher, qui reviennent 3 mois tout les deux ans pour troll et j'en passe pour des gens qui sont correcte avec tout le monde, partage des bon moment avec leurs amis malgré leur quadra compte, etc ?

Je pense à Beef qui lui aide beaucoup les autres joueurs et qui s'investi du mieux qui le peut en payant 4 abonnement tout les mois depuis plusieurs année, Generallee et Mathimat pareil.

Je trouve ça pas très correcte. Quand nous étions pas en confinements leur 4 abonnement ne vous déranger pas tant que ça .. On verra après le confinement quand il y aura bien 1/3 des abonnements en moins chaque mois si vous aller pas revenir la dessus :)

Et Azazor certe le RP c'est bien mais pas pour tout le monde. T'es personnes pour obliger les gens a RP ou quoi que ce soit. Alors accepte juste que ceux qui veulent pas RP ne le font pas. On est sur un jeu avant tout. Si eux ce qui les amusent c'est d'atteindre leur limite a jouer 4 compte c'est très bien pour eux.

Ça ce plaint d'avantage etc mais l'avantage ils payent pour l'avoir. presque 32 euros par mois voir plus. Donner vous le même moyens ou arrêter de vous plaindre.

Bonne journée.

Zuletzt geändert von Shiijian (vor 5 Jahren)

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#74 Eingetragen von Guarddog vor 5 Jahren [en]

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Jenn

Hi
1. they said for familly, they would give more accounts
2. what is this "anti-cheat" software ? it exists, the same way, for windows + mac os + linux ???

(very curious about this "magic" software...)

I have no idea how they propose to detect multi-boxers. I assumed through a software add on like NProtect or Valve anti-cheat.

So all multi-boxers need to do is claim they are playing with family and they get more accounts?

Either using alts should be banned altogether or there should be no limit. Otherwise there will always be loop holes and endless argument concerning how many are good for the game. If using multiple accounts is considered cheating at any level, then it should be banned at all levels of offence, even with one alt.

If use of one alt is considered permissible or at times essential, then a serious look at the difficulty balance of the game should be considered. Perhaps mob difficulty should fluctuate with the current region or server population. That would discourage people from bringing in hordes of alts to kill bosses as bosses would become more difficult with more people.

#75 Eingetragen von Jazzy vor 5 Jahren [fr]

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Je pense sincèrement que chacun defend sa propre vérité.
Ceux qui defendent leur alts ont plaisir à jouer comme cela alors que ceux qui joue solo voient le jeu autrement. Chacun a raison et tout le monde a tord.
Beeficus doit arreter de tout ramener à lui un peu, la paranoïa n'est pas bon pour le coeur... Et l'agressivité ne l'aidera pas à la compréhension de son problème. Je pense que cette mesure est une mesure qui aurait dut etre prise bien avant mais que peut etre que ce n'etait pas la priorité à l'époque.

Aujourd'hui, ceux qui se sont investi avec plusieurs comptes se sentent agréssés, c'est normal! Cette mesure arrive trop tard.
(et pourtant je suis contre la pratique du multi-alt).

Ryzom s'est voulu ouvert... pour donner de la liberté aux joueurs sur de nombreux points: rp, gp, imaginaire, créativité etc...
aujourd'hui Ryzom paye le fait qu'il n'ait pas assez restreint les choix des joueurs. Sur ryzom, on peut autant etre mage qu'artisant ou tank, on peut etre kami puis passer marau pour redevenir kara, des kara peuvent s'allier avec des marau pour vaincre des kami, on a la possibilité de faire des macro pour aller plus vite dans certaines choses.
Si pour vous, forer avec 3 alt pour aller plus vite, chasser à 4 pour simplifier la tache ou faire un "boss" sans appeler d'autre en renfort vous convient... jouez sur console, il n'y aura personne pour vous embeter!
maintenant si vous avez plusieurs comptes car vous jouez ces personnages independemment les uns des autres, avec un rp, une participation au developpement de l'histoire de ryzom... c'est pas juste pour vous.

Beaucoup disent "si jveux pas rp, jsuis pas obligé" c'est vrai! mais... on est sur un mmoRPg, qui se veux evolutif par la volontés et les choix des joueurs!
comment le jeu et l'histoirede ryzom peut-elle evoluer si vous ne faites pas de rp?
Les Maraudeurs n'existeraient pas s'il n'y avait pas eu de RP.
Parce que si pas de RP, alors il faut pouvoir donner des TP 250 et Primes aux neutres de culte (hors rangers qui ont obtenu cette grace)
Parce que si pas de RP, pas de factions, pas de possibilité d'interagir avec l'ennemi, pas d'echanges, de marchandage, de missions.
TOUT ryzom est basé sur le RP.

Est-ce que cette mesure est prise pour ne pas etouffer le RP de Ryzom? Est-ce pour favoriser les relations intercommunautaires bien simplifiés depuis le traducteur en channel alentour? (que je trouve genial depuis que je suis revenu!)
Au lieu de gueuler avec mepris comme certains le font, pourquoi ne pas poser les questions à RF et argumenter, proposer, prouver. Comuniquer quoi!
(j'avoue que la mesure prise n'a pas été amenée en douceur... c'est un tord)

bon jeu tout de meme à tous!

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Jazzy Mac'Plantey
Chef de Bai Nhori Drakani
Commandant de Bai Trykali
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#76 Eingetragen von Magez vor 5 Jahren [en]

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Jazzy

Je pense sincèrement que chacun defend sa propre vérité.
Ceux qui defendent leur alts ont plaisir à jouer comme cela alors que ceux qui joue solo voient le jeu autrement. Chacun a raison et tout le monde a tord.
Beeficus doit arreter de tout ramener à lui un peu, la paranoïa n'est pas bon pour le coeur... Et l'agressivité ne l'aidera pas à la compréhension de son problème. Je pense que cette mesure est une mesure qui aurait dut etre prise bien avant mais que peut etre que ce n'etait pas la priorité à l'époque.

Aujourd'hui, ceux qui se sont investi avec plusieurs comptes se sentent agréssés, c'est normal! Cette mesure arrive trop tard.
(et pourtant je suis contre la pratique du multi-alt).

Ryzom s'est voulu ouvert... pour donner de la liberté aux joueurs sur de nombreux points: rp, gp, imaginaire, créativité etc...
aujourd'hui Ryzom paye le fait qu'il n'ait pas assez restreint les choix des joueurs. Sur ryzom, on peut autant etre mage qu'artisant ou tank, on peut etre kami puis passer marau pour redevenir kara, des kara peuvent s'allier avec des marau pour vaincre des kami, on a la possibilité de faire des macro pour aller plus vite dans certaines choses.
Si pour vous, forer avec 3 alt pour aller plus vite, chasser à 4 pour simplifier la tache ou faire un "boss" sans appeler d'autre en renfort vous convient... jouez sur console, il n'y aura personne pour vous embeter!
maintenant si vous avez plusieurs comptes car vous jouez ces personnages independemment les uns des autres, avec un rp, une participation au developpement de l'histoire de ryzom... c'est pas juste pour vous.

Beaucoup disent "si jveux pas rp, jsuis pas obligé" c'est vrai! mais... on est sur un mmoRPg, qui se veux evolutif par la volontés et les choix des joueurs!
comment le jeu et l'histoirede ryzom peut-elle evoluer si vous ne faites pas de rp?
Les Maraudeurs n'existeraient pas s'il n'y avait pas eu de RP.
Parce que si pas de RP, alors il faut pouvoir donner des TP 250 et Primes aux neutres de culte (hors rangers qui ont obtenu cette grace)
Parce que si pas de RP, pas de factions, pas de possibilité d'interagir avec l'ennemi, pas d'echanges, de marchandage, de missions.
TOUT ryzom est basé sur le RP.

Est-ce que cette mesure est prise pour ne pas etouffer le RP de Ryzom? Est-ce pour favoriser les relations intercommunautaires bien simplifiés depuis le traducteur en channel alentour? (que je trouve genial depuis que je suis revenu!)
Au lieu de gueuler avec mepris comme certains le font, pourquoi ne pas poser les questions à RF et argumenter, proposer, prouver. Comuniquer quoi!
(j'avoue que la mesure prise n'a pas été amenée en douceur... c'est un tord)

bon jeu tout de meme à tous!

the RP that you mean and the RP in RPg are different things.

***DEL***
Off topic

2 mal geändert | Zuletzt geändert von Tykus (vor 5 Jahren)

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#77 Eingetragen von Azazor vor 5 Jahren [fr]

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Je veux pas être méchant, mais des gens qui partent parce qu'ils peuvent plus utiliser leur 4 alt en même temps, bon, un moment, faut peut être qu'ils se remettent en cause non? Je ne nie pas que ça les gêne. C'est sûr que quand t'es habitué à jouer d'une façon, c'est compliqué de changer. Mais voilà, quand t'aime vraiment un jeu, tu t'adaptes.

ça fait des années que beaucoup subissent le multiboxe de certains. Vous y pensez à ceux qui se sont barrés à cause de ça?
Des années que les fana de RP se rongent les ongles à voir l'état de délabrement du rp dans ryzom. Et pourtant, ils restent là, pour certains. Mais là aussi, y'a eu hémorragie.
Des années qu'on se tape des alt à la pelle, des bots qui sonnent vide. Et pourtant, on est toujours là. Tout ceux qui défendent ce changement, et qui l'ont ou non exprimé ici, ils sont encore là et seront toujours là même si le changement ne se fait pas. Parce qu'ils aiment ce jeu.

Alors "ramèch" à la fin, pour une fois, c'est aux autres d'apprendre, de s'adapter. Il s'agit pas de les forcer à jouer RP, ou de jouer coop en plus. Juste de plus utiliser leur 4 alt en même temps. C'est pas la fin du monde non?

Ben si, apparemment, ça pleurniche, ça menace de partir, tellement incapables de s'adapter.

Donc comme l'a dit jazzy, le ménage va se faire tout seul. Et bon débarras aux autres.

Zuletzt geändert von Azazor (vor 5 Jahren)

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fyros pure sève
akash i orak, talen i rechten!
élucubrations
biographie

#78 Eingetragen von Magez vor 5 Jahren [en]

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Azazor

Je veux pas être méchant, mais des gens qui partent parce qu'ils peuvent plus utiliser leur 4 alt en même temps, bon, un moment, faut peut être qu'ils se remettent en cause non? Je ne nie pas que ça les gêne. C'est sûr que quand t'es habitué à jouer d'une façon, c'est compliqué de changer. Mais voilà, quand t'aime vraiment un jeu, tu t'adaptes.ça fait des années que beaucoup subissent le multiboxe de certains. Vous y pensez à ceux qui se sont barrés à cause de ça?Des années que les fana de RP se rongent les ongles à voir l'état de délabrement du rp dans ryzom. Et pourtant, ils restent là, pour certains. Mais là aussi, y'a eu hémorragie.Des années qu'on se tape des alt à la pelle, des bots qui sonnent vide. Et pourtant, on est toujours là. Tout ceux qui défendent ce changement, et qui l'ont ou non exprimé ici, ils sont encore là et seront toujours là même si le changement ne se fait pas. Parce qu'ils aiment ce jeu.Alors "ramèch" à la fin, pour une fois, c'est aux autres d'apprendre, de s'adapter. Il s'agit pas de les forcer à jouer RP, ou de jouer coop en plus. Juste de plus utiliser leur 4 alt en même temps. C'est pas la fin du monde non?Ben si, apparemment, ça pleurniche, ça menace de partir, tellement incapables de s'adapter.Donc comme l'a dit jazzy, le ménage va se faire tout seul. Et bon débarras aux autres.

whats the difference between multibox and bot?

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