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#52 Eingetragen von Azazor vor 5 Jahren [fr]

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mathimat

Donc si je t'ecoute azazor il n'y a qu'un seul style de jeu, qui apparement est le même que le tien.

Je n'ai rien vu ecrit dans le Coc qui me forcait à ne jouer que avec d'autres joueurs.

C'est un jeu libre avec des règles d'accord, mais pas avec des obligations sur la facon de jouer, tant que tout le monde est respecté. En tout cas c'est comme ça que je voyais le jeu.

Rien ne nous oblige à jouer de la meme facon et si, contrairement à ce que tu dis, j'apprécie quand meme ce jeu, c'est pas a toi de dicter si c'est mon genre de jeu ou pas.

Si aucune discussion n'est possible quand les GMs prennent une decision aussi importante, alors c'est que ryzom a "perdu de son essence" comme vous dites.

En utilisant le multiboxing, vous ne jouez pas juste dans votre coin. C'est pas la même chose que de jouer réellement solo, avec un unique perso connecté en même temps. On vous l'a déjà expliqué. Je ne vais pas revenir dessus.

Et sinon le dialogue, il est là. Mais le dialogue, c'est pas: "ouin si on fait ça, ben j'm'en vais". C'est chacun qui argumente, sans chantage à la noix. Et ensuite, les règles seront instaurées. ça déplaira à une partie des joueurs. C'est pas grave. S'ils ne sont pas content et trouvent les nouvelles règles insurmontables, et bien au revoir. Personne n'est obligé de jouer.

Encore une fois, ce n'est pas vous (ni moi d'ailleurs) qui édictons les règles du jeu, ni les principes de base d'un MMORPG (aucun n'accepte le multiboxing que je sache). C'est l'équipe, en écoutant éventuellement les joueurs, sans pour autant les suivre forcément. Si vous n'êtes pas d'accord, devenez bénévole et changez les choses.

3 mal geändert | Zuletzt geändert von Fyrenor (vor 5 Jahren)

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#53 Eingetragen von Erisapple vor 5 Jahren [fr]

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This is a game that's supposed to value each persons gaming style. I feel like they're about to fail at that.

Some say alts are bad because these people aren't teaming with other players and that's not how a mmorpg should be played... There is at least one person who states they have never and will never team with anyone because they like the satisfaction of being able to do it alone. But they are very social. So is this person wrong? Should they spend money elsewhere?

Someone brought up boss camping... How is a few alts looking out for a spawn different from a guild or faction posting players to do the same? And the same would go for digging.

People keep saying that Beef can't be that good or that he's playing less efficiently than he used to. For all you know something has happened to make him not as fast at alt-tabbing or how ever he does it. We all have good and bad days and IRL distractions. I have watched people afk digging and it's never been him.

These people that have multiple alts are helpful to the community, both new and old players, with advice and gear. Not to mention the added real world money they're paying. The money is a good part of what keeps all of us being able to log in. Servers aren't volunteers and accept gratitude as payment.

This isn't like some other games where you get uber, kick the whole servers rump and then sell your toon for top dollar. Alts don't hurt anything any more than an organized guild or faction does. If you don't like playing with alts, don't have one. If you don't want to team with an alt, ask the person to leave it behind or don't team. It's pretty simple.

As for PVP and OPs...Get over it. Every army has stupid drones that just do what they're told. If you feel out numbered or whatever, recruit more. Offer a collage fund or something. There will always be a winner and loser and the tides will always turn.

What needs to be dealt with is people that are actually using 3rd party programs to run alts. No matter if it's 10 alts or 1. Deal with that, not the people that are thought to be too good to be true. The dev team needs to work on that not dictating how paying players live on Atys.

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#54 Eingetragen von Mithian vor 5 Jahren Mehrsprachig

Mehrsprachig | Français | English

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I will try to be as neutral as possible and just give my opinion on this topic:

I think, that's IMPORTANT to remind what most of people are struggling with: The point here, is not to judge players that are using 4 toons at the same time. But, to use 4 toons at the same time while running 3RD PROGRAM to CONTROL ALL OF THEM.

I can, somehow, understand the statement of players that are running 4 toons only with the macro system proposed by Ryzom. And, yep, that those kind of players that are the most impacted by the change Ryzom Team is talking about, because they were doing it in all legality, but, they'll pay for a small among of players that are most probably not following this part of the CoC.

Here we are now. A MAJORITY of players, that are running only 1 or 2 accounts at the same time would be now equal with players that used to run 3 or 4 accounts at the same time. On a case or other, there will be a part of the community that will lose. And, most of the time, the minorities are losing.

Also, it seems like there is a mix for some people that think that, running an account, WITH or WITHOUT a 3RD PROGRAM is as not fairplay as the players that are doing it. But, imo, that's an another discussion.

Zuletzt geändert von Mithian (vor 5 Jahren)

#55 Eingetragen von Magez vor 5 Jahren [en]

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these half measures covered in hypocrisy are splitting the community, well done.
you should outlaw specific things. like no alts at OP. these new rules are causing grief for no reason.

things that made me scratch my head:

Tykus

using external software that allows the player to facilitate the management in question (botting)

redefine botting i guess. tip: read wiki on 'bots', tip2: meaning of 'no human input needed'.

Ulukyn

So you can log in and control 4 characters at the same time. But... we will also make more controls and the video can be a proof of automated actions.

can you edit the OT and put a proper explaination of what multiboxing is and what botting is, i see alot of people screaming syncronization and feel they are clueless.
azazor for example seems to think multiboxing=botting
they also seem to think anything below 1 second response time must be robotic voodoo. (based on last nights rocket convo)
i know a lot still play on ancient pc's but come on, everything modern has ms response time.

Naveruss

« Playing 4 accounts at once is not "a personal army". It is not even half a team. »

C’est une remarque sérieuse ? Quatre personnages en même temps, ça reste énorme, même si ça n’égalise pas une équipe complète ! Avec ce raisonnement, on pourrait aussi bien dire « Je joue dix personnages en même temps mais ça va, ce n’est même pas la moitié d’une grosse guilde.

so someone else makes something seem bigger then it is (army), and he compares it to a smaller size (team), and then you sarcasticly make it bigger again (guild) and call him out on it?
won't attack the original person that 'Make a mountain out of a molehill', right.

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#56 Eingetragen von Moniq vor 5 Jahren [en]

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Ati

Who is going to pay for the servers to run?

Me.

#57 Eingetragen von Heernis vor 5 Jahren Mehrsprachig

Mehrsprachig | [Deutsch] | English

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Ich habe mir alles durchgelesen und irgendwie kommt etwas nicht zur Sprache: Das Design des Spiels, oder für welchen Zweck es gemacht wurde:

Eine Entscheidung des Spiel-Designs war die Forcierung zur Kooperation zwischen den Spielern.

Jedes Design kann auch andere Möglichkeiten der Anwendung bieten, die dafür nicht vorgesehen sind. Ich denke da an folgendes Beispiel:

Beispiel

Ein Prozessor ist dafür entworfen, Rechenaufgaben zu übernehmen. Nun gibt es bei Prozessoren, die hart arbeiten, auch eine Wärmeentwicklung, die nicht vermeidbar ist.

Man kann den Prozessor aktiv kühlen, heruntertakten, oder die Wärme auch ableiten lassen. Generell wird der Prozessor gekühlt oder heruntergetaktet, was eine Entscheidung des Designs ist.

Ein Missbrauch des Designs ist allerdings, wenn man die Wärme des Prozessor als Heizung der eigenen Wohnung verwendet, wofür dieser nicht vorgesehen war und ist, was aber niemanden davon abhält, diesen so zu verwenden.

Um es auf den Nenner zu bringen:

Ein Element der Designentscheidung von Ryzom ist die Kooperation zwischen den Spielern.
Dieses Designentscheidung kann natürlich auch zu anderen Anwendungsmöglichkeiten führen, wie zum Beispiel "Multiboxing".
Nun gibt es mehrere Möglichkeiten:
- Will man an der Designentscheidung festhalten, dass ein Spieler allein pro Charakter gleichzeitig spielbar ist? (den Prozessor aktiv kühlen)
- Will man an der Designentscheidung festhalten, dass ein Spieler allein pro Charakter gleichzeitig spielbar ist, aber das Spielen als Einzelner vereinfachen? (aktive Kühlung mit Heruntertakten des Prozessors)
- Oder will man "Multiboxing" aktiv unterstützen? (Prozessor als Heizung für die Wohnung verwenden)

Wenn jemand sagt: "Du spielst nicht richtig", dann meint er damit: "Benutz deinen verdammten AMD CPU nicht als Heizung für deinen Keller!" Heißt, das Spiel ist nicht für "Multiboxing" gemacht worden, es ist nur ein Missbrauch des Designs.

Man kann das tun, und es funktioniert. Einige haben auch Spaß daran. Aber es ist ein kurzes Vergnügen auf Kosten des Spiels. Viele werden gehen, da sie sehen, dass Ryzom nur "heiße Luft" produziert, wenn das Spiel wirklich weiter auf diese Weise genutzt wird.

Und nun an Beeficus und jeden anderen Multiboxer: Es ist nicht eure Schuld, dass ihr die Möglichkeit aktiv genutzt habt. Es wurde aber auch nicht aktiv beworben und auch wurde es nicht in der AGB garantiert. Es gab nie eine Garantie, dass der Verhaltenscodex, nie geändert wird. Was ich aber verstehe ist, dass die Ankündigung der Änderung plötzlich kam, was ich selbst nicht ganz verstehe. Wenn allerdings das Multiboxing der einzige Grund war, oder der überwiegende Grund war, Ryzom zu spielen, dann ist es hier ein falscher Schwerpunkt, den Ryzom nie promotet hat, sondern nur eine Notlösung ist oder war. Jetzt ist es nun so, dass immer mehr Multiboxing nutzen, und das schadet dem kooperativen Teil des Spiels, da Mutltiboxer die Notwendigkeit der sozialen Kooperation größtenteils umgehen. Und ja, es ist ein europäisches Spiel, das meist von europäischen Spielern gespielt wird in der europäischen Zeitzone. Wenn ich ein amerikanisches MMORPG spiele und es nur einen amerikanischen Server gibt, würde ich mich auch dieser Zeitzone nach Möglichkeit anpassen, wenn ich das Spiel ernsthaft spielen will. Nur meine Meinung dazu.

Und nun bin raus aus der Diskussion.

2 mal geändert | Zuletzt geändert von Heernis (vor 5 Jahren)

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#58 Eingetragen von Beeficus vor 5 Jahren [en]

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The soul of Ryzom is and always was the community.

I am going to repeat myself for those still concerned about 3rd party software. I do not use 3rd party software to control my toons. I do not automate any actions beyond what the in-game macros allow. I do not need to. I have recorded my gameplay for Tykus, and I have been open about my setup. There are videos of it on youtube. Mithian, you have seen personally what I can do before the merge when you joined AA on Arispotle. I have even offered to allow the devs to use teamviewer to thoroughly examine my PC for any signs of 3rd party software.

This is nothing more than a vendetta. Harassment. Please put an end to this nonsense and enforce the code of conduct as it exists. Not just for me but for everybody who has suffered harassment and left the game over it already.

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#59 Eingetragen von Caellan vor 5 Jahren [fr]

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**DEL** Out of topic

Zuletzt geändert von Heli (vor 5 Jahren)

#60 Eingetragen von Generallee vor 5 Jahren [en]

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So, I’m actually very good at breaking things down, and this discussion is obviously not about multi-boxing. It is about defining the purpose of Ryzom gaming and how stringently it should be enforced.

I see two very simple strategies here. Either you make this game for players and adapt to their will and needs, being flexible and only put up certain frames and boundaries to maintain stability. OR you decide to stick to the core principle of a MMORPG and remove any element that conflicts with the essence and ‘true’ way of playing the game (sounds like Azazors philosophy). One aspect of the latter would for instance be to remove the possibility to use multiple accounts at the same time because the game is not designed for this (even if its technically possible).

The first strategy will require some sacrifice of these core principles to maintain a happy and motivated player base. The second strategy will not, but it will alienate players in the long run. This is evident looking at the gaming industry as a whole and the strategies they have applied which led to the downfall of many beloved franchises (sticking to their own definitions of gaming, not the communities).

I can actually respect any decision here, but what I cannot respect, is a half-way, lazy and coward decision to try and keep some elements while eliminating others belonging to the opposite strategy. Let me clarify. If you decide to go for the more conservative approach and stick to the game design stringently and enforce any style or behaviour from players that is not in parity with the games core purpose (ie multiplayer and role play element) then you cannot at the same time keep certain elements which contradicts this, such as banning four accounts on at the same time but allowing two, or allowing people to play untagged etc. It would contradict what you want to achieve on the basis of eating a cookie but still keep it.

Personally I got hooked with Ryzom because it was a SANDBOX MMORPG which I thought was defined as a freedom to creating your own game style (ofc without breaking any formal rules), but it seems that this definition has now been challenged through a quasi-discussion about so called multi-boxing.

#61 Eingetragen von Paradera vor 5 Jahren [en]

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**DEL** Out of topic

You all seem to be forgetting the huge role that ping plays, I also often see on my "Main" that my 2 healer alts heal at the same time.

2 mal geändert | Zuletzt geändert von Heli (vor 5 Jahren)

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#62 Eingetragen von Elke vor 5 Jahren [en]

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**DEL** Out of topic

5 mal geändert | Zuletzt geändert von Heli (vor 5 Jahren)

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#63 Eingetragen von Tykus vor 5 Jahren Mehrsprachig

Mehrsprachig | Français | [English]

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First of all, multiboxing is indeed the fact of ordering several characters at the same time in a legal way. Anything that refers to an external program also applies to a single character and is punishable by the code of conduct.https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/28406/1 &post187224=en#7
We decided to lower the number of characters that players can use simultaneously because it's obvious that already a small minority of players are affected.
As mentioned above, Ryzom is a game that can be played on small machines, no need to have a racing beast to run it properly.
It can indeed be considered a disadvantage compared to those who have computers capable of running several clients at the same time.
But that's not the point.

We decided to lower the number of characters played at the same time, on the one hand to put the focus back on what makes ryzom's own identity, which is cooperation.
We could have decided that only one client could be launched, but we've set our limit at 2, because in less populated timezones, having an avatar to help with drilling or healing can be quite acceptable, if not essential.

However, being able to afford a "challenging team" alone makes no sense at all. It's a part of the game that disappears. Moreover, as Ulukyn announced at last night's RF meeting, the upcoming additions will help to strengthen cooperation between the players, so our decision was intended to be in that direction.

I hear anger and recriminations, but not all change are easy.

In terms of multiple subbed accounts: A lot of you have multiple subbed accounts, to increase storage capacity, to be able to play different PR at different times. But they don't walk around with all their avatars on the bark at all times.

To have several subbed account, is not necessarily made to have half a team permanently with either.

We understand that some players have based their game strategy on this system and that this change is even more complicated for them. In the meantime, the discussion remains open, as long as everyone expresses themselves politely and stays on topic.

Answers dealing with the use of third party programs will be deleted as irrelevant.

Zuletzt geändert von Tamarea (vor 5 Jahren)

#64 Eingetragen von Azazor vor 5 Jahren [en]

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***DEL***

Hors sujet, restez dans la dicussion svp

Zuletzt geändert von Tykus (vor 5 Jahren)

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#65 Eingetragen von Sinvaders vor 5 Jahren [en]

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Jorgensen

Maybe it is time to restart the Aniro server and have two different kinds of Ryzom with different codes of conduct.

Well, if you don't see the advantage created at all level by players using multiples account against those who play with only one character ...
Concrete example:
Digging, while a single toon can dig around 400 mats per 20 minutes someone who have 4 can dig 1.6k mats per 20 minutes ... if you don't see how this can bring a disrespectful advantage when grinding a craft branch ....

And +1 to Azazor.

A bit of topic to those who talked about alternate GH for storage. I agreed with you on this point but at the same time why not proposing to create guild missions to increase the storage size available for guilds?

#66 Eingetragen von Aleeskandaro vor 5 Jahren [en]

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It was said this would be rapidly implemented

Tykus

In few days, i will post the complete explanation on the forum and when Ulu put the limit I will change de CoC

Please explain why after so many years of standstill there is a sudden urge to punish people who have been playing by the rules, when this effort could be put into implementing the things that have been on the timeline collecting dust.

Ulukyn

Sorry if you misunderstand it, maybe too obvious for us that's not possible to change the CoC like that without discussion.

Thanks Ulu for your response, but there seem to be different takes on this, your response appears to just caml everyone down rather than offering any real solutions, also why is the general attitude of CSR's in charge of informing this so aggresive? Please have all details cleared before you do inform something, the chaos you guys unleash out of lack of preparation sometimes defeats the whole well-intended purpose of adding to the game.

Tykus

Of course it's legal, we could have banned multiboxing... subscriptions have nothing to do with it... we don't prevent you from playing all your accounts, but only 2 by 2...

Also the reply above is not what you expect from someone who supposedly wants to hear player's opinions. It is that of someone wanting to impose a radical change would say, so please do speak up openly about what your plans for the game are and actually do hear players for once.
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I think in order to fix a problem we all agree should be fixed (Botting) you're taking a way too radical stand and punishing players who simply play more accounts, without any use of third party software involved. Why are you aiming to punish those who haven't done anything wrong? I'm sure theres a better way to identify and deal with botting client-side, network-side, or server-side. What is easy it not always what its best.

You also mentioned the real cause of this change to be foreseen imbalances in the new storyline events.

Ulukyn

And with the storyline that's what we're going to do. Make the story evolve and add new things...

And then the alts issue came up (on my side, as a developer).

With the storyline we will add new challenges. Sometimes the best group (which can be composed of only 4 players) will be rewarded. If the best team turns out to be 4 alts (and this is not impossible because it is in some cases an advantage) it will be rather disappointing for us.

Why not impose a partial restriction specifically for these new challenges then? Most of them already barely use the alts for training, you only see one or two players actually mutibox on OPs and others, maybe ban this specific action instead?

Zuletzt geändert von Bisugott (vor 5 Jahren)

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