GENERAL

Should we also report people with no alts, but who still might be cheating with third party tools? For instance recharging enchants too fast or always healing their partner instantly when the health drops to exactly the same level? That sort of thing is very suspcious. I think they should have to provide home videos of their gameplay too just to be safe. What about people who never talk? Or people who talk really weird like an AI? Some of those are probably automated systems levelling while the player sleeps. This is a big problem. We know that tens of thousands of man-hours have been spent by the world's top developers to create undetectable cheat-clients for ryzom the game with 100 bored middle-aged players. We should maybe just report a few general players each day for random spot-checks. I definately think we should force every suspicious player (you know the type) to install a small, unobtrusive camera in their gaming room, over their shoulder, so the devs can watch them play at any time. In case cheating. Why would you disagree unless you have something to hide?

I'm just throwing ideas around here. we don't need to implement every single one.

Salut Beeficus,

J’étais une des personnes à regarder ta performance en live.

D’abord, merci pour ce partage.

Quelques points de réflexion :

• Je suis impressionné par ta dextérité au multiboxing, ton aisance à te balader entre tes quatre comptes et ton organisation graphique. Bref, tu utilises le multiboxing au maximum de ses capacités.
• Je comprends que quelqu’un qui n’a pas vu cette vidéo puisse croire que tu triches. Il n’y a aucun doute, tu respectes le code de conduite. Je ne suis pas sûr que lorsque le code de conduite a été mis en place, on s’est imaginé que des personnes allaient exploiter le multiboxing à une telle extrémité. On pourrait dire que tu es à la limite de la légalité.
• Si tout le monde utilisait le multiboxing à ta manière, je ne suis pas sûr que j’apprécierai de jouer à Ryzom.
• Je comprends ton sentiment d’injustice par rapport à l’éventualité d’un changement du code de conduite. Tu as investi toutes ces années à payer quatre comptes, tu as développé une façon de jouer, et là, tout est remis en question.
• Une solution pourrait être celle de l’avantage acquis. Que ceux qui jouent avec plusieurs comptes à la date du 12 mai, date du premier message de ce fil de discussion, puissent continuer d’y jouer. Ainsi, Beeficus garderait son avantage, et cela éviterait qu’une armée de joueurs utilise le multiboxing comme il le fait. Reste ensuite la question des avant-postes. Peut-être, tout simplement, interdire les avant-postes aux Alts.
• Problème pour ceux qui ont plusieurs comptes avec une même adresse IP. Normalement, à un compte correspond une carte de paiement, et à une carte de paiement correspond un nom. Si l’on a deux fois le même nom, on peut considérer que c’est la même personne.

I think the camera idea might not be completely legal, and extremely intrusive :p
But I guess if someone plays in a VERY VERY suspicious way, you could always tell a CSR and discuss about it with him.
But since your message is about people with no alts using a bot, I'm not sure that's the right topic, since the proposition of change for the CoC will not change anything for them :)

@soleya guess this was ironic to show how ridiculous the whole discussions about proof is.

Do you mean I would need to get DRESSED to play? That's a big NO. /s

Je pense que les dév devraient proposer un sondage avec ces 3 choix:
- interdiction d'avoir plus de 2 comptes connectés en même temps(proposition initiale des dév)
- interdiction d'avoir plus de 2 comptes connectés en même temps sauf si possibilité de prouver qu'on utilise pas de logiciel tiers (compromis de kyriann)
- autorisation d'utiliser plus de 2 comptes mais interdiction d'utiliser un logiciel tiers (comme avant en fait)

Bien sûr, il y aurait trois conditions à respecter:
- évidemment, on ne fait pas voter ses alt. C'est un vote par joueur. Bon, ça suppose la confiance après...
- Ce sondage ne serait que purement informatif, pour que l'équipe puisse ensuite faire son choix en toute connaissance de cause. Ryzom n'est pas une démocratie.
- Peu importe le résultat, pas de menace de quitter le jeu avant la prise de décision (même si ça n'empêche pas ensuite chaque joueur de partir si le jeu ne lui plait plus, mais ne pas le dire avant, car ce serait une forme de chantage).

Pour moi, je ne connais pas de mmo, autre que Ryzom qui permet de jouer avec plusieurs comptes.
Donc ça ne me pose pas de problème. Je ne pratique que le forage avec un reroll soigneur.

Si j'ai bien compris, jouer avec x comptes poserait un problème avec certains contenus futurs, qui serait optimisé pour 4 joueurs, d'où ma question :
Ne pourrais ton pas bloquer le multiboxing uniquement lors de ses nouveaux défis ? Si c'est possible techniquement.

As Jorgensen pointed out in an ironic way, proving that you have the skill to multibox without cheating is pretty difficult.

I think these 3rd and 4th alt could be forbidden on certain activities :
- OP War
- Future new features from the story line that Ulukyn mentioned
- Killing bosses if there's only one real player in team (otherwise it doesn't really matter)

If those rules were not respected, it would be pretty easy to prove what happened with a few screenshots and a ticket. Multiboxers may be forced to give the name of their toons to GMs when they start playing with them to make things easier.

The idea is basically to keep them out of the most competitive content so no one feel like they are and advantage over them.

I think using alts on Magic spots is not a big advantage; it's very easy to take them down with a small team in "mobile" PvP as once one or few of them is down all macros don't work anymore and players with 3 alts don't have the mobility of "Normal" players. But this could be forbiden as well.

Que les inquiets se rassurent, je me réabonne pour endiguer le flot de départ ! Blague à part, jolie performance de Beeficus.

A mon époque, le multiboxing existait, mais n'était pas non plus monnaie courante. C'était plutôt la "signature" de certains joueurs, et ça faisait plus sourire qu'autre chose. Je repense notamment à Xylog et Canonia.

Ne jouant plus, je suis incapable de visualiser l'importance que cela a pris ces dernières années. En tout cas, ça soulève les foules. Il a bien longtemps que le forum n'avait pas été aussi animé ! Peut-être est-il venu le moment de relancer les vrais débats intéressants, comme celui d’un Ryzom full-PvP ?


Retourne troller seul dans sa caverne

I was the first one to swear 3000% that beeficus was cheating (so in reality... I'll be dead...). After seeing his stream I realized how wrong I was.
I then tried to understand my mistake

And I understood that it was a server optimization that doesn't send the information in real time, but rather aggregates it to send it all at once. (I still wonder how I could not have thought of that? :( )

Therefore, although it may seem obvious to the eye in the game, this is not really the case.

I wanted to make my mea culpa and say that one of the reasons why I, from my point of view as a dev, made this change was totally unfounded.

Bonne idée - mais est-ce possible ?
Je veux dire, comment, en pratique développer de telles sfonctionnalités ?

Sans développer quoique ce soit, plutot en suivant le meme principe que l'idee de base : on met en place la regle, et (comme l'a dit Zarden), si elle n'est pas respectée, c'est facilement prouvable avec screenshot/video et ticket.

Vous aimez rendre une chose simple compliquer dis donc, la limitation a deux personnages en simultané ne demande aucune main d'oeuvre ou modification autre que les conditions d'utilisation générale, en plus d'éviter de nouveau problème lié à l'abus du multi-compte a outrance et rend le jeu beaucoup plus équilibré que de faire une longue liste de ce qui est autorisé ou non de faire avec quatre personnages en simultané...

Car donner un passe droit à un joueur qui utilise quatre personnages en simultané n'empêchera pas le staff de devoir traiter régulièrement des tickets et autre réclamation concernant ce joueur et sont utilisation du jeu qui lui rapporte un avantage que tout le monde ne peut pas se permettre d'entreprendre ou d'apprécier.

Et si vraiment vous désirez laisser la possibilité à un joueur de contrôler quatre personnages en simultané, je vous invite a reconsidéré les avantages en terme de gameplay et de relation sociale que pourrait apporter un Ryzom bien plus pvp ne disposant que d'une zone 250 non pvp. (Et certainement pas la meilleur).

I don't engage in PvP so have no real "horse in the race" so to speak.  But  I see I am going to have the unfortunate opportunity to argue / disappoint both sides of this argument.   I did not "quote" from individual posts so much as presenting commonly made arguments by taking snippets from various posts (in italics).  I didn't not want to address any one person in particular ... Just picking comments of views that were put forth by several people.  My biggest issue is that, as the great Senator from New York, Daniel Moynihan said:

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."

And that's what we have here .... Baseless accusations primarily directed at a single player from other players upset about losing in PvP because they can not understand, or prefer not to understand, how they are being outskilled.   These accusations have been completely and utterly disproved and the powers that be have openly and unabiguously stated so (see post 150).

BAN the players using software that allows synchronized actions Problem: the proofs requested by the staff are impossible to provide even if the fault is highly visible in the game (Yes yes, it is VERY visible).

There are many people who claim the earth is flat using the very same argument ... They use those exact words .. Are we convinced the earth is flat by those words?   I am not.  The proofs have been provided; I have seen them, the game staff as seen them.  Having seen the proof ... It is readily apparent that he use of 3rd party software is by no means necessary to perform the recorded actions.  It's a false claim and has been accepted by the game staff that no cheating was taking place by the accused.     And it's not a recent change, people were doing the same thing pre-merge.

But since you want to talk about the way the game was intended to be played why don't we ban Chanchey NPC hunts? They were intended as guild challenges, not to be killed by a random mob.

I have not seen anything in the CoC, lore or  anywhere else that says this is the way it must be done.   And historically, it has been rarely done.  Before the pandemic, we often cancelled the hunts because we didn't have the 14 people necessary to take down the tougher ones.  Looking at the Ryzom bosses, page:

2020-20-02 Aen:  Out of 11 Guilds, 2 guilds had more than 1 member present. 1 guild had 2
2020-20-02 Sergio:  Out of 11 Guilds, 3 guilds had more than 1 member present, 2 guilds had 2

2020-20-02 Aen:  Out of 11 Guilds, 1 guild had more than 3 members present. 2 guilds had 3
2020-20-02 Pei:  Out of 12 Guilds, 3 guilds had more than 1 member present, 2 guilds had 4
2020-20-02 Lixie:  Out of 12 Guilds, 5 guilds had more than 1 member present, 1 guild had 4
2020-20-02 Sirgio:  Out of 9 Guilds, 7 guilds had more than 1 member present, 1 guild had 4

And while guilds do conduct their own hunts, only 1 or 2 are capable of taking an NPC down and it's rare that s single guild will take down all 4 ... Doubtful now if  the # of alts limited.   While it may be an opportunity for guilds to take on alone, like many other game mechanics, there is no prohibition or even suggestion that factions, alliances, toon genders, or any other group of people can't do the same.

As to the hunt being a post merge thing, that statement is also blatantly false.  The practice was routine on both the german and english servers since the getgo.

I would like to add that in the U.S. with many different time zones that it makes it difficult to play as cooperatively as I and many people that I know wish that it could be. Sadly that is the reality.

The 48 continental states has 4 time zones ... same as Europe.  The population difference is however real in that I think the player base is skewed to Europe due to most events ocurring during Euro hours which is a function of staff availability.   Is that a matter of not enough players volunteering, or not enough volunteers being selected ... that's a question I'm in no position to answer nor has any player to influence the decision making in this regard.

As to PR digging, there are obvious advantages to large guilds here ... But, at SNs, this has been usurped by factions and alliances.  On Arispotle, the player base decided this was unfair ... What fun is a battle when one side has an inherent advantage due to control over all Sup and OP mats ?  The player base (not game mechanics, lore or staff) decided to eliminate the advantage and (almost) no one killed anybody at SNs.   There were a few diehard RP folks who disagreed but they didn't have much success .... They were welcomed and had access, until they attacked and in turn were killed. 

Even outside of SNs, the larger guilds have an advantage .... Having guards  to draw off KP or aggro is a big advantage.   I remember feeling disadvantaged when I'd be camping a spot in Wastelands along with another player and we'd both get killed by aggro 5 minutes before Sup popped.  They had an alt sitting in an OP, I didn't so by time I got back... Sups were dug out but that was a choice I made.  I choose not to use alts .. To me it feels like an unfair advantage and like I'm ducking a challenge .  But that's a personal choice, and I have no inclination to impose my choice on others.

How can the game and the story of Ryzom evolve if you don't do RP?

Been here for 15 years, I enjoy the game as an escape but, I don't make believe that I am my toon., I liked the original 3 Star wars movies, but I don't dress up as a character and head out to Comicon.  I don't feel in any way drawn to kill a kara person I am passing because I happen to use Kami TPs.  And there's no escaping the fact that there are people in game who use RP as an excuse to behave badly.  You want to kill members of another faction at SNs because you want the advantage of superior gear so you can have the advantage at OP battles, so be it, game mechanics allow it.  But it is not mandatory, you are free to let your conscience decide.   But if you are going to kill peeps trying to get to  a new land or peeps doing missions, to my eyes, that's just being the back end of a donkey.

it is currently not possible to detect who is using third party software to control multiple characters!... I tried to manage 4 characters at the same time using the macro available in the game and yes it is possible but it is also hell so have fun controlling 4 characters at the same time in areas that exceed the level 150.

The game developers have refuted this contention and agree that everything the accused party did was perfectly legal.... let it go.   One can play 2 games at the same time using 2 screens.  On a daily basis, I move from Game to BM web site to Rocket Chat to Bunny Tools Spreadsheets simply by moving the mouse to other screen or window ... Is that botting ?   If you divide a screen into 4 windows, and locate your 4 action bars at the intersection of all 4 screens, you can easily make 4 mouse clicks very very quickly ... Even faster if you are jamming the #1 key as you move the mouse in tight circle of 1" diameter at the intersection.   This is not 3rd party software / botting.  Every action is initiated by a separate key stroke.  The source of the complaint is "a player (or players) has become very skilled at this and their skill level is affecting whether they can win or not.

The bot argument is simply a red herring or what is commonly referred to here in the US as "alternate facts".  I have seen someone controlling 4 characters fighting KP and taking Lil Pei.  Not something I would attempt because the last thing I wanna do in game is "work hard".  That does not mean I was not extremely impressed by watching individuals capable of doing exactly that.

On the other hand .... I read a user comment in Uni that essentially asked the question "Does having 4 accounts fall under the category of "Pay to Win" ... Are you not simply "paying more" money to gain an advantage in game.  This is a very valid question, and to my eyes the one which the discussion should be focused.

Now this change, my first reaction, as it was the time in 2004 when the 'lore' that many profess to adhere to was invalidated by the pvp change, was to leave. Then I realize when I was gone I missed Ryzom so much, each game i tried i compared to her, to how she functions, to how i feel in her, to her beauty.

This may be considered off-topic but I hope that it is not edited out because it is essential to understanding the underlining mindsets resulting from the merge and why we see widely different views.  Id ask that any editing wait till the subject is drawn back into the main topic.  On Arispotle, we lost 40% of our player base when PvP was introduced.  Before anyone argues the point, understand why .   At the time WxW was the big thing and they had many imitators and the competition provided player options to choose from.  The reason many folks came and stayed in Ryzom was that there was no PvP in the beginning.  The PvE crowd had one choice, the PvP crowd had a handful and therefore PvE oriented folks tended to gravitate to Ryzom

Over time, on Arispotle anyway, the player base was far less RP oriented and OP battles were boring if it was too one sided.  A substantial portion of the player base, lets call them neutrals / trytonists if you prefer (name is irrelevant) decided to maintain a balance defending Kami held OPs in Jungle / Desert and Kara held OPs in Lakes / Forest.  If it looked like one side had too many folks.... maybe one guild would switch sides.  This is how the "pick up" games in stick ball, basketball , football teams were picked on the city streets of America .... In the next game, the losing team got to pick one player from the other side.    Goal was to have a competitive game, not a goal of annihilating the enemy.  You can only improve your own skills playing against matched opponents.  Competing against a lesser skilled or lesser equipped team will not improve one's skills, is no challenge, no fun and eliminates any sense of accomplishment.  I'm not saying that one way of thinking is right and another is wrong, but it had beneficial results.

Arispotle was also more cooperative as a result of less hardline RP.  OP mats and sups were openly shared and there were "community OPs" to which all the guilds owning OPs contributed mats and cats to be doled out to smaller / newer guilds.  One of the complaints heard from "immigrants" from other servers was that Ari was too cooperative and as a result Uber weapons and NPC armor sets were too widely available.   We didn't fight over SNs ... So we were not losing 30-40% of sups to degrades and digger deaths.  One of the reasons (true or not I don't know) given for the possessions wipe at merge was that that it wouldn't be fair to peeps on other servers since Ari was so loaded with uber gear.

While it took a lot of words, many not directly relevant to the discussion at hand, it does explain the basic cultural disconnect that leads to widely disparate views on the topic.    The point is that we are products of our environment and cultures so the different communities will come from a different basic approach to game.   We can argue that each of ours is better but even assuming that such an argument could be "won", winning is a failure in and of itself as you can't have winners w/o losers.  And losers feel disadvantaged and lose interest.  A reduced population benefits no one. The goal should be finding a solution that everyone can live with.

If some people are able to use 4 accounts at the same time and can PROVE that they can do it without a bot, .... Let it no longer be up to CSRs to prove that a player uses a bot, but up to players to prove that they don't.

As the saying goes, we have "been there, done that".  It's very easy to ""when you have three alts following you and obeying you, it's very easy to see and detect"." ...that they are doing something.  It is also very easy to prove that  "what they are doing can be done w/o 3rd party software ***as has been demonstrated***.   Post 142 lays this out clearly, and the evidence has been accepted by the powers that be (Post 150) .... so suggestions by people whining about being  out skilled and unable to accept that fact should be deleted.

Normally, an account has a payment card and a payment card has a name. If you have the same name twice, you can consider that it is the same person.

In 2004, I was paying for 3 toons .... Myself, my 13 year old and my 8 year old ... my 14 year old was playing something else and my wife still won't play .... Anti-social :) ... They didn't have credit cards at the time

For me, I do not know of mmo, other than Ryzom which allows to play with several accounts.

The very 1st line at the Forge meeting on this topic was posted by the CSR conducting the meeting:

"Definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiboxing"

If you read the link:

==========================================
Most game developers allow multiboxing in their games. To date, Age of Conan, Aion, Anarchy Online, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Dungeons and Dragons Online, EVE Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Heroes of Newerth,[citation needed] EverQuest, EverQuest II, Lineage, Lineage II, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Rakion Latin-Internacional, Warhammer Online and World of Warcraft all allow multiboxing. The Chronicles of Spellborn and Rift allow hardware multiboxing, but prohibit software multiboxing. Game publishers do not provide technical support for multiboxing, so while it may be allowed, these games may not be designed to be multiboxed.
=======================================

in addition to avoiding new problems related to the abuse of multi - excessive account

Again, there has been  no abuse by the targeted player and powers that be have stated such.  So can we just drop the bruised egos, claims of cheating and 3rd party software and any other non-relevant alternative facts ?  What has been claimed with respect to the targeted player never happened.

That still leaves the question as to whether having multiple accounts is "Pay to Win" ... If that question is a valid one, where should the line be drawn ?   Why can I increase my rewards with a 2nd account and not a 3rd or a 4th.   I have been unable to advance remaining melee skills because of the lack of people to team with.   While I personally feel that using alts is cheating myself of a challenge and missing the opportunity to interact with others, should there be a way for me to buy my way into faster progression or more rewards in game.

This is a hard question and as has been said many will view their own opinions as gospel and others flawed.  While, as I said I don't have a horse in the race in this regard as I would not use alts if they were free and unlimited.  I do feel that we need a solution that leaves those with a stake in the issue left unscathed and unfairly accused.  My initial thoughts lean toward "situational restrictions" rather than blanket , across the board restrictions.   But in order to begin that discussion the accusations and bruised egos need to be set aside.

I will just tell you something that people is keeping to tell the us.

Atys is NOT Arispotle. It's not because something happened/was allowed on Arispotle that it should be happening/allowed in Atys.