Abolish artificial restriction "Fraction/Nation<->Guild - Refused - Ryzom Community Forum

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Forums » IDEAS FOR RYZOM » Refused » Abolish artificial restriction "Fraction/Nation<->Guild

Is that a good idea? / Ist das eine gute Idee? / C'est une bonne idée ?

Yes (Write what could develop positively) / Ja (Schreib, was sich positiv entwickeln könnte) / Oui (Écrivez ce qui pourrait évoluer positivement)
Atys: Gidget, Jahuu, Kaetemi, Luminatrix, Yper

5

20.8%

No (write what would be wrong with it) / Nein (Schreib, was falsch daran wäre) / Non (écrivez ce qui ne va pas avec)
Atys: Aleeskandaro, Azazor, Bradbreddan, Dukenono, Hayt, Lacuna, Mermaidia, Naveruss, Revvy, Sinvaders, Sowen, Syron, Timna, Vauban

14 (4)

58.3%

Other thoughts (write it down) / Andere Gedanken (Schreib es auf) / Autres pensées (écrivez-les)
Atys: Agy, Balkhog, Heernis, Placio

4

16.7%

Other
Atys: Dorothee

1

4.2%

Abstain

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#97 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en]

Moniq

What you mean by "not really neutrality"?

Ok, if neutrals have so many disadvantages and factions have so many advantages (means mainly TP into high level zones obviously, thats like a magic mantra here), why didn't you join a shiny super overpowered faction?

You forgot who you're talking to, Moniq. Or have our previous arguments totally slipped your mind?

You know perfectly well that I'm in a faction; as badly as you may want them to, factions don't have a purity test that excludes those who don't fanatically worship one particular narrow interpretation of lore. And as much as you have historically denied whether I belong there because we interpret lore differently, it's one that actually matches my ideals.

That said, you've made it abundantly clear that you feel I don't belong in that faction, just as those like Revvy have made it known for over 6 years that those like me don't belong on Atys. So if you ever wonder why I hold some of the views I hold and speak out the way I do, reread the previous sentence and ask yourself how long you can be told you don't belong before it geta to you.

You still haven't told me any advantages of Neutrality though. The only one I can see is that fresh-from-Silan players can join a guild without grinding fame, and I don't consider that a big enough advantage to be balanced.

Last edited by Gidget (5 years ago)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#98 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en]

Gidget

You know perfectly well that I'm in a faction;

No I don't, I only know your guild. And faction was never important to me. So, are you neutral or do you have any allegiance? If not, why don't you join any then?

Gidget

You still haven't told me any advantages of Neutrality though. The only one I can see is that fresh-from-Silan players can join a guild without grinding fame, and I don't consider that a big enough advantage to be balanced.

Ok, if you are unable to see any, I will tell you some:
- Neutrality itself is the main advantage, you can stay out of faction conflicts
- You also do not need to work on fame
- You can work on your fame and have it balanced
- You can become a friend with all factions and civilization
- You do not have to do any rite
- You can become a Ranger (with a rite) to have access to high level zones (which is obviously sort of magic mantra here...)

I am sorry, I can't help myself, but you look like someone who wants advantages of factions while you keep your neutral status with its advantages (thay you even do not realize).

Again, if to be neutral do not fits you, you can go for faction that does. What is the problem?

And my question remains: What you mean by "not really neutrality"?

Last edited by Moniq (5 years ago)

#99 Added by Placio 5 years ago [en]

Revvy

Luminatrix
Is there any proof of it being this way besides "it's true because I said it's true"? I've read most of the existing lore and I don't remember any.
Yes, the Lore slash/ Lore Team.

Since you are marauder i think, you may want to ask them who's resurrecting marauder, you may be surprised to keep fighting Kami for example :P

Obviously, Homins do not have access to this information.

About Horongi's (which is composed of Marung and Nung)

If you want more detail here:
Nung Horongi
Marung Horongi
Tribe of the Witherings and Goo
ROLEPLAY - Dossier: Marung Horongi
Amber Cube of Nung Horongi

I honestly don’t see anything in those links that proves higher powers invented resurrection... the claims that two marauders learn how to resurrect could easily be exaggeration and legend, and again doesn’t explain how/where it came from. The current explanation of the source of marauder tp/spawn is their work with karavan defectors on the remains of the rainbow bridges. So their system may actually be an tryton based teleportation, while Kara and kami could very well be killing your original body when you tp and redirecting your data through the roots of atys to a natural or artificial spawn site. Again that was my hypothesis based on the fact that everything on atys respawns.

#100 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en]

Moniq - Have you forgotten our disagreements in the Ranger channel over defensive PvP versus utter pacifism, and how I argued that sometimes there is no choice but to take up arms? Or are you claiming that us Rangers are not actually a faction?On second thought, it may be best we don't consider Rangers a faction; if the hardcore folks want to change things to get Rangers out of their current guilds for factional purity then expect A LOT of backlash.

Also, you just admitted that you believe thirty cents equals a dollar by claiming that a bunch of tiny advantages balance a huge disadvantage. Three of the alleged advantages are ones that you and I enjoy despite not being Neutral while one of the remainders is that you can become someone who retains those advantages.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Gidget (5 years ago)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#101 Added by Revvy 5 years ago [en]

Placio

I honestly don’t see anything in those links that proves higher powers invented resurrection... the claims that two marauders learn how to resurrect could easily be exaggeration and legend, and again doesn’t explain how/where it came from. The current explanation of the source of marauder tp/spawn is their work with karavan defectors on the remains of the rainbow bridges. So their system may actually be an tryton based teleportation, while Kara and kami could very well be killing your original body when you tp and redirecting your data through the roots of atys to a natural or artificial spawn site. Again that was my hypothesis based on the fact that everything on atys respawns.

I didn't stated high powers invented (Jena, Maduk, <insert>) the resurrection.
It is most probably a technology from the earth itself (from Atys pre-terraformation era).
As for Marauder teleportation system, a dissident branch of the Karavan (Hominist side) provide it.

Placio

.. redirecting your data through the roots of atys to a natural or artificial spawn site.

I like this idea, it remind me of the greek myth Gaïa or the version commonly modernized in FFVII (and movies) :)

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#102 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en]

Gidget

Moniq - Have you forgotten our disagreements in the Ranger channel over defensive PvP versus utter pacifism? Or are you claiming that us Rangers are not actually a faction?

No I simply do not remember the information, sorry. And I claim that Rangers is screwed faction, if you ask.

Gidget

Also, you just admitted that you believe thirty cents equals a dollar by claiming that a bunch of tiny advantages balance a huge disadvantage.

It was you who evaluated neutrals to be 30% of other factons. If you ask about Ranger faction, it is, by me, 130% compared to K/K. In your strange talk, 1 dollar 30 cents equal to 1 dollar.

If you are a Ranger, you already have access to high level zones and many other benefits, like bunch of respawn points more. Or almost free and safe traveling. Safe zone on each node. Not talking about "mysterous" movement of pathways closer to cities (paradox is that position in the Desert is, by me, even worse now). So yes, if I was Kami or Kara I would complain a lot how unbalanced it is.

What you mean by "not really neutrality"?
What "huge disadvantage" you talk about?

This is my last reply, because, you ignore what I was originally asking. You try to fight for your ideas but you are not giving me any solid arguments. Not talking about that matter of neutrality is disadvantage or just a little advantage for you. Well, in fact I think you are convinced about your truth and you tend to look for information that supports your view and bend or ignore any other logic that is in conflict with it. Sorry, but the way how you (not) present arguments is not working on me.

I say, if you are not happy with your allegiance, go and join other faction that fits you better.

btw: All Ryzom teams do recruit new members in case you really want to do something more than fill the forum.

#103 Added by Fyrosfreddy 5 years ago [en]

Gidget

I've seen enough fans try explaining a work of fiction to the authors that wrote it that I have doubts that anyone would agree with the "Because the author/dev said so" argument. In my experience, that argument only works when it's convenient. Of course, games are different in that they are more dynamic than novels or movies because the characters in a game are not all controlled by the author(s), so there is a higher likelihood of them saying something different tomorrow than there is for a book/show/movie. In fact, it's pretty much a requirement for games to take character actions and player feedback into account.

Your completely misinterpreting what I wrote and what I wrote supported your position. Arguing against it, weakens that position. .... Simply put, the Lore that exists is there because someone wrote it 15+ years ago. How the game is actually played differs widely from the original expectation. The argument that the 15 year old lore is carved in stone and can not be modified is a fundamentalist thought that rejects the history of human existence. The creators of Ryzom's "pre-history" are entirely empowered to rewrite that history.

To port over to real life ... the earth was flat and the earth was the center of the universe was universally accepted as "doctrine", religious or otherwise. Arguing with that was blasphemy. Then it wasn't, a round earth and a sun centric solar system became the "new truth" .... and now we have Flat Earth beliefs making a comeback, So no.... no truth is static, no lore is static. Even Game of Thrones has tossed "ancient lore" out the window over and over again.

So no... the truth is not static... IRL, accepted "truths" are debunked every day. The second largest religion in the US is "none" (Evangelical Protestant = 25.4% / Unaffiliated = 22.8% / Catholic = 20.8%). This is a substantial change. Was a time when women couldn't vote, certain people could not own property ... acceptable behavior between men and women has changed drastically.

So yes, the "truth " and "way it is" on Atys is constrained only by the folks who make the rules. Granted, it's always best that you follow a logical progression from one state to another ... but there's plenty of leeway there to go in any direction which inclusively works for the greatest number of people. If a % of the player base wants nothing to do with religions, and it's going to be forced on them because "the lore says so" ... simple fix the lore.

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#104 Added by Kaetemi 5 years ago [en]

Revvy

As for Marauder teleportation system, a dissident branch of the Karavan (Hominist side) provide it.

Source? For all we know, it could be Goo-infused Kami.

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Kaetemi

#105 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en]

Moniq - You have never considered any argument against your fanatically restrictive interpretation of lore "solid" in the past anyways, so I am not surprised that you are unwilling to accept that those who are impartial do not discriminate in a partisan manner; that the unbiased have no biases. Keep on saying neutral is neither impartial nor unbiased no matter how many dictionaries define it as such. But that will not change the simple truth that when Neutral is not neutral, then neutrality is not really neutrality.

As for Rangers being 130% of K/K, you ignore that the advantage of being able to be in a guild that would likely have been Neutral or Ranger had that been a possibility years ago is not nearly as big an advantage of being able to get to a 250/PR zone without a detour and a run to a specific spot the way we have to now. I would normally allow for the possibility that you have far different priorities than I do, but unlike you, I do not consider forced segregation to be a good thing.

Lastly, if Ranger is a screwed faction and (what passes for) neutral is so awesome, then when are you turning in your map and trekking to all the 250/PR areas? Besides, you refute that the truth is our only faith by clinging to falsehoods, and your desire for segregation goes against "Synergy, sharing and solidarity are our social rules" and "Unity is our strength", so you're halfway out of Rangerhood already.

******

Fyrosfreddy - I did not mean to argue against what you said, merely express skepticism that your words would matter to those who refuse to change their thinking no matter how many facts or how much logic is used. To them, the Lore that was written 15 + years ago is inviolable and immutable, and nothing you or I say will change that... though it may get them to try burning us for heresy. And the fact that the game is actually played vastly differently from "the original expectation" seems to be a real issue for some folks.

When you say, "The argument that the 15 year old lore is carved in stone and can not be modified is a fundamentalist thought that rejects the history of human existence.", you are pretty much restating my position. That is what I've been trying to get across to those who refuse to allow Atys to progress/evolve.

As for your last line, that is why my sig block is what it is. When you say "a % of the player base", are you including all players or simply those who come to these forums? Because I know a lot of long-time players who wouldn't touch this place with a ten foot pole. I consider their opinions just as valid as those who do come here, but I doubt they are ever taken into consideration. Some say they are the majority, but if you have 10 folks vote one way, 7 vote the other, and 20 who don't even know the vote is taking place, are those 10 really the majority?

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#106 Added by Revvy 5 years ago [en]

Kaetemi

Revvy
As for Marauder teleportation system, a dissident branch of the Karavan (Hominist side) provide it.
Source? For all we know, it could be Goo-infused Kami.

;)

-
Unfortunatly the Lore about Marauders (nomads tribe) is not yet entirely published (and i doubt it will be released, im not even sure Lorist know what to do with this faction anyway..)

You can read the biography of Melkiar to know more about the teleportation system, but you will still be hungry afterward :P

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#107 Added by Sinvaders 5 years ago [fr]

Or just go and talk to Lore team members. They can give you some input as well about it.

#108 Added by Moniq 5 years ago [en]

@Gidget

I already said all and your latest reply is as expected. You put words in my mouth, keep skipping between topics while you did not answer me yet. Thus I still don't know, what you actually fight for...

This failed.

#109 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en]

Revvy

Unfortunatly the Lore about Marauders (nomads tribe) is not yet entirely published (and i doubt it will be released, im not even sure Lorist know what to do with this faction anyway..)

Honestly, I'd like to see it. But it does make think that if they don't know what to do with the faction anyway, they may want to watch how the players play and see if their observations lead to inspirations.

Moniq

@Gidget

I already said all and your latest reply is as expected. You put words in my mouth, keep skipping between topics while you did not answer me yet. Thus I still don't know, what you actually fight for...

This failed.

Your latest reply is as expected too; I expected you to be a bit rude, a bit confused, and try to make me out to be an idiot simply because you are unwilling to accept the answer I gave to the question you asked.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#110 Added by Sinvaders 5 years ago [en]

Gidget

Revvy
Unfortunatly the Lore about Marauders (nomads tribe) is not yet entirely published (and i doubt it will be released, im not even sure Lorist know what to do with this faction anyway..)

Honestly, I'd like to see it. But it does make think that if they don't know what to do with the faction anyway, they may want to watch how the players play and see if their observations lead to inspirations.

Yes and no.
Players are the one who are making a faction alive ... but players needs to be drive to do so. If you don't give background to the players they will do, well, whatever they want.
Hopefully for us, there is working group for the marauder gameplay which include devs,lorist as well as players. (and we mainly know whats going on with resurrection because we asked for not being dependent on high powers for it as marauders are independent for teleportation(it has been rejected as you can guess)).

Yes: because asking players what they want for the "new" fresh faction make just sense.
No: because what players ask for as to be coherent with the existing world and lore.

I truly hope they know where they are going with the marauder faction.

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To talk about neutral: I also fail to see advantages for them. But freedom as a cost I believe. To me it makes sense to not allow neutral to use high level teleport pact as the kamis/kara most likely reserve this to they "real supporters/followers". They do not want to provide it to homins not aligned with them. (in my head it makes sense).
Now people not willing to be kara/kami/marauder are going to the ranger faction because they do want access to PR and 250 zones. I do not talk about trytonist here because 1) they are not really neutral 2) they are hiding themself in others faction on purpose.

#111 Added by Kaetemi 5 years ago [en]

Sinvaders

I truly hope they know where they are going with the marauder faction.

Hopefully down the garbage chute, and we get a proper implementation of ALL of the tribes instead. (You know, that thing where tribes fight over control of various areas of Atys.)

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Kaetemi

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