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IDEAS FOR RYZOM
Should we change to faction based PVP?
Yes, change the deathmatch PVP to faction PVP!
Atys: Cotare, Heernis, Jellona, Kaetemi, Kaylerys, Lacuna, Luminatrix, Mermaidia, Revvy, Sinvaders, Sowen, Tomstato, Vorazun		 13
48.1%
No, it makes no sense.
Atys: Aleeskandaro, Bazett, Eolinius, Jorgensen, Kurutani, Placio, Wirroy, Yper, Zendae		 9
33.3%
No, we are too few, there will be no PVP anymore!
Atys: Yuritau		 1 (1)
3.7%
Other thoughts (Please write it down)
Atys: Gidget, Maiyr, Victoriacamper		 3 (1)
11.1%
Other
Atys: Vanixia		 1
3.7%
Abstain 6
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#31 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en] 

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My two dappers;

It has gotten boringly quiet and stupefyingly stagnant as of late. Things have to change. However, any changes to the game have to consider not only the lore but also the players. All of them. Not everyone has the same motivations or hot buttons though, so if we want Ryzom as a whole to do well, we must all keep that in mind instead of assuming that our little bubble is The Only Correct Way. That sort of thinking will result in factional PvP alright, but of an OOC type rather than in-game where it belongs. I also firmly believe the old idiom, "You can't go home again.", so I have reservations about trying to go back to a place that can never exist again.

Now, here is a crazy idea, but also serious food for thought; as there have been a lot of folks crossing the traditional lines, why not rethink what "faction" really means and figure out a way to make "Alliance vs Alliance" work? Worlds evolve, so why shouldn't Atys? We can't go back, and holding the brakes isn't working, so why not go forward? Why can't we have a new paradigm?

Sadly, I don't have any real specific thoughts on how to do that right now, but I figured I'd at least try to throw out an idea of how to reignite the spark that seems to have been lost in the hopes that it will, at worst, serve as a catalyst for someone else to put a little flesh on that framework.
Heernis
You decide a side and fight for something higher... ranger for balance...
And that is part of why I am the way I am ;)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#32 Added by Revvy 5 years ago [en] 

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Namcha
Hello,

@Sinvaders & others

Yes I know about the "we are all friend" shift in the way of playing. Complains appeared about this since years !

( btw, after a swarm, it's normal that homins support together)

As I wrote in "is pvp rp", I think to solve this, one should always pay consequences of its acts : lose/win fraction of fame each time you exchange, gain xp with, rez, an enemy/ally. (so a scope not only focused on pvp act)

something like 0.05 per act is enough to loose your 100%. But in detail, like pvp points calculation, the amout could be weighted by the gap between your fame and the other guy one's.

As said earlier (and some others too), this is good really.
The game need to restrict a bit the players to give them directions, otherwise we fall into a boring gameplay overall (note the "overall" word, not for everyone but most).

When i talk about restriction its in gameplay ofc.

Take the Spires example
The change affected you mostly if you was Tag, so you accepted it, while other been neutral could just wanders and watch.

It is an example of gameplay driven restriction, that can do good for the game overall, and future community (that start to get very old.. we need fresh players = fresh mentality)

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#33 Added by Luminatrix 5 years ago [en] 

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Pardon me if I'm wrong but, from what I have heard, the Karas are now massively outnumbered, which is why some Kara guilds have alligned themselves with some Marauder guilds. Basing PvP on factions alone would put them at a severe disadvantage, surely?

I really like the idea of taking it a step further and allowing alliances to come into play. Faction politics can be really fun and exciting in general, as long as the people participating are reasonable enough.

What I don't like is the idea of being punished for helping someone from a different faction. I'm one of those dreaded carebears who just wants to make friends and help others. I have always found restrictions in other games that locked me out of creating a toon in the other faction (Aion) or didn't let me talk to players from different factions. Those limitations achieve exactly nothing besides being annoying and inconvenient.

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Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#34 Added by Revvy 5 years ago [en] 

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Luminatrix
Pardon me if I'm wrong but, from what I have heard, the Karas are now massively outnumbered, which is why some Kara guilds have alligned themselves with some Marauder guilds. Basing PvP on factions alone would put them at a severe disadvantage, surely?

I really like the idea of taking it a step further and allowing alliances to come into play. Faction politics can be really fun and exciting in general, as long as the people participating are reasonable enough.

What I don't like is the idea of being punished for helping someone from a different faction. I'm one of those dreaded carebears who just wants to make friends and help others. I have always found restrictions in other games that locked me out of creating a toon in the other faction (Aion) or didn't let me talk to players from different factions. Those limitations achieve exactly nothing besides being annoying and inconvenient.

The magic of Ryzom, Alliance still work if you are in team or league, or not tag ! :)

Last edited by Revvy (5 years ago)

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#35 Added by Neira 5 years ago [en] 

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Neira
If you find a way to prevent the abuse that had happened with the old system.

I just right now got the information that the flag-related bug that led to a ton of the systems abuse was fixed pre-merge by Ulukyn and then scrapped because the new system was put into place.
If said bug was fixed, then there's absolutely no reason why the old system isn't the one we're currently using.

#36 Added by Luminatrix 5 years ago [en] 

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Revvy
Luminatrix
Pardon me if I'm wrong but, from what I have heard, the Karas are now massively outnumbered, which is why some Kara guilds have alligned themselves with some Marauder guilds. Basing PvP on factions alone would put them at a severe disadvantage, surely?

I really like the idea of taking it a step further and allowing alliances to come into play. Faction politics can be really fun and exciting in general, as long as the people participating are reasonable enough.

What I don't like is the idea of being punished for helping someone from a different faction. I'm one of those dreaded carebears who just wants to make friends and help others. I have always found restrictions in other games that locked me out of creating a toon in the other faction (Aion) or didn't let me talk to players from different factions. Those limitations achieve exactly nothing besides being annoying and inconvenient.

The magic of Ryzom, Alliance still work if you are in team or league, or not tag ! :)

I didn't make what I meant clear. Here's what I meant: due to the sheer numbers of the Kami, a Kara would be statistically way more likely to be attacked by a hostile faction then a Kami. Unless we somehow magically cause the factions to be balanced in numbers, I think this would be quite annoying.

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Luminatrix

Explorer, storyteller, universalist, fighter for freedom and equality.

"Without contraries, there is no progression" - William Blake

#37 Added by Revvy 5 years ago [en] 

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Luminatrix
Revvy
Luminatrix
Pardon me if I'm wrong but, from what I have heard, the Karas are now massively outnumbered, which is why some Kara guilds have alligned themselves with some Marauder guilds. Basing PvP on factions alone would put them at a severe disadvantage, surely?

I really like the idea of taking it a step further and allowing alliances to come into play. Faction politics can be really fun and exciting in general, as long as the people participating are reasonable enough.

What I don't like is the idea of being punished for helping someone from a different faction. I'm one of those dreaded carebears who just wants to make friends and help others. I have always found restrictions in other games that locked me out of creating a toon in the other faction (Aion) or didn't let me talk to players from different factions. Those limitations achieve exactly nothing besides being annoying and inconvenient.

The magic of Ryzom, Alliance still work if you are in team or league, or not tag ! :)

I didn't make what I meant clear. Here's what I meant: due to the sheer numbers of the Kami, a Kara would be statistically way more likely to be attacked by a hostile faction then a Kami. Unless we somehow magically cause the factions to be balanced in numbers, I think this would be quite annoying.

Lumi, you are thinking in a case where Atys is full PvP which is not the case.
Actually just a few players are PvP tag, the whole topic apply only if you are PvP Tag.

A Kara will not be attacked by 100 Kamis, since only a few Kami (not to say 0 kami) are tag.

You got it? :)

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#38 Added by Heernis 5 years ago [en] 

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Namcha
As I wrote in "is pvp rp", I think to solve this, one should always pay consequences of its acts : lose/win fraction of fame each time you exchange, gain xp with, rez, an enemy/ally. (so a scope not only focused on pvp act)

something like 0.05 per act is enough to loose your 100%. But in detail, like pvp points calculation, the amout could be weighted by the gap between your fame and the other guy one's.

If the actual PVP-System should stay, there have to be some improvements. The idiom: "Try new ideas, but dont leave good traditions". The old system was quite good, but restricted. So its not the real freedom most players want here. But in freedom there are always consequences for their acts. I like the idea of namcha loosing fame by killing own people i.e. Kami kills a Kami. So the one who kill loose fame on kamis. But also gain fame by killing Mara or Karavan as Kami would work as well. Just 0,1 Fame or lower maybe would be enough.

Another idea would be loosing dappers. Lets say 1-10% randomly of the dappers you have in you bag or maybe also faction points, you earned yourself at about 1-10% of the points you have randomly.

If you are in team with someone and support the one, who kills other, will also get the half of the dappers and factionpoints.

Or lets say it is only PVP-Points. Then the stolen PVP-Points have to be lower than the getting PVP-Points i.e.

Or loot one item in bag randomly, which is not locked?

The idea could be tested in a PVP Event?

Freedom means also having consequences for the acts. When you kill others in the actual "factional PVP" it would have more meaning by earning or loosing something except getting PVP-Points. And to be clear, i am talking only about "Free-for-Tag" factional PVP.

But in the end, it can be also abused. The CoC is strict when it comes to PVP. No idea in that point, what could come.

There should be also something to protect very new players from this. So it should not possible to be tagged until you reach 25 fame negative or positive. This behavior in PVP Regions like lands of umbra or nexus shouldnt be implemented in my opinion. Maybe if the players are habituated with this gameplay. For treks there is allways the option not go through ToT.

Maybe this idea is worth to make a new thread.

Edited 6 times | Last edited by Heernis (5 years ago)

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#39 Added by Gidget 5 years ago [en] 

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Heernis
Another idea would be loosing dappers. Lets say 1-10% randomly of the dappers you have in you bag or maybe also faction points, you earned yourself at about 1-10% of the points you have randomly.
The 1-10% figure is obvious a placeholder, but I like the idea of certain actions costing more than fame enough that I feel this idea is worth leaving mostly as-is and discussing details. Since some folks wander around with tens/hundreds of millions of dappers and tens of thousands of points, a penalty as high as 10% would de a [i]de facto[/b] ban in actual practice as the affluent would be loathe enough at the prospect of losing more dappers in one fight than some homins see in a year to simply refrain. As I doubt that that is the intended effect of such a penalty, it may be best to scale it down about tenfold. Just food for thought :)

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#40 Added by Revvy 5 years ago [en] 

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Yeah not bad restriction like, but how you explain your lose of money RP wise ?
For fame its obvious, but money?

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#41 Added by Victoriacamper 5 years ago [en] 

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Fame is not so obvious, since you attack a homin and normally not the representative of a government or faction (unless its an npc), and they don't even know your name because they never ask you, so a random homin bandit gets negative fame (you know it as a player, your character doesn't).

Dappers seem legit.

You can loot everything else you kill, why not take some of the wealth from your victims?

Possibly too abstract for some but we will see.

Last edited by Victoriacamper (5 years ago)

#42 Added by Revvy 5 years ago [en] 

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Victoriacamper
Fame is not so obvious, since you attack a homin and normally not the representative of a government or faction (unless its an npc), and they don't even know your name because they never ask you, so a random homin bandit gets negative fame (you know it as a player, your character doesn't).
As stated by Namcha (Lorist) you may be seen on a battlefield, or lost fame with your friends watching / supporting you etc.
Its not only a matter of recognizing the face of an Homin.
Victoriacamper
Dappers seem legit.

You can loot everything else you kill, why not take some of the wealth from your victims?

Possibly too abstract for some but we will see.

This is a good idea yes legit, but it implies we will all be thief.

Which may not be good for everyone.

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#43 Added by Victoriacamper 5 years ago [en] 

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I don't see it as tief, rather as trophy for your kill.

[deleted]


Nevermind. Lets stay on dappers.

Also wanted to say, losing points doesn't make much senses to me, since its such an abstract concept, not something one can claim of you?

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Victoriacamper (5 years ago)

#44 Added by Victoriacamper 5 years ago [en] 

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Revvy
As stated by Namcha (Lorist) you may be seen on a battlefield, or lost fame with your friends watching / supporting you etc. Its not only a matter of recognizing the face of an Homin

Applies for OPs and large scale battles but what about 1v1 and 2v2 situations when theres usually noone else around?

Last edited by Victoriacamper (5 years ago)

#45 Added by Revvy 5 years ago [en] 

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Victoriacamper
Also wanted to say, losing points doesn't make much senses to me, since its such an abstract concept, not something one can claim of you?

Yes i agree, also NPC should be lootable somehow, but still; that dappers idea may not be good for everyone as pointed out (Trophy / Thief etc).

But gameplay related, it could be good to have a reward and ofc a take down in case of bad action (which depends on the PoV).

In the actual Atys its interesting but not enough yes, lets say a marauder gain +10 fame in Tryker doing an action against marauder.. he just have to come at FH, click the NPC 20times and its done he's back to -100.

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