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#54 Added by Mithian 5 years ago [fr]

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@Asharan Peut-que que je me trompe, hein, mais.. Toutes les idées dans tes postes pour moi traduisent bien la vision des choses des Kamistes: La suprématie... Avec un système où tu es invulnérable à telle ou telle attaques.

Si tu veux faire une lvl de guilde, alors, tu passe les OPs en full GvG, par contre, sinon, ça n'a pas de sens puisque tu as la faction derrière.

( mon poste va être franglais, pour répondre à Gidget )

@Gidget You're right, lot of US/CA/ETC players aren't on for OP war most of the time, and i didn't see them qq. But, you must know that's quite a french things :joy:

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Mithian (5 years ago)

#55 Added by Azazor 5 years ago [fr]

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Même si je ne participe plus aux OP, je trouve la futur maj plutot pas mal. C'est un nouveau défi à relever comme le dit Zarden et au lieu d'avoir un gros tas de kami contre un gros tas de kara, ce qui est d'un ennuie mortel pour ma part, ça donnera des combats avec moins de joueurs mais donc plus stratégiques.

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fyros pure sève
akash i orak, talen i rechten!
élucubrations
biographie

#56 Added by Kyriann 5 years ago Multilingual

Multilingual | Français | [English]

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Ryzom Forge meeting report – November 19 2018

Refactoring of the OP (Ulukyn)

Ulukyn

We've made progress on the part about paying for the attacks. The goal is to allow as many guilds as possible to participate and have a better dynamic in OP.
We're thinking of setting a price in Guild Points.
Guilds will get a discount on the price of their first attacks every 2 weeks.
Discounts go up to 100% of the price of the attack, each guild will choose in which continent to apply the discounts and it’s amount. The total sum of discounts for each continent may not exceed 100%.

Q : So, everyone will "fight" to declare first when there will be discount?
R : No, each guild has the same discounts that it decides to apply in the continent or continents of it’s choice. However, only the first attacks are concerned with a reset every 15 days.

Q : How many Guild Points will it cost to attack?
R : Not determined yet.

Ulukyn answering to the many comments, criticisms and questions

I propose something even easier. I let you read the previous meetings on OP, understand the whole thing, think about it and ask questions on a page of the forum, so I can answer at the next meeting.

You are therefore all invited to ask your questions, criticize, propose or even approve on the post whose link follows: https://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/29200/0

Shooting weapons (Ulukyn)

Ulukyn

A tool has been put in place to add missing stats on ammunition and perform tests. It's moving fast and we think we're bringing a new interest to remote fire.
It's still in the test phase and giving figures would make no sense. Especially since it is necessary to balance both pve and pvp.
However, if you have an opinion, suggestions or remarks, you can use the forum in the same way. This could give us some leads on how to improve shooting weapons.

The guild islands (Ulukyn)

Ulukyn

Soon, islands will be accessible to the guilds. One in fact. You can choose from the 5 ecosystems and 5 different islands. It will be possible to set the stage (via the scenographic editor) but also buildings (which can offer services such as extensions of GH or other), creatures (not attackable) and pnj (which will also offer services).
In addition, it is possible that the island has an "open house" version available to all. There would be 2 different spawn points. One for the private version and one for the public version. Thus, you can make a part of the island, a presentation of your guild with a pnj that would give informations.

Q : Space storage?
R : Yes, we think about increasing space storage.

Q : On the guild Island, are we gonna get new building? Like Farm to make packers food or something? Or maybe do a breeding? ( With packers or Kizoar, or Gubanis, for example ) ? And new occ for it?
R : With Ark it is possible yes, it was possible to make a wheel of fortune 100% in Ark. So service buildings yes, they would be good little projects for Arkitects, because very often they would like to do things but don't know what to do.

Q : Will the Island be buildable and/or directed by all the members from the guild?
R : Good question. The easiest way would be to allow everyone to create a scene and let the chief and/or senior officers import scenes from other players. This will allow everyone to participate in the construction of the island. As for pnjs and creatures, there it will be the chief and/or senior officers only.

End of meeting

Thanks from the participants for the Anlor Winn event, the new wheel and new stuffs.

Last edited by Kyriann (5 years ago)

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Kyriann Ba'Zephy Rie
Ancienne Cheffe de la guilde Bai Nhori Drakani
Taliar
Mère de famille

#57 Added by Trilexis 5 years ago [de]

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Here you can mainly see the people who feel disadvantaged because they are so "few". Or as you read over and over again, how to increase the chances of small guilds with few (active) members is actually being thought about, or how to improve the chances of small factions.

To put it briefly, how to break the dominance of the Kamis.

What can the Kamis do for the situation? Is it our fault that apparently more people are still opting for the Kamis? This is like wanting to punish homeowners just because a lot of people have to live in rent.

More or less, these changes will punish the guilds that actively seek members. Or you get punished for becoming a kami.

I heard a lot of Karavan players were lost, after the merging of the servers, because a lot of Americans were Karavan and couldn't cope with the "multi-language huddle. No idea.
But the merging of the servers was a long time ago. There were enough Karavan guilds who had time to recruit members to stand up to the Kamis on an equal footing. So don't criticize the system, criticize yourself.
There is no mention here of the fact that certain people are weakening through internal quarrels. Ergo they do have fewer fighters again in the next attack and for that the Kamis are to be punished?
The Kamis are a unit, the others now form unnatural alliances with little substance.
The fact that there are excesses caused by over-motivated people, such as attacks at 3 o 'clock, in the morning of European time, is a problem for many people, because of work or study. But the Kamis have recognised the problem and are bringing people up to face the problem. Besides, it is hardly believed, many Marauders probably also have to go to work, or school in order not to endanger their real life. Just speaking for me, I don not have a problem with the right to attack in the middle of the (european) night.
Ok, so much to accusations of Kami dominance

If I read this correctly here, there are thoughts to expropriate the current outpost owners virtually by system and preferably small guilds can attack an outpost. In other words, large guilds can no longer attack, because there will always be any little ones who are preferred.
What is this? Do you want to spoil players who are actively involved in the game? Have you ever thought that large guilds have worked out this greatness? That the leaders and officers of these guilds are online virtually daily? That these guilds have been working on their reputations and standing for years?
Small guilds often consist of players who have just outgrown Silan and are starting a guild. They should be allowed to attack outposts in a preference?
I have nothing against changes in the OP combat system. 12 rounds instead of 24, no second phase, all right. When rotating OP material, however, everyone should be aware of what an OP is producing. And each guild owns the outpost should also have the opportunity to defend the outpost. Dispossession by system spounts players.
As I said, shorter OP fights, no Phase 2, good idea. But the opposite side should not forget that the same applies to the Kamis when they attack.

The idea I don't think is good is NPC tribes as OP holders. The game is made for human beings and not for NPCs.

What you should definitely work on:

I was mocked (in the roleplay section) for not fighting for the Blackburn outpost, which was attacked at 3am European time. It is pointless to defend an outpost with 3 people when the q50 NPCs fall over in a breeze.
The attackers "tactics”, as seen at the Windway outpost, practically carry out a suicide attack to kill the NPCs before being killed yourself is in terms of play, a joke. (This applies, of course, to both sides)
Respawn and the whole thing again. We wiped the Marauders there round by round and still lost enough rounds to make a phase 2 necessary.
That's not OK. How can it be that an attacker is wiped and still wins the round?

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Trilexis (5 years ago)

#58 Added by Trilexis 5 years ago [fr]

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Je m'excuse, Google traduction

Ici, vous pouvez surtout voir les gens qui se sentent désavantagés parce qu'ils sont si "few ". Ou comme vous le lisez maintes et maintes fois, la seule façon d'augmenter les chances de petites guildes avec peu de membres (actifs) est effectivement pensé, comment améliorer les chances de petites factions.
Pour le dire brièvement, comment briser la domination des Kamis.
Que peuvent faire les Kamis pour la situation? Est-ce notre faute si apparemment plus de gens optent toujours pour les Kamis? C'est comme vouloir punir les propriétaires d'une maison juste parce que beaucoup de personnes doivent vivre dans le loyer.
Plus ou moins, ces changements puniront les guildes qui cherchent activement des membres. Ou vous êtes puni pour devenir un kami.
J'ai entendu beaucoup de joueurs de caravane ont été perdus, après la fusion des serveurs, parce que beaucoup d'américains étaient caravane et ne pouvait pas faire face à la "multi-langue de rassemblement. Aucune idée.
Mais la fusion des serveurs a été il ya longtemps. Il y avait assez de guildes de caravanes qui avaient le temps de recruter des membres pour résister aux kamis sur un pied d'égalité. Alors ne crare pas le système, critiquez-vous.
Il n'est pas fait mention ici du fait que certaines personnes sont affaiblies par des querelles internes. Ergo ont-ils moins de combattants à nouveau dans la prochaine attaque et pour que les Kamis doivent être punis?
Les Kamis sont une unité, les autres forment maintenant des alliances non naturelles avec peu de substance.
Le fait qu'il y ait des excès causés par des personnes trop motivées, telles que des attaques à 3 heures, le matin du temps européen, est un problème pour beaucoup de gens, à cause du travail ou de l'étude. Mais les Kamis ont reconnu le problème et amènent les gens à faire face au problème. En outre, il est à peine cru, beaucoup de maraudeurs doivent probablement également aller au travail, ou à l'école afin de ne pas mettre en danger leur vraie vie. OK, tant à des accusations de domination kami.
Si je lis ceci correctement ici, il y a des pensées pour exproprier les propriétaires actuels d'avant-poste pratiquement par le système et de préférence les petites guildes peuvent attaquer un avant-poste. En d'autres termes, les grandes guildes ne peuvent plus attaquer, car il y aura toujours des petits qui sont préférés.
Qu'est-ce que c est? Voulez-vous gâter les joueurs qui sont activement impliqués dans le jeu? Avez-vous déjà pensé que les grandes guildes ont travaillé sur cette grandeur? Que les dirigeants et les officiers de ces guildes sont en ligne pratiquement tous les jours? Que ces guildes ont travaillé sur leur réputation et debout depuis des années?
Les petites guildes se composent souvent de joueurs qui ont juste envahi Silan et commencent une guilde. Ils devraient être autorisés à attaquer les avant-postes dans une préférence?
Je n'ai rien contre les changements dans le système de combat OP. 12 rounds au lieu de 24, pas de deuxième phase, d'accord.
En tournant le matériel d'OP, cependant, chacun devrait être conscient de ce qu'une OP produit. Et chaque guilde possède les avant-postes devraient également avoir la possibilité de défendre les avant-postes. Dépossession par les joueurs spounts système.
Comme je l'ai dit, les combats de chirurgie plus courte, pas de phase 2, bonne idée. Mais le côté opposé ne doit pas oublier que la même chose s'applique aux Kamis quand ils attaquent.
L'idée que je ne pense pas est bonne est les souches NPC comme les titulaires OP. Le jeu est fait pour les gens et non pour les PNJ
Mais sur quoi travailler devrait certainement être:
J'ai été raillé (dans la section de jeu de rôle) pour ne pas se battre sur l'avant-poste de Blackburn, qui a été attaqué à 3H du matin européen de nuit. Il est inutile de défendre un avant-poste avec 3 personnes si les PNJ de Q50 tombent dans une brise.
Les attaquants tactiques, comme on le voit à l'avant-poste Windway, pratiquement effectuer une attaque suicide pour tuer les PNJ avant d'être tué vous-même est, en termes de jeu, une plaisanterie. (Cela s'applique, bien sûr, aux deux côtés)
Respawn et tout le truc à nouveau. Nous avons pondéré le maraudeur là ronde par tour et encore perdu suffisamment de tours pour faire une phase 2 nécessaire.
Ça ne va pas. Comment se fait-il qu'un attaquant soit anéanti et qu'il gagne toujours la manche.

Last edited by Tiximei (5 years ago) | Reason: Fixed the language button

#59 Added by Sinvaders 5 years ago [de]

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Trilexis

That's not OK. How can it be that an attacker is wiped and still wins the round?

In the actual system, it is.
Why ? Because winning a round doesn't mean you are winning the battle against the players. You ONLY needs to defeat the PNJ waves one by one. There is NO needs to even fights the others players (just heal yourself watch the PNJ and go). Yes this is making the fight for small OPs ridiculous.

#60 Added by Trilexis 5 years ago [en]

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Sinvaders :) I understand the system of OP war. I know killing the NPC is the goal.
But killing the NPC and being wiped yourself and still win is stupid.

If you kill the NPCs and stay alive, that's ok . :)

#61 Added by Laoviel 5 years ago [en]

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More or less, these changes will punish the guilds that actively seek members. Or you get punished for becoming a kami.

Not exactly. Or rather, you do see the immediate effect correctly, but not the long-term effect. Think of it like Robin Hood: is it the same robbing a landlord, or a peasant?

Most economic systems where competition is scarce tend to evolve toward a monopoly. The dominant party not only squashes competition, but it can also afford to buy out fledgling businesses that pose a threat. It goes as far as to create a feedback loop, if a tipping point is reached. This is the exact mechanism we have seen in Ryzom for the past 5 years at least (or more, if you count pre-merger where kara was a dominant party, through exactly the same mechanics).

The issue with OPs as they stand now, is that resource allocation favors a big, monolithic side badly. At supernodes a small and dedicated team may do a suicide mission and still dig some materials; I've witnessed a party of 10 marauders outsmarting a group at least twice its size, and not only once. At OPs, this is literally impossible, even if a group somehow wins phase 1: they get wiped in phase 2.

The way I see this change, it would encourage pruning away the deadwood from all parties in the game. Of course the larger faction is bound to have more rot (e.g. dead guilds owning OPs, or 1-man guilds owning q250 ones); therefore the change will be perceived to affect them more "unjustly". But overall, and once the dust settles, I believe the real effect is an invigoration of a system where people actually have to fight for the things they own.

Consider that kami started its winning wave on the back of the Asylum guild, starting the feedback loop. Consider that the monopoly of kamis was almost broken through the efforts of a small but very resolute guild, Syndicate (except they kept losing phase 2, and they got burned out after a while)

Even with the new system, it will be always possible to build a good guild and sweep through Atys in the blink of an eye. A faction is always going to be useful, to have your back. What changes is that, at the first sign of weakness, the Robin Hoods of the world will attack and win back some of your resources.

As it should be.

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My home is always sweet Yrkanis..

#62 Added by Trilexis 5 years ago [de]

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Now it is certainly not new to you that Robin Hood is a mythical figure whose existence is not proven. The robber bands and pirate groups I know from my country were at times even popular and supported by parts of the population but they all ended at the executioner

Companies like Microsoft / Google etc. certainly cause problems and sometimes they also get a penalty, but no one should do artificial trimmings from the outside to achieve a shift in market share.

I witnessed the dominance of the Karavan and now it's the Kamis.

Comparing Supernodes to OP Fight is not a good example, I think.

Yes, there is currently at least one almost inactive guild owning an Outpost. This guild had 2 outposts and one of them was captured in a sneak attack by Maras and no Kami knew about it when it happened. So there are already ways to take over the outposts of inactive guilds. Of course a handover within the faction is another possibility.

The current system does not put 1 woman guilds at a disadvantage. No staff are required to own an outpost. Yes maybe something to be changed . But I believe the number of members in a guild should not be the criterion, but the number of active members in a guild. (automatic API system?)
I know a guild that has over 230 members in its list because it never kicks. Of these, however, 220 are certainly inactive, or even more. As long as a 1-man guild is supported by the guilds associated by religion, there is nothing to blame for the current state of affairs.

And if you're talking about economies here. Before discussing extreme changes to break Kami dominance here, you should introduce an economic system in which the dapper really means something. Or this silly way, New Horizon agents send us on partly unsuccessful journeys to get rid of the products.

And as you yourself have so rightly noticed, the guild Syndicate caused the Kami dominance to falter. So it's not impossible.

But it is not okay now to bring about changes to the status quo with artificial measures of external action. As I noted in my post, the problem is not because of the grown power of the Kamis, but because of the obvious inability of the Karavan guilds to organize and expand.

Yesterday I received the notice that one of the Karavan guilds on Atys, has 20 masters in their ranks. Crafting master, or magic and melee master? Well, I don't remember seeing more than five or six members on the battlefields from this guild. Often rather less so.

I cannot claim that the Kami Guilds can regularly lead all their members into battle, but there are almost always all the guilds involved, with some of their members . With the Karavan, this fluctuates a lot.

I like to say it again. It is a homemade problem of Karavan guilds that they cannot face the Kami guilds on an equal footing. It is then, of course, not surprising that at times, one hand extended to the greeting and the other with the knife behind the back, they turn to Marauder, who are supposed to turn the tide. (Not to mention these mercenary rangers)

As I said, I welcome changes, such as shortening fight times. But I warn against excessive measures that one side prefers. This could be one more reason that could cause some paying players to leave the game.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Trilexis (5 years ago)

#63 Added by Sinvaders 5 years ago [fr]

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Trixelis, you are forgetting one important thing. Outpost are mean to be guild owned and guild gameplay not faction ( because of the actual system this is not the case right now ).

About "excessive measures that one side prefers" (quoting you here), to me it sounds more like the kamis side doesn't want any change cause the actual system is in their favor.

Yes, it's possible to do sneak attack to get OP owned by ghost guild, but those guild should not be able to get one OP anyway... so anything fixing/preventing this situation is welcome (automatic attack my NPC is a good solution to it).

The removal of phase 2 is a very good thing (why? simply because this phase allow people to not come at phase 1 and still keep their op).
Reducing the attacks cost + randomness of rewards + NPC attacks will help the owners rotation (yes, it will cost less to attack so their will be more attacks ... simple as that).

I have good hopes that after the ops refactoring, the RT will think about making them attractive. (and right now the OPs are useless and people are rage-quitting the game or winning when loosing one)

Last edited by Sinvaders (5 years ago)

#64 Added by Savisi 5 years ago [en]

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We should think about some basic atys rules i guess.

1. Do something, and you'll get something.
2. Do something better, and you'll get something better.
3. Be the best, and you'll get the best.
4. Be what you want to be.

In order of playing in a sandbox, i can't understand complainings, that manifests a special right of "having something". Everyone is able to have "something". Maybe this causes jealous thoughts by those, that "want something special" with no efforts.

Having "something better" is linked to some efforts, but efforts are'nt a "must have" for everyone.

So everyone in this discussion, that will say "the sand in our sandbox does'nt act in a natural way" while the thought behind is "I'd like to have a special right on this sand." is wrong.

In my opinion the changes in OP wars will cause a more natural way of conflict. With simple rules. And fair for those that will choose the way of "conflict". Comparing to the actual rules, with the new OP system everyone could have "something better", but not a special right, to "have something better".

And so, if we think about making "something" valuable, this is linked with the maximum efforts, to get "something". And not linked with an economy that can generate "any amount of something".

#65 Added by Trilexis 5 years ago [de]

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Sinvaders, you are forgetting one important thing. There is a reason why we have factions. In times of cold war the NATO was supposed to defend Germany,( or Danmark/Norway, whatever ) and not just the national armys.

Once more again for you. It is not the system that favors us, it is the homemade weakness of Karavan. If they would be strong enough to hold 50% of the Outposts, nobody would discuss changes.

An inavtive guild of course is not able to win an outpost. An
inactive Guild with outpost right now will lose it over time, by attack or handover.

No after reading the statement of another player at another topic, Im not that sure anymore that removing of Phase 2 is a good idea, because of timezone. People should have the chance to hold an outpost, when they are awake/not at work

#66 Added by Laoviel 5 years ago [en]

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Trilexis -- I played a kami character before this one. I am well aware of the history of the faction post-merger, its internal politics and all.

Regarding kami/kara tactics: I agree to a certain extent that kami had (slightly) better leadership. But then again, marauders had their own excellent leaders post-merge, at some point requiring kami+kara alliances against them. So your explanation, while highlighting a part of the issue on one side, conveniently forgets that kami did not end up rich just because its enemies were stupid.

The plain truth is that current OP mechanics discourage frequent attacks. They're a huge time sink and a money sink. More importantly, they favor player headcount heavily, wasting incredible amounts of man-hours. The end result is what we know it: a number of bitter months where the factions struggle, followed by the emergence of a winner. And then? A plateau. The news "there's a war coming" varies from "oh gods, not again" (when they're frequent) to "yay, something happening" (when no war was fought in months). This is especially true for lower-level homins, assigned to heal duty and who don't care much for the outpost materials yet: for most that I talked to, wars were like a chore, rather than a fun/useful thing they wanted to do.

The changes proposed here make it harder for one faction to plateau. If you remove the time-sink element of wars, it makes them more palatable, even if frequency increases. What would take four hours of your life, now takes one. Removing of the defense round makes it actually important to show up to a defense.

I hear you regarding the potentially bad side effects, but again -- think over a longer timeline. People grumble at any change. To my mind, the only real risk to to shift the game meta too much towards a PVP approach. If wars do become too frequent, then some old-timers are going to feel that the game is not the right one for them. But if the balance is right, then the only effect is that OPs are revitalized, with both old and *new* players joining the wars.

(oh, and regarding guards: I also hear you. I heavily disliked the series of attacks done by The Outsiders on q50 outposts, for example. But that issue can be fixed separately, by buffing guards as appropriate. One shouldn't avoid the OP rework just because it illustrates further issues downstream)

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My home is always sweet Yrkanis..

#67 Added by Siela 5 years ago [en]

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Trilexis

Yesterday I received the notice that one of the Karavan guilds on Atys, has 20 masters in their ranks. Crafting master, or magic and melee master? Well, I don't remember seeing more than five or six members on the battlefields from this guild. Often rather less so.

I cannot claim that the Kami Guilds can regularly lead all their members into battle, but there are almost always all the guilds involved, with some of their members . With the Karavan, this fluctuates a lot.

Trilexis

No after reading the statement of another player at another topic, Im not that sure anymore that removing of Phase 2 is a good idea, because of timezone. People should have the chance to hold an outpost, when they are awake/not at work.

People should also have a chance to get Outposts when they are awake/not at work, which might also be one of the main causes why you see so few players of certain guilds: Yeah sure they can attack first round at their time, but second phase will be when they are at work or sleeping, so no sense in even trying to anymore.

I think the shift by removing Phase 2 won't be in favor of any timezone. But i think that it will be a shift of always being able to defend an outpost, no matter timezone, to always being able to take an outpost, no matter timezone. This does favor none of the groups, it just makes the attacks more probable to be won. and i don't think that's a bad thing, since the goal is to make OPs more dynamic, and making more attacks likely to win will do that.

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#68 Added by Tamarea 5 years ago Multilingual

Multilingual | [English] | Français

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Ryzom Forge meeting (December 3rd, 2018)

Date: monday, December 3rd, 20:30 UTC (21:30 CET)

Meeting place: Atys, on Ryzomforge channel (/channel ryzomforge), or on chat. ryzom. com (channel #ryzomforge) for players who have already opened the channel ingame.

Duration: 1.5 hour

Participants: all Ryzom players wishing to join.
Nature: informative, questions & answers and feedback meeting.
Topic: Added, in test and ready to be tested projects.

Agenda
Status of projects (by Ulukyn):
OP refactoring
Guild Islands
Jena Year 2601 Patch

Last edited by Tamarea (5 years ago)

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Tamarea
Ryzom Team Manager
(FR / EN / ES)
tamarea@ryzom.com

Last visit Wednesday, 24 April 16:51:59 UTC

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