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#106 [en] 

Preface: I know that there are lots of good hearted volunteers involved. Please do not take this personally. I love all of you who have good intentions.

RE: Not enough testers. Not the full picture:


Guys... if ANYONE had told us that new horizons was 100% going to be removed (let's be honest... that's what it is)

NO ONE would be jumping up and down for that , save the most masochistic "give it to me harder, oh yeah" group. I don't need to name names here.

I understand this argument about testing, but there was no transparency.
We just need some more conversation.

If someone told me 2-4 days, plus no buff, on craft misisons... guys.. I could caclulate for you the outrage here. It's obvious that people who are doing 3/4 lands + even tribes can still be stuck with tons of extra mats, if the timer is increased by that much.

Telling me to go do something else is just dictatorship.

The point is, theoertical discussions can bear lots of fruit, not just actual testing. In fact, depending on WHO your testers are, they may think this is JUST FINE (no sap crytals, punitive florist nerf, useless dappers on nh, no free nh transport for neutral +50s, huge buffs to combat missions and no buff to crafting missions, "just go dig" for sap crystals)

It's not just about how many testers. It's about the diversity of testers, and people who aren't pushing a "make it harder, I love it" agenda.

There are specific posts by someone who literally said (paraphrasing):
Sucks for you, that you didn't see this nerf coming. Haha , I made 30 alts, farmed the events, farmed crystals, and now I have stuff, and you don't . Haha, now you have to suffer, and I don't. But OH I really support this change, it's a necessary change, people had too many dappers and crystal anyway (nevermind that I'm laughing at you because I "planned" for this)

With people like this in the community, I'm not sure testers can even be trusted.

-Theoretical discussion is effective.
-Make your changes MORE transparent.
-Don't tell me I need to join the team or email Tamarea to get involved


The patch notes were written in a way, that I feel, hid the reality that this was a blatent nerf. I don't have to defend my statement. It's plain to see. And it needs to stop.

PS. Since the effects of the patch have hit so much pushback, a rush fix-patch would have been advisable, or even a rollback on the patch (or parts of the patch) Some things should be rushed, some should not.

I'm just playing my part. I don't mean to be as abbrasive as I sound. It's just worth saying. Thanks. I have suggested my 2 cents on how to help fix this. More testers, FINE. More theoertical discussion, more transparency, YES.

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#107 [en] 

Testers have no power to change anything directly. We can object and point out what we think is wrong with a specific change, however the goal of testing is to make sure it works as expected by rules we do not make. We are not making decisions and we are unable to delay or stop the release.

To be specific about New Horizons 2.0: We did warn that the change will not make players happy and suggested at least to wait for planned mission changes. The matter of mission adjustment was not known to the Testing team by that time. The answer was it will be release separately, with mission changes following shortly after JY 2603 patch.

I am not sure who you should rather address your text, maybe Level Design team?

#108 [en] 

Moniq
Testers have no power to change anything directly. We can object and point out what we think is wrong with a specific change, however the goal of testing is to make sure it works as expected by rules we do not make. We are not making decisions and we are unable to delay or stop the release.

To be specific about New Horizons 2.0: We did warn that the change will not make players happy and suggested at least to wait for planned mission changes. The matter of mission adjustment was not known to the Testing team by that time. The answer was it will be release separately, with mission changes following shortly after JY 2603 patch.

I am not sure who you should rather address your text, maybe Level Design team?

Thank you for giving your feedback to wait on planned mission changes.

I aimed my feedback at the decision makers who chose to (apparently) disregard smart feedback from testers. In this case I owe some apology to testers ;)

I understand testers are bound by NDA, they cannot/should not share these things before the release. 

My contention was aimed, squarely, at the people who are not sharing the information transparently, and pushing skewed patch notes (not the testers)

Testing is not enough, transparency is key. Hiding information is in bad faith. Not soliciting enough open feedback is a poor decision. So is waiting on the backlash.

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#109 [en] 

I am not under NDA, however I try to avoid spoiling any changes before it was announced. I will also not quote nor post any internal documents.

And yes, you are right, the transparency is one of the biggest remaining problems I see. Except some long time team members I know a bit, new nicknames keep comming and leaving and I barely know who is who and what is he/she responsible for. There are teams that require NDA thus I have no chance to know who is a member or what they really do.

#110 [en] 

Loved
In fact, depending on WHO your testers are, they may think this is JUST FINE (no sap crytals, punitive florist nerf, useless dappers on nh, no free nh transport for neutral +50s, huge buffs to combat missions and no buff to crafting missions, "just go dig" for sap crystals)

It's not just about how many testers. It's about the diversity of testers, and people who aren't pushing a "make it harder, I love it" agenda.

Yeah, I think the testing team needs more folks who work hard enough IRL that they aren't up for running around for 3-4 hours a night (longer than they may have in a single session) to do what they used to in 30 minutes to balance out the folks who think TPs should be removed because "RPGs are about travel". (Whose bright idea was it to put the relevant Tryker NPCs so much further from the capitol than other regions?) Maybe a few more who think effort should be rewarded more than alignment, that fame and factions are merely part of the game instead of it's main focus, and that all factions should be balanced. (How is paying Neutral/Ranger only 40% of what a nationalist earns for the same task without offering a chance to earn equal rewards elsewhere not favoritism anyways?) It might also help if there were more meetings around 02-03 UTC or on Sundays so we could get some alternative perspective into a realtime conversation, but I'm not sure that's logistically feasible.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#111 [en] 

Testing needs some requirements, to compare the release candidate to.

Now of course with game testing, requirements could be a vague/generic "is this change fun", which is completely subjective. Which is the crux of the issue, because you *can* refine such requirements, and restate them like:
  • Is X nerf too strong?
  • Does this affect many people's playstyle?
  • Does this affect daily activities for many players?
  • If the backlash is strong, do we have a plan? Do we rollback?
  • Are the prepared PR statements sufficiently satisfying and detailed? (yes, PR releases can be a testing artifact, in a sense)

So this was either a problem of insufficient input to the testing team, or their feedback was simply not taken into consideration, because someone really wanted to push out the changes. At this point the teams seem to be in damage-control mode, and we are still awaiting more rebalancing patches...

Last edited by Laoviel (4 months ago)

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Laoviel, officer of Rift Walkers

#112 [en] 

@Moniq: Can you tell us how many testers did you see on pads in the last 2 months please?

Let's see how much the "community" is involved.

Last edited by Revvy (4 months ago)

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#113 [en] 

Revvy
@Moniq: Can you tell us how many testers did you see on pads in the last 2 months please?

Let's see how much the "community" is involved.

That depends on a test (and the number will tell you nothing about test quality). I am also too lazy to search how long and when tests started so I give you numbers for 3 groups of tests:

Last 6 finished: average 4.3 testers (many miss mac os testing)
Final 4 ongoing tests (Gingo server): average 1.8 testers (all miss mac os testing)
More or less recent 5 minor fixes on Atys (must be tested on Atys): 0.6/1.0 testers (just me and I have no resources to do those two remaining tests as much as I would like so I consider my testing to be not completed in two cases)

I did not include Kitin invasions testing (which runs for several months and was tested with bigger groups, thus I have no specific names - only 2 reports but it was about 10 testers at least during all the testing).

Last edited by Moniq (4 months ago)

#114 [en] 

Laoviel
  • Is X nerf too strong?
  • Does this affect many people's playstyle?
  • Does this affect daily activities for many players?
  • If the backlash is strong, do we have a plan? Do we rollback?
  • Are the prepared PR statements sufficiently satisfying and detailed? (yes, PR releases can be a testing artifact, in a sense)

To me, those points should be studied before starting the development of the features... in a timeline ... earlier than testing.

#115 [en] 

Sinvaders
To me, those points should be studied before starting the development of the features... in a timeline ... earlier than testing.

Totally agreed! Of course, it's one of those things best done with multiple (preferably diverse) views so as to mitigate/avoid bias-induced blind spots. But yes, some discussion before spending time coding and debugging would save a lot of hassles.

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Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#116 Multilingual 

Multilingual | [English] | Français

Ryzom Forge meeting report - 24.06.2019

General Questions:

Q: Wouldn't it be possible that mektoubes use Teleporters?

A: Possible yes, but desirable? No but you can make a post on "Ideas for Ryzom".

Luminatrix
I don't know about meks teleporting, but a service from the stables to transport meks to another stable in the same region for a fee would be interesting.

Q: Would it eventually be possible for NH to other lands for the mektoub? or if not that, then, say, treks to get them there or such like? perhaps to the captial city only.

A: The best part of ryzom is discovering, treks... This, can avoid this, not sure it's a good idea 

Xiom
That could be a good Idea, teleport from capital to capital, its frustrating to lose one's materials, time and money when a mektoub dies

Q: in what point could this issue land I do not know, the game is depopulating at high speed, all its "novelty" makes it an attractive the "present" but is there an advertising campaign or other to attract the world?
A: There is a real marketing/advertising approach currently underway, we will also have to rebalance the game to keep the new players

 

1. Revaluation of the game's missions to expand your fun: link

Azileth
Not practicing missions very often... or not at all, they have the advantage of "framing" the presence in play of "old" people breaking habits, can frustrate... Anyway, in my opinion, regarding missions, they become interesting when a player is high level, if not.. there is little
A: No, the missions are useful at all levels, they are a source of fame and soon for some, UT, so they are not reserved for the "old" ones.  No, the missions are useful at all levels, they are a source of fame and soon for some, UT, so they are not reserved for the "old" ones.

Q: A reduction of dapper rewards for NH/Occ OK! But a reward for fidelity to occ wouldnt be bad
A: Our reflection on missions ist vast. Fidelity is one of the criteria to be introducet, its being studied

Q: the dappers reward for NH gift giving has already been reduced by a third, reducing that yet more is i suppose meant: but the occupation loyalty i feel should at least still allow for the two lower grades to be used for NH gift giving. On the other hand: the old way was that higher grades of occu gave higher rewards... a good idea to return to that i think.
A: Yes, but all the other missions have seen the increase in the number of dappers, which allows us to diversify the sources. The purpose of these changes and to allow other missions to have interest, the problem of trade donations to the NH is that players did not have to move up the ranks of the trade to have the dappers and reputations.
Luminatrix
Perhaps players would also be more motivated to do occupations if the products were more useful. There is very little reason to go beyond grade 1 in most.  And a lot of occupations are just not worth doing at all.
Sorum
players are missing the extended occupations
A: Yes Sorum, we aware of that, but the extended occupations need a bit coding before back on atys, please be patient :). Basics occupations product may have a use in the extended occupations :)

Azileth
For my part i haven't done missions as i said. For the reason that they're are of an atrocious complexity (occ i mean) and don't really motivate you to start over... water carrier for example, run in circles 3h, super!
A:  AH, okay..... No, some occupations are quite simple, such as water carrier for cartographers. What would a simple occupation be without its boring side?

2. Daily Missions

Tykus
Basic Principle:
Every day, you have the opportunity to carry out seven missions in the order of your choice, randomly selected from all the "Task" missions and/or "Occupation product donation" missions.

A filtering option allows you to restrict the select-able missions according to the fames that you do not want to lower or raise.

You also have the option of completing only certain types of missions, but de-selecting missions may have an impact on your final gain.

You can abandon a mission at any time if you do not want to do it or do it later. However, this one is not replaced by another and will remain in the list of missions proposed for today.

[p]For the moment, Prime Roots missions are not available (who said "fiuuu!"?)

Q: Missions have to be done within 24h or so in a day from 8am to 8am the next day for example?
A:Yes it's the server time that will be the reference a priori, but you'll have some every days: )[/p]

Q: Will there be daily missions for marauders too?  and 2. Are these random, already existing missions? or new ones made specifically for daily sets?
A: Yes, its intended :) ...  these are existing missions, but you will be able to filter the missions that will be proposed to you, this includes the occs too :)

Tykus
Note Selecting only one type of mission will reduce the reward.
Four filtering options are available:

- Filtering of the area in which to perform each type of mission:

Select here the level of the area (50 --> 250) in which you want to perform each type of mission (craft, forage, combat, exploration). If you choose the "None" option, then no mission of this kind wil be offered to you

- Filtering of fame that should not decrease:

Here, you have the option to apply a filter to remove from the list those missions that would cause you to lose some of your fame.
Thus, a Ranger should check all the boxes in the "Fame that you do not want to decrease" line.


- Filtering of fame that should not increase:

Here, you have an option to apply  filter to remove from the list those missions that would cause you or win some fame.
Thus, a Marauder should check all the boxes in the "Fame that you do not want to increase" line.


- Filtering of occupations:
Filter here which occupations can be offered to you. If you choose all of them, a maximum of four occupation missions can be randomly selected. Choosing all occupations considerably increases the reward

Note: Occupation missions do not require that you have the occupation active but only occupation products to give, including those obtained by exchange or purchase.
Tykus
A screen of the interface

3. New Marauder Map

Tykus

The graphics for the maps are done. We are currently adding vegetation in all new zone.

First, the entire marauding camp will be moved to a large area of the new map but not to the city, as the area that will host it will first have to be cleaned by the marauding PJs. Only then will the marauding NPCs reach their final location in the city area...
Moniq

Q: When is the new map planned to be added on Atys?
A: I don't know yet but I hope soon :)

Q: Why are there so many things for marauders? Its something i don't understand..
A:  So, I wouldn't say "so many things", the marauding gameplay was introduced a while ago, we have to finish it cleanly, it's still incomplete, hence the regular additions for this faction.
Luminatrix
I think marauders are getting many things because we don't have a good 40% of the features other factions do yet...

Q: which level will the mobs have on this new island ?
A: I think it will be the same level as nexus

Q: Will this new Island be a PvP area like nexus?
A:  I think so yes, nothing is fixed yet, but make sense :)
Azileth
I do not really know how the marauding faction works, but the only thing I see are the teleporters ... which are super well placed ..
Alee: Precisely, thats the reason we're getting content, because all we have as a faction is our teleports ;)[/quote]

[quote=Aleeskandaro] As you know, there were some issues inside marauder faction a while ago. Issues around abuse of PvP tag and CoC misinterpretation.  As such, if new area will be 100% PvP (Which would be nice), i would kindly request the PvP section of CoC be clarified and 100% explicit about:  Definition of Chain-kill and whether Chain Kill is permitted or not, with the corresponding consequences... it needs to be explicit in the CoC [/quote]

A:  chainkill, never be permited... even on marauders... I will, Alees :)

Tykus
CoC is the general rules, but it also uses logic, assuming its tag, yes, but getting killed in a loop just for revenge doesn't make sense (even if the gameplay allows it). But we will try to clarify yes :)
Spieko
I as a marauder really dont like our city to be a pvp zone, because there is gonna be so much abuse by certain people
Luminatrix
I agree with Spieko, I would also prefer our city not to be a PvP zone. None of the other capitals are, either. It makes no sense.

4. Recruitment

Tykus

Translation team recruits volunteers!
To translate / proofread into Spanish
To translate / proofread into Russian
To translate / proofread into German


Support team recruits volunteers!
From North America
From South America (speaking Spanish and English)
From Australia timezone
From Spain

Event team recruits volunteers!
From North America
From South America (speaking Spanish and English)
From Australia timezone
From Spain

In particular, we need American animators in order to be able to play roleplay events in US time slots.

If you are interested please send a mail to tamarea@ryzom.com

As Moniq use to say: we need testers too, in this case just send a Dm to tamarea on rocket: https://chat.ryzom.com/direct/Tamarea

Edited 10 times | Last edited by Bisugott (4 months ago)

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High Officer of:






Aleeskandaro(Atys)

#117 [fr] 

You posted a refernce link to cloud.ryzom.com ; however I can't log into it. Is this something that players can look at or is it developers only?

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Yaandor | Cult of Dgambi | He who walks alone
Atys is a stern and determined teacher; willing to repeat the same lesson as often as necessary.

#118 [en] 

((@Aleeskandaro please fix tags in the post, also it is missing FR version))

Last edited by Moniq (4 months ago)

#119 [fr] 

Yaandor
You posted a refernce link to cloud.ryzom.com ; however I can't log into it. Is this something that players can look at or is it developers only?

And now the link is apparently gone from the post. So much for my question I guess...

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Yaandor | Cult of Dgambi | He who walks alone
Atys is a stern and determined teacher; willing to repeat the same lesson as often as necessary.

#120 [fr] 

Cloud.ryzom.com is our cloud (make sense xD) for projects like the Marauder City and the link are the Etherpad document with the todo list about it.
Just that :)

About Marauder zone, it's a project we will finish, and a good try to create a new complete zone.
So, it's for marauder but with goal to be able to add content for all players in a future.

I hope have time this summer to add more HOWTO videos about how create a map and other stuff for who want see more about our work ;)
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