#1 [en] 

This was initially a reply to this topic:

One of the tasks of a competent products manager is to use conflict as a source of innovation to address consumer needs and problems.

Case in point:
Sinvader and Jahuu

Both are in fact correct in that, they have the right to their personal opinions and positions on the matter of "how to RP correctly"

Sin is as stated by someone else, more of a "fanatic" type RP'er (which is totally fine, you are deep in your roots here in your role, you don't want people fraternizing with the "enemy")

Jahuu on the other hand is a lot more free about who he associates with and, in the real world these are both legitimate types of people.

Consider how Sinvader feels. A "real" marauder or kami or kara who plays hardcore to their beliefs, shuns someone who regularly teams with, (etc) the "enemy" and, still gains all the benefits of the faction (in gameplay terms)

Now in personal terms, perhaps some Kara guilds could say "Loved isn't a real kara, don't give him mats" and you know what, I would be TOTALLY fine with this. This is legitimate RP. As long as no one aggro drags on me, and breaks rules, insulting me personally pretending to be RP'ing

(Which, I have checked with Jahuu and Sin's people have not broken any rules, which I advised, they have the right to their opinion and way of conduct)

So lets look at the two positions:

Sin says, well, lets force the issue, lets put gameplay restrictions imposed on everyone, that will limit this kind of "not real RP"

Jahuu says no, lets leave it open.

Both of them are in fact, giving positions that are not optimal.
I will elaborate: If player X can play super casually and benefit from all the gameplay mechanics of a 100 fame Kara but still trades mats with anyone and is totally known to do it , do they REALLY deserve all the benefits? Objectively, I'd say no.

However, taking away benefits, or, forcing restrictions is also not a good idea. So, what do we do?

Proposed idea for consideration to bridge the gap between RP/PVP hardcore and light players:

1) don't remove anything
2) instead ADD something for hardcore players
(example, you can manually choose, of your own free will, to tag yourself as a hardcore factionist (making up words here) and it means, there are gameplay mechanics that get turned on, that prevent you from teaming with someone else outside faction, prevent you from trading with them, etc

You can really go far with this idea if the engine can do it later on. For example, for X hours in team with opposing faction, the kami agents or karavan agents or marauder agents, will "know" (scout) you and your fame will drop

Your "advanced fame" perks can be removed (something that is not in the game yet for example)

So perhaps, I have 100 kara fame, I choose to turn on hardcore mode, I still choose to team with someone who I want to help, after 2 hours my fame starts to decrease. But I'm totally okay with this because for personal reasons, I wanted to help this person.

You can go even further, and hide names and faction info completely, so let's say, you and I are 100 fame kami/kara

I can't see your name at all or any info about you, not even your guild. I happen to be killing something and you happen by to heal me. We don't know each other, names, guild, faction, but we speak a little, and we team.

Is there really a penalty that should automatically apply to these two people? Perhaps when we spend some time together, the game reveals to us automatically "signs that they are kara, or kami" and I can somehow determine (without you telling me) that you are that faction (or you can overtly choose to tell me, with some in game mechanic)

So lets look at an outpost battle.
Lets say I'm Kami but I really want to help a Kara in an outpost battle for personal reasons, perhaps this person trekked me 2 years ago, or saved my life, or offered me advice.

I show up at the outpost with a helmet on, you cannot see my face, you do not know who I am, you can't really report me to the Kami's for betrayal. But, suppose someone else knows me, (I have either manually chosen to use gameplay mechanics to reveal myself, or they have been around me long enough to know, or some other person told them, etc)

They can now right click on me and tag me as a someone who is doing something wrong in the eyes of the Kami, my fame takes a hit, it affects something else of mine.

I'm totally fine with this, or maybe I'm not. Maybe I help for 10 minutes and leave, this is the "most I can do, for my old friend"

What I'm proposing is a way to really use the fame system to some nice effect, with benefit, risk, reward, for all, not some.

Let's say you have known me a very long time, we know everything about each other, you have information on me, you could pass this on to your entire faction. Loved is a Kara follower, if your level of "knowledge of me" is, say, 90-100%, then you can inform anyone you "know" 50% or more, of this (even if they have not seen me before, they trust your word)

This makes spy play very interesting.

Now take it even further, let's say you and I have a secret chat channel with a password ,we use this to communicate. Perhaps, someone can "discover" us, perhaps messages can leak, perhaps it will affect our fame, or knowledge in some way.

I think this is an excellent way to think about things, give more, not take away. Respect the person who stalwartly roleplays a Marauder, reward them something. Penalise (to limits) someone who violates this but make it somewhat optional.

(Or, added rewards are only in hardcore mode, you can't lock or unlock them by playing laid back)

It would give a Kami and Kara love story some fun to it, they fight on opposite times at times, they meet in secret, people find out, people choose to cover it up too. Maybe I can take a personal hit to my Kara fame by ignoring the fact that someone I know is teaming with someone who is not Kara, and is in my team.

Sorry to run on so long but I'm writing as the ideas come, this is largely unscripted and unstructured. It would give some more use to helmets too, hide your face. Height, that person CANT POSSIBLY be a tryker. If they're a tryker they are less likely to be a Kami. Do I report them on suspicion alone? If I report them and I'm wrong, my faction will repute me less.

I hope you can consider my ideas and discuss.
I decide to make a new post, not to sidetrack the old one.

I'm going to flesh this out with more structure later.


#2 [en] 

My two dappers worth;

Giving perks to the hardcore is no different than punishing the non-hardcore. Yet you don't mention any way that a tolerant, open-minded, sociable homin in a guild with any sort of alignment can play without being punished. That omission is pretty large, yet the fact that faction membership is a binary proposition while human/homin behavior is far from binary makes any sort of mechanics-based solution problematic. Unless/until I see an idea that doesn't penalize me for belonging to a Matis/Kara guild yet having an almost-Ranger-like tolerance of all factions, I'm going to fully support maintaining the current status quo. No matter how much we all want change, I feel that bad change is worse than no change at all. Yet every idea I've heard so far is a change that basically says that I've been doing it wrong for all these years; that I made a mistake joining a guild that has an alignment and will be penalized unless I leave my friends of many years.

There is also the matter of opening the doors for new forms of trolling and griefing. If you don't see the potential abuses in "They can now right click on me and tag me as a someone who is doing something wrong in the eyes of the Kami, my fame takes a hit, it affects something else of mine." then I don't want to give anyone else any ideas, but suffice it to say that that right there is a deal-killer for me simply because I know people too well. But that is mere detail work taht could possibly be hammered out.

I applaud the effort, but see too many problems with your proposal to possibly agree with it as-is. If we could expand it in a way that would be potentially practical to put into code, if we could somehow hammer out the rules in a way that would allow a broad-minded homin to get their own set og perks even if they are in an aligned guild, then we might be able to find a middle ground.

Let me get a good night's sleep to get the brain working again and I might be able to do more brainstorming. For the moment all I can do is point out my concerns as food for thought, and hope you take my complaints as the constructive criticism they are intended to be.


Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#3 [en] 

Replying from bed just to clarify

Im suggesting a second tier of fame

First tier is absolutely unaltered

The second stage is optional

You switch it on if u choose

Try looking at the idea through this lens

Hardcore and casual can both opt in

No major consequence necessary

I like the sense of two types of fame

On paper I am kara 100 fame
Deeper down my actions may or may not grant other perks from any other faction provided I do some action

This can be undone by my own actions as well as to a limited extent others

Try to see no penalties to base mechanics are proposed just something deeper


#4 [en] 

Consider the term "relative advantage".

Think of what perks I can get without getting my hand forced to either leave my friends in RW or play someone I do not want to play unless I want to be at a relative disadvantage.... unless the perks are so minor that they aren't really an incentive.

If one can get perks associated with factions other than their own, the system must not be zero-sum, or else those like me would be at a relative disadvantage for playing how we want to play even if we are hardcore about it.

In the end, faction restrictions on guild membership, if not the factions themselves, need to be revamped in order to make this idea have a chance of working without hurting me and those like me one way or another.

Still intrigued by the concept, but concerned about the details.


Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.

#5 [en] 

Hey Gidget

A good system in my eyes here is meant to keep everyone enterrained without harming or seriously hindering anyone
It would have to be puprosely designed to not be zero-sum

That said, this is entirely possible.

1) mild and moderate rewards (if you're gonna put in the work it can't be only mild, if the idea passes, but nothing to break anyone, its a perk not a giant wall :P)

2) in my idea you'd still (being any fame you are right now) be able to access these mild and moderate perks of whoever you wanted as long as you met certain conditions 

I realise this may piss some people off but it's a legitimate role play option
Should I not be able to convince people, and a faction, that I am somewhat or very loyal to.. 2? 3? 4?

Of course a good system will make this next to impossible (for example, the chances of undoing progress on fame2 are higher if you try to take on something like that - but perhaps you make a good effort to balance everything, and you're quite a good spy so you pull it off)

You could be casual and get in on this, you may find you're intrigued enough to go a bit deeper.
I'll have more time to detail an "if then if then" outlook on it in a few days

We completely ignore our factions and we still keep our friendships in our guilds (nomads) we utilise all the benefits of all the guilds and have no penalities , and I can sweet talk my way into most materials (sorry but it's true and relevant lol)

I would very much enjoy some fair consequences for something more interesting than the boring system we have now that makes people shun each other for "doing it wrong" (be it, being too into it, or being not into it enough, or rolling our eyes at both of those sides)


#6 [en] 


What IS your faction and your guild anyway? Think about it mechanics wise and otherwise.

Mechanics, 100 kara is... a few surface tps, a fair amount of pr tps... and...? a  faction channel that no one cares about? The abiltiy to rub shoulders with special people in outside chats and forums? Let's not pretend the actual forums aren't really used. Oh there are some tribe fames too I guess.

We already behave like the only thing that really matters is our friends, the chat channel in our guild, and a few tps.

You can go to an op and fight for whoever you want. it's already really loose. Calling to tigten existing mechanics will  just upset people.

Adding new mechanics that gives some sort of relevance to dead content can work. Yes, I said it, dead content.

I'm just putting my feelings in very basic terms - I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings who thinks they're some super Kami and goes to all the meetings, goes to all the op battles, or some hardcore roleplayer who won't even smile at your baby because the mama is a fyros and you're a karavan (woops spoilers? lol)

In any case, you can get around the chat channel by making your own dynmaic channel. You can get around the tps by choosing the faction you WANT tps for, you can get around politics by either sucking up, meaning it when you suck up, and by also not participating.

Consequnces (good and bad) can revitalise something and make it fun again for all, not for some, not at the expense of anyone. If done right, I think it can be great.


#7 [en] 


What IS your faction and your guild anyway? Think about it mechanics wise and otherwise.

Mechanics wise, I am Neutral/Kara in a Matis/Kara guild (Rift Walkers).

Otherwise, I am a Hominist (so I can't be Marauder) who feels coerced into having to follow a religion by game mechanics and a desire to hang with my closest friends. For more details on that...

I just want to be able to be Agnostic without being punished. Having chat channels that don't disappear every reset and don't require a / command or macro seems like a pretty big perk, especially for those who are not computer savvy. Using dynamic channels to get around the lack of a guild channel is a logistic nuisance, as any Cookie knows from the number of resets we've had lately. It also requires EVERYONE to take some action simply because ONE person wants to be something that mechanics and lore do not really allow. That may not be a problem for tiny guilds, but RW is far from small. Being able to share a GH is also a perk. Having PR/250 TPs is a tremendous perk too.

So what sort of props do us non-believers get for being true to our heathen selves? It seems to me that all we get is a huge middle finger. Devoted Agnostics are treated the same as those who are too casual to declare an allegiance, so dedication to RP is not a factor in deciding whether you get rewarded or not. The only ones who get any perks for being non-theists are Marauders, who are also anti-everything-else and thus not an option that really attracts me. Rangers are starting to get some love, but if I went Ranger I'd have to convice dozens of people to eschew guild chat in favor of a dynamic channel that they may not have the skill to set up, along with having to pay for a second sub so I could do anything GH-related.

Last edited by Gidget (3 years ago) | Reason: Typos...


Do not assume that you speak for all just because you are the loudest voice; there are many who disagree that simply have no desire to waste words on you.
Last visit Sun Nov 1 01:35:46 2020 UTC

powered by ryzom-api